OA to AF#15,HULK#1,FF#1 WHERE ARE THEY?

[clemso]

Ok. We know that the Original art to Uncanny X-Men #1 (complete) Avengers #1 (broken up) DareDevil #1 (broken up), Journey Into Mystery #83 (broken up), Tales To Astonish #27 and Tales of Suspence #39 (complete) exist. But what about the art to Amazing Fantasy #15, Amazing Spider-Man #1, Hulk #1 and Fantastic Four #1? Any sighting? rumours? Stories?

I am sure they exist and are out there.

 

Clem....

[Mister Trent]

Ok. We know that the Original art to Uncanny X-Men #1 (complete) Avengers #1 (broken up) DareDevil #1 (broken up), Journey Into Mystery #83 (broken up), Tales To Astonish #27 and Tales of Suspence #39 (complete) exist. But what about the art to Amazing Fantasy #15, Amazing Spider-Man #1, Hulk #1 and Fantastic Four #1? Any sighting? rumours? Stories?

I am sure they exist and are out there.

 

Clem....

 

Oh, plenty of rumours, and I'm sure you're fully aware/heard 'em all before .

[Sharkey]

Ok. We know that the Original art to Uncanny X-Men #1 (complete) Avengers #1 (broken up) DareDevil #1 (broken up), Journey Into Mystery #83 (broken up), Tales To Astonish #27 and Tales of Suspence #39 (complete) exist. But what about the art to Amazing Fantasy #15, Amazing Spider-Man #1, Hulk #1 and Fantastic Four #1? Any sighting? rumours? Stories?

I am sure they exist and are out there.

 

Clem....

 

Oh, plenty of rumours, and I'm sure you're fully aware/heard 'em all before .

 

 

Not all of us may have heard them. Do tell....

[Mister Trent]

Ok. We know that the Original art to Uncanny X-Men #1 (complete) Avengers #1 (broken up) DareDevil #1 (broken up), Journey Into Mystery #83 (broken up), Tales To Astonish #27 and Tales of Suspence #39 (complete) exist. But what about the art to Amazing Fantasy #15, Amazing Spider-Man #1, Hulk #1 and Fantastic Four #1? Any sighting? rumours? Stories?

I am sure they exist and are out there.

 

Clem....

 

Oh, plenty of rumours, and I'm sure you're fully aware/heard 'em all before .

 

 

Not all of us may have heard them. Do tell....

 

E-mail me privately.

[JohnBull]

Ok. We know that the Original art to Uncanny X-Men #1 (complete) Avengers #1 (broken up) DareDevil #1 (broken up), Journey Into Mystery #83 (broken up), Tales To Astonish #27 and Tales of Suspence #39 (complete) exist. But what about the art to Amazing Fantasy #15, Amazing Spider-Man #1, Hulk #1 and Fantastic Four #1? Any sighting? rumours? Stories?

I am sure they exist and are out there.

 

Clem....

 

Oh, plenty of rumours, and I'm sure you're fully aware/heard 'em all before .

 

 

Not all of us may have heard them. Do tell....

 

E-mail me privately.

 

Is that a one off invitation?

[Mister Trent]

Ok. We know that the Original art to Uncanny X-Men #1 (complete) Avengers #1 (broken up) DareDevil #1 (broken up), Journey Into Mystery #83 (broken up), Tales To Astonish #27 and Tales of Suspence #39 (complete) exist. But what about the art to Amazing Fantasy #15, Amazing Spider-Man #1, Hulk #1 and Fantastic Four #1? Any sighting? rumours? Stories?

I am sure they exist and are out there.

 

Clem....

 

Oh, plenty of rumours, and I'm sure you're fully aware/heard 'em all before .

 

 

Not all of us may have heard them. Do tell....

 

E-mail me privately.

 

Is that a one off invitation?

 

No, but as the leaning is towards rumour, I don't think it's a good idea to publically dwell on such things. Anyway, it's all been discussed on comicart-l, and Doc Vassallo mentioned it on the Kirby list earlier this year.

[clemso]

Terry,

I am in and out of the hobby so I like to ask in case I've missed something, but if you have something to tell. Do send me a private e-mail too.I don't recall Doc V saying anything so I guess I did miss out.

 

Clem..

[action1kid]

Dosnt Krazykat say he has all that stuff?

[Aces]

Dosnt Krazykat say he has all that stuff?

 

That explains it!

[heartened]

Most outsiders to the original art hobby feel that one of the major limitations of the hobby is the "old boys' network", that they view to be in place. There really is no such thing, but certainly the collectors who have been doing this a long time have more information than others. And, for some reason, certain aspects of this information are taboo or spoken in hushed voices.

 

I'd suggest you (or someone who knows the details) just state what the consensus is on these historic early covers/art. No one really cares about who is or was involved in "acquiring" them at this point.

[Sharkey]

Most outsiders to the original art hobby feel that one of the major limitations of the hobby is the "old boys' network", that they view to be in place. There really is no such thing, but certainly the collectors who have been doing this a long time have more information than others. And, for some reason, certain aspects of this information are taboo or spoken in hushed voices.

 

I'd suggest you (or someone who knows the details) just state what the consensus is on these historic early covers/art. No one really cares about who is or was involved in "acquiring" them at this point.

 

 

Hari, once again you've hit the nail on the head. I would love to have a way of knowing what is or is not still "out there." For example, since I posted the note about looking for the cover of TOS 8, I've received numerous communications from people. Some contend that the art was destroyed and that none (or maybe only a couple) of the pre-hero covers made it though; others say it's definitely still out there, but locked up in collectors vaults. So until people are willing to come out and let people know what they have, there will always be questions.

 

Although there may not be an official "old boys club" there are definitely people who've been collecting a long time who have stashes of art that have not seen the light of day. Some of that may or may not have been acquired from the Marvel warehouse years ago, but some of the people are slightly paranoid that if they have unstamped art that it may be suspect. Of course, that's ludicrous -- nobody is going to go back and prosecute people for having art that wasn't part of the great artist return program of the early 1980s, after all Marvel used to give kids pages of original art just for visiting the offices back in the day.

 

I believe that there are long-time collectors and dealers who have key pages of art and they have colleagues and acquaintances who know about it, but they tend to keep it to themselves. I don't know if that qualifies as "old boys club" or not, but there does seem to be some tight-lipped groups who don't disclose what others own. I can understand and respect that if that's the wish of the owner.

 

The other problems are that collectors don't want to disclose what they have for a number of reasons: they may be concerned about potential theft, they may not want numerous people contacting them with unsolicited offers to buy or trade, or they may just be private about their collecting. And there are others who are willing to make grandiose claims about what they own but refuse to offer proof in the form of a picture or scan.

 

Sadly, I'm afraid we may never know the extent of what does or does not still exist.

[Mister Trent]

Most outsiders to the original art hobby feel that one of the major limitations of the hobby is the "old boys' network", that they view to be in place. There really is no such thing, but certainly the collectors who have been doing this a long time have more information than others. And, for some reason, certain aspects of this information are taboo or spoken in hushed voices.

 

I'd suggest you (or someone who knows the details) just state what the consensus is on these historic early covers/art. No one really cares about who is or was involved in "acquiring" them at this point.

 

Hari

 

the general concensus is that a lot of the early Marvel (key) stories were stolen to order via a corrupt Marvel employee. I've heard one or two names mentioned, as recipents for this art - as I'm sure you're fully aware yourself - but without concrete-proof, naming names of prime suspects in a public forum could be seen as libellous (hence the hushed tones).

 

Nothing secretive or 'old boys network' from my stance. Clem asked the question regarding stories, rumours, etc - which was probably intended to prompt a few words from one of our other members who may well have first-hand information. I simply responded to the effect that the stories of what happened to the early Marvel books are fairly well known.

 

Doc Vassallo made some interesting discussions on the Marvel art thefts earlier this year on the Kirby list (Doc had some first-hand info himself, from what I recall). I don't have the time or inclination to trawl through those archives right now, but there's nothing to stop others from doing so.

 

Best

 

Terry Doyle

[TLC55555]

the general concensus is that a lot of the early Marvel (key) stories were stolen to order via a corrupt Marvel employee. I've heard one or two names mentioned, as recipents for this art - as I'm sure you're fully aware yourself - but without concrete-proof, naming names of prime suspects in a public forum could be seen as libellous (hence the hushed tones).

 

So, I guess someone that had a collection of this possibly stolen art wouldn't want others to see it?

[Sharkey]

Most outsiders to the original art hobby feel that one of the major limitations of the hobby is the "old boys' network", that they view to be in place. There really is no such thing, but certainly the collectors who have been doing this a long time have more information than others. And, for some reason, certain aspects of this information are taboo or spoken in hushed voices.

 

I'd suggest you (or someone who knows the details) just state what the consensus is on these historic early covers/art. No one really cares about who is or was involved in "acquiring" them at this point.

 

Hari

 

the general concensus is that a lot of the early Marvel (key) stories were stolen to order via a corrupt Marvel employee. I've heard one or two names mentioned, as recipents for this art - as I'm sure you're fully aware yourself - but without concrete-proof, naming names of prime suspects in a public forum could be seen as libellous (hence the hushed tones).

 

Nothing secretive or 'old boys network' from my stance. Clem asked the question regarding stories, rumours, etc - which was probably intended to prompt a few words from one of our other members who may well have first-hand information. I simply responded to the effect that the stories of what happened to the early Marvel books are fairly well known.

 

Doc Vassallo made some interesting discussions on the Marvel art thefts earlier this year on the Kirby list (Doc had some first-hand info himself, from what I recall). I don't have the time or inclination to trawl through those archives right now, but there's nothing to stop others from doing so.

 

Best

 

Terry Doyle

 

Terry, I agree that the whole stolen art situation is a big part of the anonymity, but I doubt that the owners of said art have anything to fear. First off, it would be hard to prove which art was stolen, because to my knowledge no formal, complete, and concrete inventory of the stolen art has been created, so how can anyone prove what are was stolen vs what art was floating around the marketplace? Second, many of the people who would or could have corroborated or even made claim of ownership of the art are now dead. Third, there's no way to know how much of the stolen art has been passed around and sold to other people who have no idea that the art my have a dubious provenance.

 

So although this belief that there may be repercussions is pervasive, I doubt it's any type of real threat to the owners.

 

Perhaps some of the attorneys on the boards can correct me if I'm way off base here.

[JohnBull]

Most outsiders to the original art hobby feel that one of the major limitations of the hobby is the "old boys' network", that they view to be in place. There really is no such thing, but certainly the collectors who have been doing this a long time have more information than others. And, for some reason, certain aspects of this information are taboo or spoken in hushed voices.

 

I'd suggest you (or someone who knows the details) just state what the consensus is on these historic early covers/art. No one really cares about who is or was involved in "acquiring" them at this point.

 

Hari

 

the general concensus is that a lot of the early Marvel (key) stories were stolen to order via a corrupt Marvel employee. I've heard one or two names mentioned, as recipents for this art - as I'm sure you're fully aware yourself - but without concrete-proof, naming names of prime suspects in a public forum could be seen as libellous (hence the hushed tones).

 

Nothing secretive or 'old boys network' from my stance. Clem asked the question regarding stories, rumours, etc - which was probably intended to prompt a few words from one of our other members who may well have first-hand information. I simply responded to the effect that the stories of what happened to the early Marvel books are fairly well known.

 

Doc Vassallo made some interesting discussions on the Marvel art thefts earlier this year on the Kirby list (Doc had some first-hand info himself, from what I recall). I don't have the time or inclination to trawl through those archives right now, but there's nothing to stop others from doing so.

 

Best

 

Terry Doyle

 

Terry, I agree that the whole stolen art situation is a big part of the anonymity, but I doubt that the owners of said art have anything to fear. First off, it would be hard to prove which art was stolen, because to my knowledge no formal, complete, and concrete inventory of the stolen art has been created, so how can anyone prove what are was stolen vs what art was floating around the marketplace? Second, many of the people who would or could have corroborated or even made claim of ownership of the art are now dead. Third, there's no way to know how much of the stolen art has been passed around and sold to other people who have no idea that the art my have a dubious provenance.

 

So although this belief that there may be repercussions is pervasive, I doubt it's any type of real threat to the owners.

 

Perhaps some of the attorneys on the boards can correct me if I'm way off base here.

 

Wouldn't this come down to a Statute of Limitations basis? Let's say that you have a page that was stolen. The artist may or may not be dead, but the art belonged to Marvel at the time of creation. You can categorically show that it was never sold on the open market and as far as Marvel are concerened, it went missing in 19xx.

 

If 19xx is far enough back, isn't that the end of it in US law? If it was stolen in 1999, you might be in trouble, but if it went in 1979, well, that's water under the bridge, surely?

 

What is the Statute in US law. Six or seven years?

[mrwoogieman]

Most outsiders to the original art hobby feel that one of the major limitations of the hobby is the "old boys' network", that they view to be in place. There really is no such thing, but certainly the collectors who have been doing this a long time have more information than others. And, for some reason, certain aspects of this information are taboo or spoken in hushed voices.

 

I'd suggest you (or someone who knows the details) just state what the consensus is on these historic early covers/art. No one really cares about who is or was involved in "acquiring" them at this point.

 

Hari

 

the general concensus is that a lot of the early Marvel (key) stories were stolen to order via a corrupt Marvel employee. I've heard one or two names mentioned, as recipents for this art - as I'm sure you're fully aware yourself - but without concrete-proof, naming names of prime suspects in a public forum could be seen as libellous (hence the hushed tones).

 

Nothing secretive or 'old boys network' from my stance. Clem asked the question regarding stories, rumours, etc - which was probably intended to prompt a few words from one of our other members who may well have first-hand information. I simply responded to the effect that the stories of what happened to the early Marvel books are fairly well known.

 

Doc Vassallo made some interesting discussions on the Marvel art thefts earlier this year on the Kirby list (Doc had some first-hand info himself, from what I recall). I don't have the time or inclination to trawl through those archives right now, but there's nothing to stop others from doing so.

 

Best

 

Terry Doyle

 

Terry, I agree that the whole stolen art situation is a big part of the anonymity, but I doubt that the owners of said art have anything to fear. First off, it would be hard to prove which art was stolen, because to my knowledge no formal, complete, and concrete inventory of the stolen art has been created, so how can anyone prove what are was stolen vs what art was floating around the marketplace? Second, many of the people who would or could have corroborated or even made claim of ownership of the art are now dead. Third, there's no way to know how much of the stolen art has been passed around and sold to other people who have no idea that the art my have a dubious provenance.

 

So although this belief that there may be repercussions is pervasive, I doubt it's any type of real threat to the owners.

 

Perhaps some of the attorneys on the boards can correct me if I'm way off base here.

 

Wouldn't this come down to a Statute of Limitations basis? Let's say that you have a page that was stolen. The artist may or may not be dead, but the art belonged to Marvel at the time of creation. You can categorically show that it was never sold on the open market and as far as Marvel are concerened, it went missing in 19xx.

 

If 19xx is far enough back, isn't that the end of it in US law? If it was stolen in 1999, you might be in trouble, but if it went in 1979, well, that's water under the bridge, surely?

 

What is the Statute in US law. Six or seven years?

 

There are some laws on the books that stay the statute of limitations from running on paintings and such until the item is discovered or something like that.

 

Someone who knows more than just what I've posted can more fully explain the details, of course.

 

But, if memory serves, this is how people can still sue to recover their artwork after it was stolen by the Nazis or the Soviet army. When it turns up, that's when the statute actually begins to run. At least I'm pretty sure that's the holdup from people coming forward and saying things like, "look at this great ASM 3 cover art that I bought off the back of a truck 32 years ago."

[JohnBull]

Maybe, but I suspect those laws were designed to stop genociding Nazis from stealing from their Jewish victims, rather than some guy stealing the art to a comic book.

 

Paging the lawyers....

[pkveronese]

Is there a checklist of the SA keys somebody could do to signify what might still be out there and what was more than likely destroyed/otherwise unaccounted for(hearsay or otherwise)? I don't want you to name names or anything, but it would be cool to have a better idea of what exists at all. Forgive me if this is a pretty much unanswerable query. Thanks! - Keith

[Norrin_Radd]

Here's the earliest SA Marvel cover I've seen.....

 

[Norrin_Radd]

Doc Vassallo made some interesting discussions on the Marvel art thefts earlier this year on the Kirby list (Doc had some first-hand info himself, from what I recall). I don't have the time or inclination to trawl through those archives right now, but there's nothing to stop others from doing so.

 

And where are these Kirby list archives?