Questions about a Conserved CA #8 (1941) 1 1

[Laszlo the Mudjar]

So, I found an early Captain America book that looks great, but I was wondering if anyone here can offer more insight regarding "cleaning".  Is it possible CGC cleaned it and put the label on?  If CGC didn't do the cleaning how can one tell if a comic is professionally cleaned?  If I cracked the case and my grandkids submitted the book in 2050 to CGC would the graders still know it had been cleaned? 

Anyways, just curious what info folks here have about detecting "cleaning".

 

Thanks.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/352529038930?ff3=2&toolid=10044&campid=5338302747&customid=&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466&item=352529038930&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&ufes_redirect=true

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Laszlo the Mudjar

[Laszlo the Mudjar]

On 12/19/2021 at 11:00 AM, BottomFeeder said:

The label refers to chemical cleaning, not dry cleaning. 

• CLEANING – There are three basic types of cleaning; water, solvent and dry. Dry cleaning is not considered restoration. Solvent cleaning involves soaking a cover or pages in a chemical bath to remove certain kinds of tanning or foreign substance. Water cleaning involves a water bath that may contain chemicals that whiten or deacidify paper, or aids in the removal of stains, tanning and creases.

Do you know if that type of cleaning can be detected?

[Grottu]

Could be a number of possibilities, including up-front disclosure to CGC by whoever submitted the book for grading (common if you’re trying to avoid a purple label). In terms of physical evidence, it’s a matter of feel, smell and appearance. Solvents and aqueous baths can leave residual odor, excessive whitening or floppy/coarse texture.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Grottu

[Sauce Dog]

A very good case is that it was disclosed by the pro who did the work.

It might very well be undetectable, but all pros would be providing an itemized list of all work done to a book and the materials/processes used when submitting to CGC.

[Sauce Dog]

On 12/20/2021 at 1:37 PM, BottomFeeder said:

I would think only dry cleaning can't be detected.

Dry cleaning can be detected if done poorly, but at that point it's less about noticing the 'dry cleaning' itself and more about noticing the defects it created (slight color lift in areas, gloss is lessened or outright removed - especially white areas, stroke lines from cleaning, small amount of residue/putty from Absorene left on the page that the cleaner missed)

Edited December 23, 2021 by Sauce Dog

[miraclemet]

What cleaning constitutes conservation rather than restoration? 

My understanding is that acts of conservation are done to halt the process of degradation of the book. 
Example: Putting a tear seal on a tear halts that tear from growing as it has created a weak point in the paper that could be easily further ripped. 

What cleaning halts degradation? 
The only thing I can think is if there's mold and the cleaning was to remove the mold... 

[gadzukes]

What a gorgeous comic.

For the cleaning to be done, the comic has to be disassembled, right?

[KCOComics]

On 1/4/2022 at 9:05 AM, miraclemet said:

What cleaning constitutes conservation rather than restoration? 

My understanding is that acts of conservation are done to halt the process of degradation of the book. 
Example: Putting a tear seal on a tear halts that tear from growing as it has created a weak point in the paper that could be easily further ripped. 

What cleaning halts degradation? 
The only thing I can think is if there's mold and the cleaning was to remove the mold... 

I imagine removing dirt, mold, rust stains and mildew will help conserve the paper over it's life. 

[Sauce Dog]

On 1/4/2022 at 10:13 AM, KCOComics said:

I imagine removing dirt, mold, rust stains and mildew will help conserve the paper over it's life. 

 

On 1/4/2022 at 9:05 AM, miraclemet said:

What cleaning constitutes conservation rather than restoration? 

My understanding is that acts of conservation are done to halt the process of degradation of the book. 
Example: Putting a tear seal on a tear halts that tear from growing as it has created a weak point in the paper that could be easily further ripped. 

What cleaning halts degradation? 
The only thing I can think is if there's mold and the cleaning was to remove the mold... 

Specifically the big thing to do is correcting the pH of the paper. Paper that is even slightly acidic will have already begun deteriorating by the time someone has it slabbed.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Sauce Dog

[FFB]

On 12/20/2021 at 4:58 AM, Grottu said:

Could be a number of possibilities, including up-front disclosure to CGC by whoever submitted the book for grading (common if you’re trying to avoid a purple label). In terms of physical evidence, it’s a matter of feel, smell and appearance. Solvents and aqueous baths can leave residual odor, excessive whitening or floppy/coarse texture.

All of this is true, plus, it's usually apparent by looking at the staples at the centerfold whether the book was taken apart or not, which you really have to do if you are going to wash a cover in a solvent or aqueous solution. 

If the grader sees wonky staples and paper that looks frayed next to the staples, plus the appearance of a texture change in the paper, reduction in gloss/reflectivity, etc., then they know the book was washed.  Tidelines might also remain after the washing, or a faded stain that appears to be lighter than it once was.  There are a laundry list of things you can look for.  

[FFB]

On 1/4/2022 at 6:05 AM, miraclemet said:

What cleaning constitutes conservation rather than restoration? 

My understanding is that acts of conservation are done to halt the process of degradation of the book. 
Example: Putting a tear seal on a tear halts that tear from growing as it has created a weak point in the paper that could be easily further ripped. 

What cleaning halts degradation? 
The only thing I can think is if there's mold and the cleaning was to remove the mold... 

If you introduce a buffering agent to increase the ph of the wash solution, the resulting paper will be less acidic when you are done and will have a reserve of the buffering agent within the washed paper.  In theory, this should slow the acidification of the paper in the future.