What Makes a Villain Transcend the Ordinary?

[chrisco37]

chrisco37 ....I am your Father.....'s brother's mother's uncle's cousin's baby's daddy!!!!!

 

So what does that make us?

[october]

I know, you are going to tear me a new one. Who is Ultron?

 

Any relation to Voltron? Now that show was cool!

 

Only the "Cat Voltron". "Car Voltron" sucked.

 

Who wants to know about Ultraman?

 

[Timulty]

Absolutely nothing at all!!!

[chrisco37]

Absolutely nothing at all!!!

 

[sterlingcomics]

For me, it's a villian (or situation for protagonist) that provides a threat that is insurmountable, and causes the very foundation of the protagonists to be changed forever. My favorite villian during my reading years was Trigon from New Teen Titans. He literally caused Hell on Earth! The interesting plot details between the villian and protagonists helped lure me in as a reader, and creates a layered texture of complexity (such as the fact that Raven was Trigon's daughter and she had to fight the evil urges) that is beyound some of the simplistic villian story-lines usually portrayed in some titles. (hero gets bad guy, bad guy does not add depth, etc).

 

This is also why I think Superman II was the best movie of the series--an actual threat, the protagonist at his weakest point, yet somehow beats the odds...but at a loss. The element of tragedy should be there.

[deathlok]

I know, you are going to tear me a new one. Who is Ultron?

 

Ultron is one of the Avengers most feared foes. Each time he appears (each new model is followed by a number, hence Ultron V, Ultron VI) he creates quite a bit of damage.

 

[deathlok]

For me, it's a villian (or situation for protagonist) that provides a threat that is insurmountable, and causes the very foundation of the protagonists to be changed forever. My favorite villian during my reading years was Trigon from New Teen Titans. He literally caused Hell on Earth! The interesting plot details between the villian and protagonists helped lure me in as a reader, and creates a layered texture of complexity (such as the fact that Raven was Trigon's daughter and she had to fight the evil urges) that is beyound some of the simplistic villian story-lines usually portrayed in some titles. (hero gets bad guy, bad guy does not add depth, etc).

 

This is also why I think Superman II was the best movie of the series--an actual threat, the protagonist at his weakest point, yet somehow beats the odds...but at a loss.

 

I sorta agree with what you say, but why would the hero have to be changed forever? Especially when you consider villains that just exist, like Deathstroke or Thanos. They really don't change each hero they face.

[sterlingcomics]

I sorta agree with what you say, but why would the hero have to be changed forever? Especially when you consider villains that just exist, like Deathstroke or Thanos. They really don't change each hero they face.

 

True. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it isn't a "business as usual" encounter...something changes (either the attitude or something within the life of the protagonist). I guess I was being melodramic with "forever". I just got the sense when I read the Trigon story line that things "would never be the same". And they weren't. It's that type of tragedy, hopelessness, hope, and overcome wave of storytelling that really does it for me personally-much like a Greek tragedy. Whether it is the villian or storytelling--that is what attracts me to the story. Keep in mind that the "villian" need not be an actual person. For example, Iron Man's villian was his alcoholism that was dealt with as he fought real villains.

[Timulty]

Never heard of Ole' Ultron heard of Galactus though.

[october]

I like sheer malevolence in a villian....and real power. That's why I favor Thanos, Darkseid, The Destroyer, Galactus, and Ultron over run-of-the-mill losers in costumes like The Green Goblin and Bullseye. Kinda hard to compete with a villian who threatens the known universe on a regular basis when the scariest thing you can do is throw an explosive pumpkin.

[sterlingcomics]

yes---power. To kick every arse in the room before he completes breakfast. I'd also add "fear" to a villian attribute. Which is why some of these ludicrous villians with their bright tights from DC silverage really make me laugh.

[tilleycs]

Another trait that makes a great villain is motive. Why is a villain doing what he is doing? There are many reasons for commiting a crime or act of violence, but the motive is developed the deeper the character becomes.

 

On the other hand, you take a villain like Ultron. Whose motive is to rule the world, a simple and oft used motive, but effective nonetheless. This makes him much more than a simple thief.

 

True, and good point about wanting to rule the world. There are several villains that I can think of off-hand that want to rule the world (Ultron, Magneto, Dr. Doom, Red Skull - I'm sure there are a ton more), and they each want to do it for a different reason. Like you said, pursuing the "Why?" behind it is what helps flesh out their character(s).

 

Insurmountable villains are good, but can only be used sparingly. Galactus is one of my favorite villains, but he can't obviously come back to Earth every other issue with, "O.k, I lied, I'm back. I'm hungry and I'm going to eat the world. Really gonna do it this time. Seriously!"

 

If they're too big/powerful, they can price themselves out of the market, so to speak. Onslaught, for example. Not like he can go from fighting every hero in the Marvel Universe at the same time one month to fighting Daredevil solo the next month.

[october]

yes---power. To kick every arse in the room before he completes breakfast. I'd also add "fear" to a villian attribute. Which is why some of these ludicrous villians from DC silverage really make me laugh.

 

Yep, fear, I agree with that. Some of Ghostrider's villians were pretty scary to a young 11 yead old October back in the day. I remember Balckheart and Deathwatch especially.

[tilleycs]

I like sheer malevolence in a villian....and real power. That's why I favor Thanos, Darkseid, The Destroyer, Galactus, and Ultron over run-of-the-mill losers in costumes like The Green Goblin and Bullseye. Kinda hard to compete with a villian who threatens the known universe on a regular basis when the scariest thing you can do is throw an explosive pumpkin.

 

True, but there's also the issue of which hero the villain will be fighting. Spider-Man obviously should be fighting guys like Thanos, Galactus, Ultron, etc. on his own, while teams like the Avengers need heavy hitters like Ultron to give them something formidable. FF vs the GG isn't really much of a match-up.

[october]

I like sheer malevolence in a villian....and real power. That's why I favor Thanos, Darkseid, The Destroyer, Galactus, and Ultron over run-of-the-mill losers in costumes like The Green Goblin and Bullseye. Kinda hard to compete with a villian who threatens the known universe on a regular basis when the scariest thing you can do is throw an explosive pumpkin.

 

True, but there's also the issue of which hero the villain will be fighting. Spider-Man obviously should be fighting guys like Thanos, Galactus, Ultron, etc. on his own, while teams like the Avengers need heavy hitters like Ultron to give them something formidable. FF vs the GG isn't really much of a match-up.

 

I know, I just don't really care for the more "mundane" villians, as they don't bring a whole lot to the table for me. It's just a matter of personal preference. When I read superhero books (which isn't that often) I like to either read:

 

1. Gritty and "realistic" stuff like DKR/Watchman/V/ you know the type

 

or

 

2. Stories that are cosmic in scope like The Infinity Gauntlet or Thor & Beta Ray stories.

 

Basically the 60s Spiderman stuff is exactly the kind of thing I DON'T look for.

[tilleycs]

2. Stories that are cosmic in scope like The Infinity Gauntlet or Thor & Beta Ray stories.

 

Gotcha. To each his own. I usually find the cosmic mega-events disappointing, especially if they try to cram every hero in the MU into the series. I read them out of curiosity, but usually find them lacking. SS issues with some of the cosmic heavy hitters like Galactus, Thanos, Terrax, etc. are good reading material.

 

Basically the 60s Spiderman stuff is exactly the kind of thing I DON'T look for.

 

I'm not a big Spider-Man fan, but I think the stuff from the 60's was a good fit for where he was as a character back then (and where Marvel was, for that matter). Decent reading material, but not something I collect.

[october]

2. Stories that are cosmic in scope like The Infinity Gauntlet or Thor & Beta Ray stories.

 

Gotcha. To each his own. I usually find the cosmic mega-events disappointing, especially if they try to cram every hero in the MU into the series. I read them out of curiosity, but usually find them lacking. SS issues with some of the cosmic heavy hitters like Galactus, Thanos, Terrax, etc. are good reading material.

 

Yeah, some of those arcs were complete garbage. I still haven't read The End mini series yet though. Any good? Anyone?

[deathlok]

Another trait of a great villain would be competence/intelligence.

 

Competent with his powers/equipment/weapons. Can the villain use their powers/weapons/equipment to their fullest extent? Does the villain have a variety of powers/equipment/weapons for different situations?

 

Does the villain plan his crime? Does he withdraw when faced with superior force/numbers? Does the villain make sound tactical decisions? Does the villain act irrational or out of character?

 

Many of the best villains do these things.

[tilleycs]

I still haven't read The End mini series yet though. Any good? Anyone?

 

No idea, I haven't read any of them. I'd like to, but I haven't gotten around to getting any of them yet.

 

Ditto to whomever said they love the old What If series!! Great series.

[Darthdiesel]

I still haven't read The End mini series yet though. Any good? Anyone?

 

No idea, I haven't read any of them. I'd like to, but I haven't gotten around to getting any of them yet.

 

Ditto to whomever said they love the old What If series!! Great series.

 

I like the Hulk and Punisher one shot The Ends. But wolverine was not as good as I had hoped and the Xmen ones with the multiple books are just dragging and pulling in everythin mutant and all supervillains they may have encountered in the past and current... just a jumble IMO