CGC vs CBCS for restored GA books 1 1

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/4/2022 at 6:19 PM, PovertyRow said:

Actually I was referencing this part of your post. The idea those folk are not as good at detecting resto is, well, to be gentle, incorrect. 

Not based on what I've seen over the past 7 years.

It's disingenuous and/or hyperbolic to say, "CBCS and the company does not know what they are doing", and attribute it to my statement.

[PovertyRow]

On 1/5/2022 at 3:37 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

It's disingenuous and/or hyperbolic to say, "CBCS and the company does not know what they are doing", and attribute it to my statement.

Well saying they are not "as good at detecting resto" would imply that. But perhaps I was too harsh. But "not as good at detecting" certainly leaves a wide field of meaning.

On 1/5/2022 at 3:37 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Not based on what I've seen over the past 7 years.

 

So how many Voldy books have you had in hand to detect the missed or incorrect resto attributions? I don't mean internet word of mouth but actual opportunity to assess for yourself? We both know there are many examples of poor grading etc. on the sides of both companies, yet here GCG almost always get a pass while Voldy often gets slammed vigorously.

Also, as far as their being "delusional" feeling they are superior having one label color... for a long time a debate was raging on there boards with anti and pro color labels. I was anti colored labels like PLOD and GLOD. Yet now CGC has taken a step in the same direction as Voldy with the Conserved label being the same color as a Universal label. Yet not so long ago some things under the Conserved Blue label would have returned a PLOD. Lovely consistency there.

[Prince Namor]

On 1/7/2022 at 5:06 PM, PovertyRow said:

Well saying they are not "as good at detecting resto" would imply that. But perhaps I was too harsh. But "not as good at detecting" certainly leaves a wide field of meaning.

Critical assessment or knowledgeable review has been replaced in our society by amateur internet opinion based upon individual 'feel'. Social media and the Internet are full of more opinion and less actual knowledge than any time in my life. We're surrounded by a generation that uses Wikipedia as a reference of validated information!

On 1/7/2022 at 5:06 PM, PovertyRow said:

So how many Voldy books have you had in hand to detect the missed or incorrect resto attributions? I don't mean internet word of mouth but actual opportunity to assess for yourself?

Exactly. Unfortunately, this forum is now full of people who 'know' because of what they've been told, and NOT from actual long term experience themselves. Many of those real experts, sadly, are no longer on this forum...

On 1/7/2022 at 5:06 PM, PovertyRow said:

We both know there are many examples of poor grading etc. on the sides of both companies, yet here GCG almost always get a pass while Voldy often gets slammed vigorously.

Yep. Like ANY company or individual who makes a living by accessing an opinion on grade or restoration, done in a massive quantity assembly line of multi graders - is going to have mistakes. And CGC, like all of them, have made some MASSIVE mistakes.

This new generation of know-it-alls either doesn't remember - wasn't around - or chooses to ignore some of the HUGE controversies over the years that we had here on these exact topics. 

As you know, many of the past experts realized exactly what you're saying, and NEVER would've given CGC a pass - not because of any vendetta against them (well.. mostly), but because they wanted to see consistency in what CGC was doing because of how it affects the marketplace, and the confidence of the BUYERS. They wanted the TRUTH, and they wanted ACCOUNTABILITY.

NOT, some rah rah, my team is better than your team BS.

On 1/7/2022 at 5:06 PM, PovertyRow said:

Also, as far as their being "delusional" feeling they are superior having one label color... for a long time a debate was raging on there boards with anti and pro color labels. I was anti colored labels like PLOD and GLOD. Yet now CGC has taken a step in the same direction as Voldy with the Conserved label being the same color as a Universal label. Yet not so long ago some things under the Conserved Blue label would have returned a PLOD. Lovely consistency there.

Perfect example.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/7/2022 at 5:06 PM, PovertyRow said:

Well saying they are not "as good at detecting resto" would imply that. But perhaps I was too harsh. But "not as good at detecting" certainly leaves a wide field of meaning.

So how many Voldy books have you had in hand to detect the missed or incorrect resto attributions? I don't mean internet word of mouth but actual opportunity to assess for yourself? We both know there are many examples of poor grading etc. on the sides of both companies, yet here GCG almost always get a pass while Voldy often gets slammed vigorously.

Also, as far as their being "delusional" feeling they are superior having one label color... for a long time a debate was raging on there boards with anti and pro color labels. I was anti colored labels like PLOD and GLOD. Yet now CGC has taken a step in the same direction as Voldy with the Conserved label being the same color as a Universal label. Yet not so long ago some things under the Conserved Blue label would have returned a PLOD. Lovely consistency there.

My statement does not imply that they 'know nothing', simply that they are not as apt as CGC when it comes to the assessment. If someone scores a 95% on a test, they are not as apt as those who scored 99%, for example. That does not mean the former does not understand the material at all.

I do not give CGC a pass. I do my best to be impartial.

[Prince Namor]

On 1/7/2022 at 5:06 PM, PovertyRow said:

Well saying they are not "as good at detecting resto" would imply that. But perhaps I was too harsh. But "not as good at detecting" certainly leaves a wide field of meaning.

There are people making statements like "not as good at detecting resto", who not only have zero experience in this part of the hobby - who have no HISTORY in this part of the hobby - but who don't even UNDERSTAND the history of this part of the hobby.

Truth is, most of this conversation, between the majority of players, is simply about money and positioning in the marketplace.

Real collectors who actually discuss the factual issues with either companies abilities know that it's pretty similar - the differences are in CGC's position - they have a 13 year head start on their first real competition in the market and thus, a) a stronger foothold on the high dollar market and b) a huge number of books already out there in the high dollar market. They're more concerned over the issues CGC has had over the years, and want answers in regards to fixing them, for the good of the hobby.

The collector/sellers - the one's who buy and move these books have a different view... they understand CGC's headstart as well and use that to their advantage (and I don't mean that in a negative light - it IS an advantage) - one of the ways to increase your value of the books you have on the market is to make people BELIEVE that the company you choose to encapsulate your multi-million dollar collection is far and away the more qualified one to be handling it. CGC have a proven track record in actual sales, which to the collector/sellers, mostly, is all that matters.

Then you have the collector/sellers and the collectors both who use either, because they realize that... well, not sure I can say why here, but...

Truth is... there's no statistics that prove one is better than the other at resto. There's either unsubstantiated brown-nosed hyperbole or marketplace bias that generally tilts the opinion.

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

I would challenge Chuck to name 1 of the mythical people he's referring to, but I know that he's making baseless statements, which is too bad because some of what he's saying is not false. It's just too bad that he opens up the ability to discredit his opinion when submitting hasty generalizations.

[TC33]

CBCS has done top quality resto detection, their grading is fair/consistent and I have not noticed anything slip through over there or listing incorrect things done to a book which were never done like cleaning or trimming, but put on the label anyway just to be safe like CGC has done to me.  CGC is king for moderns and most high dollar silver/GA, but from dozens of resto submissions the past few years, CBCS has had better quality control on grading/detailing resto for me.  Maybe some newer graders at CGC have now been better trained, but I still have a bad taste in my mouth from some lack of consistency in resto grading, even when re-submitting the same book restored by Matt Nelson many years prior and getting a totally different grade, label notes and quality of resto designation!  The CGC case is a littler nicer than the CBCS one, but some people prefer the blue CBCS resto label vs. the CGC PLOD that has a bad stigma, but that's just a personal preference.  I do like the CGC conserved label, if a book fit that category, I would take that option every time and make a big note that the conserved label is what you are shooting for so you don't get the purple one by mistake!  

[TC33]

On 1/13/2022 at 12:23 PM, AhsokaTano Jedi Apprentice said:

I love this conversation ..very insightful.....The Dreaded Purple Label...I got 3 back 5 years ago and they were all  C-1  I wonder financially how much they drop in price, I've heard many different theories .50 percent...75 percent almost a 100 percent   Like others were saying when you see a book with a purple label you just move on no matter what the price, I am glad to see though that there is more interests in these books if the price is right.....can anybody weigh in on that ? Also about using CBCS vs CGC I do believe you stand a chance more often than not on getting a slightly higher grade but I believe and I've seen when 2 exact same comics are auctioned side by side with the same grade the CGC slabbed book will go for more than the CBCS graded book and sometimes the amount is substantial. That seems to be something I've seen several times and I wonder what other people think of that. Lastly I'm very old school and I just won't bid on books graded by CBCS because I think when and If you ever go to sell them you'll get more money from a book slabbed by CGC.....but what do I know I'm just a newbie.

What you say is especially true on modern books.   People love moderns graded by CGC and while CBCS moderns do OK especially on the really hot books, you are still much better off going CGC rather than taking the chance at essentially the same grading price/cost.  However, CBCS has a much shorter/quicker back log, so if that is important it might be a good option.  On silver/GA, the price difference is not as much, so you are probably OK with either company, but if it's a big time holy grail, you probably want to lean towards CGC.  If it's restored, a lot of people with significant experience between the two have gravitated more towards CBCS the past few years although there are plenty of CGC purists that don't like to go to the competitor regardless, but many of those purists don't like to collect restored books very often anyway, that's why they are purists.      

[jimhouston1]

I have some Golden Age Batman CGC Graded “Blue With Notes”. Notes are  “very slight color touch” or “small amount of glue on spine”. I am very happy they are not in the Restored PLOD label slabs. I replaced most of my Restored comics and even had Resto Removed on some comics and took the hit of getting back comics with lower grades. 
I really do not like the Purple Labels. 

[Grottu]

These hypothetical issues now have a little more solidity, since I decided to submit a restored Superman 16 to CBCS and just got back the grade (if restoration gives you acid reflux, avert your gaze, since this one was extensive). While I'm happy with the number grade, there were a couple things about the grader's notes that have me rethinking my concerns with CGC's purple label. I'll certainly try CBCS again, but I intend to submit my next restoration to CGC.

In short, the 0.5 comic I worked on and then submitted was graded by CBCS as a 2.5 Restored. I'll take it! This is a hobby for me, and I get a kick out of seeing what's possible with very damaged poor-condition books (I prefer conservation, though sometimes major restoration is defensible if the copy is totally trashed). I'm undoubtedly an "amateur" in the sense that I don't do this as a business -- and it's not as if there's a certification required -- but I use "professional" materials and methods like leaf-casting, acrylics, etc., which are determining factors in grading.

 

So, here are my quibbles with CBCS's grading: the notes mention one material that I, in fact, did not use and mischaracterized another material that I did use (I had included a description of the work done and materials used when I submitted the book). Together, these items I believe are primarily why the work was labeled as amateur. Now, CGC used to also rely on a simple binary designation of amateur or professional before moving to the ABC/1-5 system -- A being professional, C amateur and B something in-between. Two badly damaged books I restored for a friend came back from CGC as A-3 and B-5, respectively, which I think better captures the nuances.

 

Anyway, it's not like this was a high-dollar item and I have no reputation to lose, so I can live with it. But it does give me some additional things to think about when weighing CGC versus CBCS grading of restored comics. I haven't got the slabbed book back yet, and didn't bother getting it imaged, but here's a before-and-after...

 

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Grottu

[William-James88]

On 12/31/2021 at 10:05 AM, Grottu said:

I HATE the color variations of CGC labels and the stigma that attaches to some of them...

I don't think it matters anymore. Purple labels on rare GA books still sell for a bunch. 

[William-James88]

On 1/20/2022 at 4:01 PM, AhsokaTano Jedi Apprentice said:

Is there a formula for determining cash value of a Purple Label Comic ? So I have a copy of TOS # 41 and it's graded as a 2.5  Do I look up on Overstreet ? Find value and let's say your book is a ( Slight C-1 ) Do I just deduct 75 percent of Overstreet ? Or are there other ways and methods of determining cash value on these kind of books ? Any opinions would be greatly appreciated. Maybe there just isn't any interests in these kind of graded books...meaning after the stigma of the Dreaded Purple Label is attached to them. They in no uncertain terms become worthless ? Is that a possibility ? 

There is no clear formula. These TOS books are not rare so they become quite undesirable in Purple Label.

If you do a "buy it now" type listing, I do think 75% off is fair. But as always, we'll only know the true market value if you put them up for auction.

[shadroch]

On 1/19/2022 at 2:21 PM, AhsokaTano Jedi Apprentice said:

ii

I'll take all of them off your hands at 75% 0ff the GPA for blue labels.   Say the word and we will close the deal.

[shadroch]

On 1/13/2022 at 12:23 PM, AhsokaTano Jedi Apprentice said:

I love this conversation ..very insightful.....The Dreaded Purple Label...I got 3 back 5 years ago and they were all  C-1  I wonder financially how much they drop in price, I've heard many different theories .50 percent...75 percent almost a 100 percent   Like others were saying when you see a book with a purple label you just move on no matter what the price, I am glad to see though that there is more interests in these books if the price is right.....can anybody weigh in on that ? Also about using CBCS vs CGC I do believe you stand a chance more often than not on getting a slightly higher grade but I believe and I've seen when 2 exact same comics are auctioned side by side with the same grade the CGC slabbed book will go for more than the CBCS graded book and sometimes the amount is substantial. That seems to be something I've seen several times and I wonder what other people think of that. Lastly I'm very old school and I just won't bid on books graded by CBCS because I think when and If you ever go to sell them you'll get more money from a book slabbed by CGC.....but what do I know I'm just a newbie.

In this post you are saying the books are worth 50-75-almost 100% less, but then you say you think they should sell for 75% of blue. 

Which is it?

[Prince Namor]

Most people aren't going to spend $150-$200 on a purple label 2.5, when they could buy a blue label 2.5 for $300-$400.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Grottu]

Lol…this thread has gone to unexpected places 🤔

Edited January 26, 2022 by Grottu

[William-James88]

On 1/3/2022 at 11:35 AM, Sauce Dog said:

The primary importance of grading is as you said being the integrity of the grade for resale, in which case it should be made absolutely clear what the book is. 

That makes me wonder what CGC would do with your World's Finest 3 with that wonderful custom cover which MUST be included within the slab.

[William-James88]

On 1/19/2022 at 4:21 PM, AhsokaTano Jedi Apprentice said:

ii

I was thinking, with these being lower grades, and just slight colour touch, you could always pay for restoration removal. If it's slight, then you might even end up with the exact same grades in blue label. Hopefully the colour touch is only in one spot and not on tiny spots across the cover. You just have to check if that would be worth it, cost wise.

[Sauce Dog]

On 1/27/2022 at 5:12 PM, William-James88 said:

That makes me wonder what CGC would do with your World's Finest 3 with that wonderful custom cover which MUST be included within the slab.

It would be a NG, and only if the cover was attached. I would be curious to what the label notations would be for something like that - maybe one day I'll submit one of the custom cover books for encapsulation just to see what happens as an experiment.