THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023) 9 9

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/16/2023 at 4:47 AM, Larryw7 said:

Judging by the box office , I really don't think James Cameron needs to take advice from anyone.

Of course, the obvious little flaw in that logic is that box office means everything when it comes to the quality of a movie. Even though The Force Awakens and Last Jedi are the highest grossing Star Wars movies, it doesn't mean they're the best. And even though The Mandalorian is just a TV series, it's arguably better than 75% of the Star Wars theatrical releases which have all made tons of money. Box office means very little when judging the quality of a movie's story. 

James Cameron's Lightstorm is a pioneer of VFX, but he isn't exactly the greatest storyteller ever. And he isn't above taking things from other movies, as I see it. I'm sure Mr Cameron knew jack about early 20th century America when he made Titanic. After a first viewing of that movie, I think he watched Martin Scorsese's Age of Innocence and lifted story ideas and camera movements and inserted them into his movie, only with Cameron's dumb dialogue, they came off like Saturday morning cartoon heroes and villains. School girls loved that and saw it umpteen times at the movies. Same with Avatar aka Dances With N'Avi. Some pretty melodramatic storytelling, but international audiences loved it. Cameron knows VFX, knows his audiences, and knows how to press buttons. It's helped put him at the top of the box office again, but it doesn't make him the greatest storyteller ever and it doesn't make him above taking things and ideas from movies that tell a better human story.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/16/2023 at 8:01 AM, Straw-Man said:

he'll have three 2B films in the next week or so.   he's doing ok.

Because money is everything. That's why The Force Awakens is the greatest Star Wars film ever made not accounting for inflation or other market factors like home video or streaming.

[media_junkie]

On 1/16/2023 at 12:47 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Box office means very little when judging the quality of a movie's story. 

Exactly.  Me and others have been saying the exact same thing about Captain Marvel.  It was a billion dollar turd.

[drotto]

On 1/16/2023 at 12:49 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Because money is everything. That's why The Force Awakens is the greatest Star Wars film ever made not accounting for inflation or other market factors like home video or streaming.

Nobody said money is everything, and the first Avatar (again not from a excellent movie standpoint) is far more successful with adjusted box office,  and shear tickets sold.

 

So, no box office is not everything, but it has to account for something.  That is why we are having the current disconnect with the general public and the Oscar's, and why they are becoming irrelevant.   How can you say a movie is best picture when it has almost no box office. Yes, it may have artistic merit,  but to what extent does it also need to have some level as mass appeal.  At this point the Oscar's is film makers making films for themselves, their friends, and their direct peers, with no mass appeal, and then patting themselves on the back for a great achievement. It can not just be a self selected, self appointed group of people calling themselves experts, and then bemoaning the public just does not get it, or they lack the knowledge or refinement to appreciate these films. The public embracing a film is a merit unto itself, and yes shows the creators are good film makers because they know what people want. The best picture winners for the last few years, have actually lost money.

 

We need to go back a few years or decades, when there seems to be much more of conjunction of great film making and the film being at least modestly popular. That is why so many films that have won become quickly irrelevant,  while movies like Star Wars (OT), Indian Jones, and countless others become favorites that are infinitely rewatched, and passed down generations. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by drotto

[Larryw7]

On 1/16/2023 at 12:47 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Of course, the obvious little flaw in that logic is that box office means everything when it comes to the quality of a movie. Even though The Force Awakens and Last Jedi are the highest grossing Star Wars movies, it doesn't mean they're the best. And even though The Mandalorian is just a TV series, it's arguably better than 75% of the Star Wars theatrical releases which have all made tons of money. Box office means very little when judging the quality of a movie's story. 

James Cameron's Lightstorm is a pioneer of VFX, but he isn't exactly the greatest storyteller ever. And he isn't above taking things from other movies, as I see it. I'm sure Mr Cameron knew jack about early 20th century America when he made Titanic. After a first viewing of that movie, I think he watched Martin Scorsese's Age of Innocence and lifted story ideas and camera movements and inserted them into his movie, only with Cameron's dumb dialogue, they came off like Saturday morning cartoon heroes and villains. School girls loved that and saw it umpteen times at the movies. Same with Avatar aka Dances With N'Avi. Some pretty melodramatic storytelling, but international audiences loved it. Cameron knows VFX, knows his audiences, and knows how to press buttons. It's helped put him at the top of the box office again, but it doesn't make him the greatest storyteller ever and it doesn't make him above taking things and ideas from movies that tell a better human story.

[Straw-Man]

On 1/16/2023 at 11:49 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

Because money is everything. That's why The Force Awakens is the greatest Star Wars film ever made not accounting for inflation or other market factors like home video or streaming.

my post dealt with cameron, only, so let's keep this focused on cameron; this isn't michael bay we're discussing.   starting with t1 [i'm giving him a pass on piranha2], and thru avatar2, here are his feature films' rt scores [i'm not counting documentaries]:  100%, 98%, 88%, 93%, 70%, 88%, 82% and 77%.   this isn't a "money is everything" record, tho' his movies certainly do make a good deal of money, in most cases.  i'm not here to say he authors the most erudite scripts, but i love so many of his shows.  i'll never tire of repeat-viewing t1, t2, the abyss, aliens and true lies.  i got tired of titanic, and am not a huge sci-fi fan so the avatars, tho' i've seen them, don't fall into my wheelhouse.  but, clearly, the man knows how to meld quality cinema with crowd-pleasing.  i'm very much enjoying watching avatar2 climb the chart and shush some mouths.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Straw-Man

[Bosco685]

On 1/16/2023 at 4:52 PM, media_junkie said:

Exactly.  Me and others have been saying the exact same thing about Captain Marvel.  It was a billion dollar turd.

Not to get in the middle of this, as enough people are negotiating with the MCU zivic.

But hasn't the steady counterpoint to anyone disputing Captain Marvel's success is because it made over one billion dollars?

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/16/2023 at 4:52 PM, media_junkie said:

Exactly.  Me and others have been saying the exact same thing about Captain Marvel.  It was a billion dollar turd.

So can I rest my case about Avatar Number Two, then?

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/16/2023 at 5:25 PM, Bosco685 said:

Not to get in the middle of this, as enough people are negotiating with the MCU zivic.

But hasn't the steady counterpoint to anyone disputing Captain Marvel's success is because it made over one billion dollars?

The other counterpoint is that most people without an anti-Captain Marvel agenda generally liked the movie. A lot of MCU fans even loved the movie. With a 79% RT critics score, it's middle of the MCU pack in that regard. Couple that with its billion dollar take and Captain Marvel can be considered another feather in Marvel Studios' success cap. The movie certainly wasn't a failure. And neither is Titanic, Avatar, or Avatar WOW.

[Bosco685]

On 1/16/2023 at 8:54 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

The other counterpoint is that most people without an anti-Captain Marvel agenda generally liked the movie. A lot of MCU fans even loved the movie. With a 79% RT critics score, it's middle of the MCU pack in that regard. Couple that with its billion dollar take and Captain Marvel can be considered another feather in Marvel Studios' success cap. The movie certainly wasn't a failure. And neither is Titanic, Avatar, or Avatar WOW.

Box office isn't everything. Nor are critic opinions.

[mtracy64]

I have little regard for critic's opinions. There are far too many critics these days, many allow their political views to slant their reviews and some seem to exist solely to support their political views. I don't have time or enough of an interest to seek out reviewers I think I can trust. Critics and moviegoers alike are prone to interpreting "not to my taste" as "bad movie". On the plus side, I have seen a few people in this forum whose tastes align reasonably well with my own, so their opinions may push me towards or away from something I'm on the fence about.

Is "anti-Captain Marvel" bias truly a thing, or is that doublespeak for "anti-Brie Larson"? I was totally unaware of any controversy regarding her leading up Captain Marvel until I read it here. I went and checked out some of the things that were talked about here for myself and decided that, given the context, people were overreacting. I do believe that Captain Marvel did $1B+ because Marvel propped it up by its placement and by overstating the film's importance to the Infinity Saga, but I also think it's a good movie. I have it solidly middle of the MCU pack (now that most of Phase IV fills out the bottom end). I've seen it probably four times now. I sometimes watch Infinity War, Guardians or Winter Soldier singly, but aside from that I generally run through Phases I - III over the course of, well, however long it takes. 

Box office generally means diddley-squat to me because older films have no representation due to increases in ticket prices and population. A statistic showing number of tickets sold versus number of people on the planet when the film was released would be far more interesting to me.

Interesting comment above regarding "turd" and "Avatar Number Two" . . .

[Bosco685]

On 1/16/2023 at 10:22 PM, mtracy64 said:

I have little regard for critic's opinions. There are far too many critics these days, many allow their political views to slant their reviews and some seem to exist solely to support their political views. I don't have time or enough of an interest to seek out reviewers I think I can trust. Critics and moviegoers alike are prone to interpreting "not to my taste" as "bad movie". On the plus side, I have seen a few people in this forum whose tastes align reasonably well with my own, so their opinions may push me towards or away from something I'm on the fence about.

Is "anti-Captain Marvel" bias truly a thing, or is that doublespeak for "anti-Brie Larson"? I was totally unaware of any controversy regarding her leading up Captain Marvel until I read it here. I went and checked out some of the things that were talked about here for myself and decided that, given the context, people were overreacting. I do believe that Captain Marvel did $1B+ because Marvel propped it up by its placement and by overstating the film's importance to the Infinity Saga, but I also think it's a good movie. I have it solidly middle of the MCU pack (now that most of Phase IV fills out the bottom end). I've seen it probably four times now. I sometimes watch Infinity War, Guardians or Winter Soldier singly, but aside from that I generally run through Phases I - III over the course of, well, however long it takes. 

Box office generally means diddley-squat to me because older films have no representation due to increases in ticket prices and population. A statistic showing number of tickets sold versus number of people on the planet when the film was released would be far more interesting to me.

Interesting comment above regarding "turd" and "Avatar Number Two" . . .

Although we differ on the Captain Marvel opinions, at least this is a sensible rationale.

When someone uses box office results and critic reviews differently just to twist a narrative, it is clear they are being more disingenuous then they declare in others.

It is obvious when box office not mattering when the targeted film is closing in on two billion dollars to their beloved film's one.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/16/2023 at 8:59 PM, Bosco685 said:

Box office isn't everything. Nor are critic opinions.

Quote

A lot of MCU fans even loved the movie.

References "MCU fans", cites Critic Score.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/17/2023 at 7:48 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

References "MCU fans", cites Critic Score.

You mean this useless RT audience score that’s been fire bombed by a legion of anti-Captain Marvel trolls over and over again? Of course you’re free to throw it up as evidence as many times as you want but it’s a useless score and most people who keep track of this type of stuff know it.

To get a true feel for an actual general audience score (minus the haters and the champions), I’d say disregard the 1 stars and the 4 stars and look at the rest, which will probably bring it closer to the RT critics score in the mid to high 70’s. 

[Bosco685]

On 1/17/2023 at 10:26 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

You mean this useless RT audience score that’s been fire bombed by a legion of anti-Captain Marvel trolls over and over again? Of course you’re free to throw it up as evidence as many times as you want but it’s a useless score and most people who keep track of this type of stuff know it.

To get a true feel for an actual general audience score (minus the haters and the champions), I’d say disregard the 1 stars and the 4 stars and look at the rest, which will probably bring it closer to the RT critics score in the mid to high 70’s. 

Wait.

So you are saying on a five-point Audience Review we drop the 1s and 4s as outliers, and count everything else?

Example: Puss In Boots The Last Wish feedback.

1) Why not 1s and 5s to extract any boosting or detracting manipulation?

2) So you pulled all the Captain Marvel (2019) Audience Score feedback and validated this manipulated approach eliminating 1s and 4s leads to mid-70s?

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/17/2023 at 10:58 AM, Bosco685 said:

Wait.

So you are saying on a five-point Audience Review we drop the 1s and 4s as outliers, and count everything else?

Example: Puss In Boots The Last Wish feedback.

1) Why not 1s and 5s to extract any boosting or detracting manipulation?

2) So you pulled all the Captain Marvel (2019) Audience Score feedback and validated this manipulated approach eliminating 1s and 4s leads to mid-70s?

It's like a 6.7 on IMDB if you exclude the extremes, which is like 0.2 higher than if they're included. Not sure how to do that with RT.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Captain Marvel's average rating by critics on RT is 6.8/10 (lower than the percentage of "like"/"dislike" ratio), and by audiences it's 5.4/10 (which is higher than its ratio). So... Trying to make this out to be some sort of darling simply isn't possible by using any meaningful sample size.

Not sure why anyone needs a reminder if its mediocrity, but .

[drotto]

On 1/17/2023 at 10:58 AM, Bosco685 said:

Wait.

So you are saying on a five-point Audience Review we drop the 1s and 4s as outliers, and count everything else?

Example: Puss In Boots The Last Wish feedback.

1) Why not 1s and 5s to extract any boosting or detracting manipulation?

2) So you pulled all the Captain Marvel (2019) Audience Score feedback and validated this manipulated approach eliminating 1s and 4s leads to mid-70s?

I have not seen it yet, so I am not judging, but take Last of Us as an example.  How do 2000 five star reviews appear hours before the show has aired? There should be now fan reviews if the show has not aired, and they are all magically five stars?  Do not tell me there is not positive review inflation along with bombing.  To be honest, I think in many cases they end up canceling each other out at this point.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/17/2023 at 10:58 AM, Bosco685 said:

Wait.

So you are saying on a five-point Audience Review we drop the 1s and 4s as outliers, and count everything else?

Example: Puss In Boots The Last Wish feedback.

1) Why not 1s and 5s to extract any boosting or detracting manipulation?

2) So you pulled all the Captain Marvel (2019) Audience Score feedback and validated this manipulated approach eliminating 1s and 4s leads to mid-70s?

I meant drop the 5 star votes. But whatever, when it comes to a movie like Captain Marvel that puzzlingly stirs the wrong people up, you can't go by a RT audience score regarding the quality because of the troll bombing by those same wrong people that's unfortunately so prevalent today. 

[drotto]

On 1/17/2023 at 5:17 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

I meant drop the 5 star votes. But whatever, when it comes to a movie like Captain Marvel that puzzlingly stirs the wrong people up, you can't go by a RT audience score regarding the quality because of the troll bombing by those same wrong people that's unfortunately so prevalent today. 

When is RT ever accurate?  It is subject to review bombing, and it is subject to review inflation.  The score is either reliable or not.  You always pick and choice when to use it.  With Captain Marvel you dismiss it because the score may have been negatively skewed, but when convenient you highlight RT as proof that the audience loves something. Just as with many people, you use the score when it support your argument, but will quickly dismiss it as junk, when you disagree with what it is showing.