Maus banned 1 1

[vodou]

On 1/31/2022 at 1:52 PM, jaybuck43 said:

I'm not sure what age that picture (and/or similar, there are so many, way too many) is right for, and thus was ages younger are not, but it should be before HS graduation/age 18, if not before. Why 18? Because that's the age we legally allow our children to enter the military. It's one thing to fight against such, and know exactly what you're fighting against, it's another -and much more important thing, to know what orders must never be followed. Ever. There are always more of us than them, and yet...these things keep happening. Stalin/Russia, Mao/China, Pol Pot/Cambodia, and probably many others that don't get the same press or haven't been discovered yet (or have been quietly forgotten). It's creepy; it begins with: Us vs. Them.

The picture above trumps Maus. Of course. I don't get worked up about the fate of Maus in one school or whatever. I don't. Others do. Okay to that; but if these pictures, which naturally provoke discussion, very serious discussion, disappear...then we all have a big problem.

[Hockeyflow33]

On 1/31/2022 at 1:52 PM, jaybuck43 said:

I am a bit curious, and this isn't meant to accuse you of antisemitism, but did you know any jews growing up?  You absolutely need to expose middle school aged children to the horrors of one of the worst atrocities ever committed, not just to make the point that it was bad (cause it was), but to start asking the more important questions like "How did we let that happen?" "How did people just go along with it?" and "What's preventing something like that from happening again?"

You think 12/13 is too young to be exposed to Maus?  which itself IS the  "watered down" version.  Let me tell you the bed time stories I was told at a significantly younger age.

My family was born in Lodz, Poland.  My grandfather was the youngest of 10.  His father, Chaim, owned a moderate sized factory in town.  He did well for himself, not a millionaire like Mr. Spiegelman,  but well enough to care for his kids, have a governess to help raise the kids etc.  When my grandfather was only 18 he was drafted with his brothers into the Polish Military to fight the Germans.  That uh didn't go well.  The Germans took control of West Poland (with East Poland seized by Russia).  My Great Grandfather's factory was stolen (sold to a Polish Gentile without any renumeration), my family thrown out of their home at gun point and forced into the Ghettos.  After a few years of starving, living on rations, and having to barely get by in a tiny one bedroom apartment for multiple people, the Germans and their Polish puppet government decided that my family had it WAY too good.  My great grandparents were pulled out of their new home and shot in the street for the crime of being "too old". My grandfather and his younger brother went and joined the Polish Resistance.  His older brothers weren't as lucky and were ratted out by neighbors and had them sent off to various "work camps".  You probably heard of one of them, Bergen-Belsen, this is where Anne Frank (along with my Uncle) died.  Two of my uncles were sent to a place you probably never heard of.  Majdanek, which was on the border of German Poland and Russian Poland.  There my uncles were forced to work until they died.  Below is a picture the Russian's took when they liberated the place.  Somewhere in that field of skulls and body parts, of 50,000 dead, are my uncles, cousins, and other relatives.  My grandfather himself was captured twice while he fought the Germans and escaped from Bergen-Belsen and then from Auschwitz-Birkenau.  In all, my great grandparents, four uncles and one aunt were murdered in the Shoah.  

So no, I'm don't care its a bit uncomfortable that kids have to be exposed to horrors of mankind, some of us didn't have choice.  My Grandfather didn't.  I'm not interested in "romanticizing" the Holocaust and making it more "tasteful".  Not gonna "Gone with the Wind" this.

 

You're purposefully obfuscating my point and also accusing me of antisemitism, thanks! 

Again, I'm not advocating for or against a book just pointing out the pitchforks can probably go away if you read the actual quote from the people who made the decision.

[DocGo]

On 1/31/2022 at 12:18 AM, namisgr said:

I haven't seen anything like that from media, and so would be interested in your links to support that idea.

What I have read is Spiegelman himself contextualizing the county ban of his work, with no regional consideration:

Spiegelman said he thinks the board's decision is "absurd," and part of a larger picture of often polarizing debates over things like critical race theory, oppression and slavery.

 

I’m not going to post links as it will inevitably get this thread locked for politics. All you need to do is Google “Maus” and “ban”. The word “ban” makes everyone lose their minds apparently which I think was the intent. That word should not have been used in this context.

[jaybuck43]

On 1/31/2022 at 4:00 PM, docgo said:

I’m not going to post links as it will inevitably get this thread locked for politics. All you need to do is Google “Maus” and “ban”. The word “ban” makes everyone lose their minds apparently which I think was the intent. That word should not have been used in this context.

The book is banned. Teachers cannot use it, when they previously could, in their curriculum. Why shouldn’t the term be used in this context?  The text was removed from the curriculum, not because the curriculum changed (I.e. that they’re not teaching the topic any more) or because a better option was selected (say changing from Maus to Night) but because they don’t like the content. And yes, the board sounds inherently stupid when they start saying that they’re removing it because it’s not “appropriate”. Here’s another quote from one of the knuckle draggers on the board “It shows people hanging. It shows them killing kids. Why does the educational system promote this kind of stuff?” Like really? Are you kidding me? You’re asking why a book about what happened in THE HOLOCAUST depicts the horrors of what happened there???? Did he think Life is beautiful is what actually happened???? My great grandparents were shot and killed for being too old and their bodies left in the freaking streets, and this mouth breather is like woah woah, maybe a picture of some mice shadows hanging in the background is too much for teenagers. Also, they removed the book, with no replacement named. So the goal isn’t even about selecting a better piece of content to teach, it’s just removing one specific item (you know, banning it).

[vodou]

On 1/31/2022 at 4:12 PM, jaybuck43 said:

knuckle draggers

 

On 1/31/2022 at 4:12 PM, jaybuck43 said:

mouth breather

Careful, Maus is about the dangerous results of Othering, the best argument against it would not include doing so to reinforce the point.

The risk of Othering is all around us, everywhere, all the time, "in" us even...if we're not mindful of showing others the same respect we show ourselves and wish to be shown...by others.

It starts with stuff likes quotes above, and more easily perpetuates/permeates if not called out.

[Rick2you2]

On 1/31/2022 at 1:30 PM, vodou said:

 

No taxation without representation is where the whole thing started...bro  

 

You are represented. And representatives delegate to people who know better.  You wouldn’t expect, or want, a parent to tell the school how to design an HVAC system. Why do you think the average person can design a school curriculum? General directions are one thing, not this.

[jaybuck43]

On 1/31/2022 at 4:52 PM, vodou said:

 

Careful, Maus is about the dangerous results of Othering, the best argument against it would not include doing so to reinforce the point.

The risk of Othering is all around us, everywhere, all the time, "in" us even...if we're not mindful of showing others the same respect we show ourselves and wish to be shown...by others.

It starts with stuff likes quotes above, and more easily perpetuates/permeates if not called out.

I’m curious about your understanding of Othering. Pointing out a specific individual’s foolish, and low intelligent, specific behavior, is not othering. Saying “people from the south are unintelligent” is othering. The concept deals with generalizations versus specifics. I can say Hitler is awful. I can say nazis are awful. I shouldn’t say “Germans are awful” because well you’re generalizing a broad group with generalities and not specifics. 
 

But, to your point, when someone does something stupid you’re gonna get called out on it. 
 

 

[vodou]

On 1/31/2022 at 6:11 PM, Rick2you2 said:

You are represented.

Fact. That's the very definition of a School Board.

On 1/31/2022 at 6:11 PM, Rick2you2 said:

And representatives delegate to people who know better.

Sometimes; not always, and "know" is a problematic word choice.

Nonetheless, final decisions always rest with the School Board -they're also the people held accountable (by voters) when things go wrong.

I've been elected to and sat on several public boards...have you? If not, it's understandable that this may be unfamiliar territory for you.

[vodou]

On 1/31/2022 at 6:27 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Pointing out a specific individual’s foolish, and low intelligent, specific behavior, is not othering.

That's fair. Name names and specific statements then, please. That's how we avoid anything smacking of "broad strokes", it's just bad form if nothing else.

On 1/31/2022 at 6:27 PM, jaybuck43 said:

I can say Hitler is awful.

Generalization.

On 1/31/2022 at 6:27 PM, jaybuck43 said:

I can say nazis are awful.

Generalization.

On 1/31/2022 at 6:27 PM, jaybuck43 said:

I shouldn’t say “Germans are awful” because well you’re generalizing a broad group with generalities and not specifics. 

True, but goes for the previous two examples also. I agree with you, best to stick to specific individuals married to their specific moments of actions/statements that fit the bill of "...".

[jimjum12]

On 1/31/2022 at 6:35 PM, vodou said:

True, but goes for the previous two examples also. I agree with you, best to stick to specific individuals married to their specific moments of actions/statements that fit the bill of "...".

... in a perfect world ... somewhere over the rainbow...   GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[jaybuck43]

On 1/31/2022 at 6:35 PM, vodou said:

That's fair. Name names and specific statements then, please. That's how we avoid anything smacking of "broad strokes", it's just bad form if nothing else.

I literally did. I’ll pull it out below so it stands out more…
 
Here’s another quote from one of the knuckle draggers on the board “It shows people hanging. It shows them killing kids. Why does the educational system promote this kind of stuff?”

if you want me to post the specific name of the man who said it, fine (thought I don’t think it necessary) Tony Allman. 
 

I do ask, have you read the minutes of the board? Because they’re out there. The teachers are having to defend this content against Allman because he finds it objectionable. He is annoyed that spiegelman did art in playboy (does he know that so did shel Silverstein?) the board wants to edit out all the things they don’t like and specifically state “ We hope we have good employees, like minded culture, centric folks that fit with McMinn County, that they’re going to make the right discretionary decisions to redact that literature in an appropriate way for the age related presentation“ 

[vodou]

On 1/31/2022 at 8:09 PM, jaybuck43 said:

I do ask, have you read the minutes of the board?

I don't need to. I don't live in McMinn County. So I'm not a taxpayer there nor represented by any McMinn County Board.

Anything in those minutes of issue is a local issue, for the locals to work out. The Board voted 10-0, so it's not just Tony Allman, is it?

A large unanimous vote appears to me to be a Board that feels like they are strongly supported by their constituents. If not...they'll find out next election. It's that easy, that's how it works.

This was already posted on page 2, assuming the statement is true, it seems reasonable to me -as an outsider looking in vested only with curiosity.

In a statement posted on its website Thursday, after numerous media articles detailed the controversy, the McMinn County Board of Education said the board voted to remove "the graphic novel Maus from McMinn County Schools because of its unnecessary use of profanity and nudity and its depiction of violence and suicide. Taken as a whole the board felt this work was simply too adult-oriented for use in our schools."

The school board added in their statement that they "do not diminish the value of Maus as an impactful and meaningful piece of literature, nor do we dispute the importance of teaching our children the historical and moral lessons and realities of the Holocaust."

"To the contrary we have asked our administrators to find other works that accomplish the same educational goals in a more age appropriate fashion," the board said. "The atrocities of the Holocaust were shameful beyond description, and we all have an obligation to ensure that younger generations learn of its horrors to ensure such an event is never repeated."

I'm personally not invested in doing more of the same that we've been doing but with more granularity though @jaybuck43, not for a local issue, one that's not "my" local issue.

Again, I've done that before a lot from both sides of the table -when it was "my" local issue...it can wear one out.

This is a good conversation broadly though and relevant to this place, in general (more of a comics than art discussion though?), so instead I have some other questions for everyone that do move outside McMinn County, possibly to your backyard or mine.

1. How many 8th grade public school reading lists nationwide have Maus on them?
2. How many don't? (Why not? No Holocaust era curriculum at all, or instead non-Maus text?)
3. Was Maus on a reading list but later specifically removed? How many times did this happen before? (Again -why, why not, etc.)

I don't know the answers to any of the above, so I won't speculate past those answers either. But, I'd think for those that feel very strongly negative about McMinn County's action here but aren't directly impacted by it would see the even bigger target as: getting Maus into any/all other 8th grade class reading lists nationwide that don't already use it. Or maybe just your local schools? Lose McMinn but win yours and maybe the rest...why not?

[Randall Dowling]

FWIW, for those that are feeling like this is an overreaction to what the McMinn School Board did and that nobody is trying to cover up or minimize the holocaust, I can tell you that I have multiple family members that are pushing exactly that.  More and more, they say explicitly the following things:

• People's reaction to Nazis is hysterical and overwrought.  Hitler did a lot of good things and the bad things are questionable.
• The holocaust is probably not as bad as Jews have been pushing and if you're going to teach that you should teach the other side (whatever that is).
• Slavery wasn't really a bad thing and was actually a beneficial thing that Europeans did for Africans.  Almost none of them were actually whipped and they were given food and shelter in exchange for work.  A perfectly reasonable arrangement.

These things are happening in the US.  And they are increasingly becoming mainstream in certain groups.  Both my parents have PhDs and they believe these crazy ideas fervently.  And the reason why is simple- there are those that are actively trying to reengineer norms and morals to a place where cruelty is not a bad thing if you believe you're looking out for the greater good (again, whatever that is).

So, I don't believe pushing back against it is an overreaction.  I think it's the only sensible thing to do.   

Edited February 1, 2022 by Randall Dowling
Clarification

[Peter G]

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/whoopi-goldberg-apologizes-saying-holocaust-014358037.html

 

Whoppi is the wurst

 

And she's a racist bigot to boot !

[Hockeyflow33]

On 2/1/2022 at 3:22 AM, Randall Dowling said:

FWIW, for those that are feeling like this is an overreaction to what the McMinn School Board did and that nobody is trying to cover up or minimize the holocaust, I can tell you that I have multiple family members that are pushing exactly that.  More and more, they say explicitly the following things:

• People's reaction to Nazis is hysterical and overwrought.  Hitler did a lot of good things and the bad things are questionable.
• The holocaust is probably not as bad as Jews have been pushing and if you're going to teach that you should teach the other side (whatever that is).
• Slavery wasn't really a bad thing and was actually a beneficial thing that Europeans did for Africans.  Almost none of them were actually whipped and they were given food and shelter in exchange for work.  A perfectly reasonable arrangement.

These things are happening in the US.  And they are increasingly becoming mainstream in certain groups.  Both my parents have PhDs and they believe these crazy ideas fervently.  And the reason why is simple- there are those that are actively trying to reengineer norms and morals to a place where cruelty is not a bad thing if you believe you're looking out for the greater good (again, whatever that is).

So, I don't believe pushing back against it is an overreaction.  I think it's the only sensible thing to do.   

Absolutely wild. To me, it's why teaching actual events instead of using allegorical materials like Maus is so much more important. 

There is a real lack of historical knowledge both nationally and internationally and there are all sorts of valid reasons why trying to teach children and kids heavy-fact based data can be tough. There's only so much time so you're forced to pick and choose topics which will leave out tons of very important ones. To circle back to comics, Brad Meltzer and Chris Eliopoulos put out a fantastic series of children's book titled "I Am" which are biography-based books about historical figures geared and drawn for kids. I certainly don't know how you tailor this material for something so dark and horrific as the Holocaust, so maybe events such as these are best taught straightforward. 

None have risen to the level of the Holocaust but there has unfortunately been plenty of genocides with the Armenians, the Irish (disguised as a potato famine), the great starvation of Soviet Ukraine, Rwanda and I'm sure many more that I'm not aware of, including the possibility of one occurring right now with the Uyghurs. As far as I'm aware the Holocaust is the only one taught in schools, and clearly not very well. Education should continue after school ends and so much of today is centered on other distractions instead of making learning a lifelong pursuit. 

 

[Joshua33]

On 1/31/2022 at 3:26 AM, Rick2you2 said:

Which raises the question of why we permit parents to make those decisions, even if it is their own children. If parents decided that Hitler was a good guy, should they permitted to promote the “benefits” of Naziism in schools? If a school district wants the subject of WW 2 in its history class, then it should have the right to teach it as it sees fit, within State guidelines (which presumably would prevent something like teaching Naziism as a good thing). 

We permit parents to contribute to those decisions, so that those decisions aren't controlled by modern nazis. 

[vodou]

On 2/1/2022 at 11:21 AM, Joshua33 said:

...so that those decisions aren't controlled by modern nazis. 

No kidding; if we've learned nothing else from at least 100m murdered by their own governments in the 20th century - haven't we at least learned that the concentration of power makes it all the more easy for things to go wrong, and like, um, really really fast too?

[Joshua33]

On 2/1/2022 at 8:26 AM, vodou said:

No kidding; if we've learned nothing else from at least 100m murdered by their own governments in the 20th century - haven't we at least learned that the concentration of power makes it all the more easy for things to go wrong, and like, um, really really fast too?

We don't learn. The same thing is being repeated all over the globe. Australia is a terrifying example of just how quickly an entire continent can go south. Disarm, take political control, enact questionable policy, enforce, concentrate all non assimilated. Sound familiar?

[vodou]

On 2/1/2022 at 11:36 AM, Joshua33 said:

Sound familiar?

Yes. Othering.

[Rick2you2]

On 2/1/2022 at 9:48 AM, Hockeyflow33 said:

Absolutely wild. To me, it's why teaching actual events instead of using allegorical materials like Maus is so much more important. 

There is a real lack of historical knowledge both nationally and internationally and there are all sorts of valid reasons why trying to teach children and kids heavy-fact based data can be tough. There's only so much time so you're forced to pick and choose topics which will leave out tons of very important ones. To circle back to comics, Brad Meltzer and Chris Eliopoulos put out a fantastic series of children's book titled "I Am" which are biography-based books about historical figures geared and drawn for kids. I certainly don't know how you tailor this material for something so dark and horrific as the Holocaust, so maybe events such as these are best taught straightforward. 

None have risen to the level of the Holocaust but there has unfortunately been plenty of genocides with the Armenians, the Irish (disguised as a potato famine), the great starvation of Soviet Ukraine, Rwanda and I'm sure many more that I'm not aware of, including the possibility of one occurring right now with the Uyghurs. As far as I'm aware the Holocaust is the only one taught in schools, and clearly not very well. Education should continue after school ends and so much of today is centered on other distractions instead of making learning a lifelong pursuit. 

 

I don’t agree regarding the use of “allegorical” material. Cartooning forces the reader/viewer to the focus of the subject. That’s why Thomas Nast and others made such a great splash. Boss Tweed, of Tammany Hall fame (the old NYC political machine) said that he hated the way Nast used to show him in prison garb because if the public got used to it they would put him there (and they did). Showing Nazi’s as cats and Jews as mice gets the message through. The more basic problem I have is with the way history is now taught. The focus on the way people lived instead of the way events and people shaped it undercuts the importance of the Holocaust. The Holocaust is, in essence, an event.

By the way, I don’t agree with prevailing views that the mass killings of Armenians, starvation of the Irish, etc. should be equated with the Holocaust. They were brutal and indefensible, until you realize that humans have always behaved that way. Go back into the Old Testament, for example, and look at what Joshua did in Canaan after the Israelites came in. In the name of G-d, they exterminated 4 cities. What makes the Holocaust slaughter special was that it wasn’t just to take over territory or riches, but to deliberately wipe out a people. We didn’t even do that when we anthrax infected blankets to the Indians (oops, native Americans).