Did I Get Scammed? Restoration & Lessons Learned 5 5

[Upgrayedd2]

Last year, I purchased a comic book on eBay. Paid a good amount for it (> $5,000). The seller had a robust history of selling a lot of expensive and very, very clean comics (VFNM - NM+). When I received the comic, I was ecstatic. Exactly as described. I provided positive feedback and submitted it to CGC.

When it returned from CGC with the Restoration label (the C poor-type of Restoration), I was surprised. I reached out to the seller and he was emphatic the restoration was disclosed in the description. I believed him, but here is what I've learned to date.

(1) He told me to reach out to eBay and get the listing description. I did. eBay informed me he deleted the listing before I received the comic book. If not, the listing would have remained on eBay for 2 years.

(2) Next, I started looking at his postings. On all of his highest value comics (some over $10,000 and rates of VFNM-NM) it does show Modified, but it is buried on the Modified Item line within the Item Specific box. No where else on the listings does it mention any comic is Restored.

(3) When I look at his Sold History listings, of which some are 6 months old, all of them indicate "No" under the Modified Item line. What I am implying here is that it's possible he deletes any comic he sells that says "yes" under the Modified Item line. If not, why delete my listing before I received the comic book?

I am not accusing this individual of fraud, because it is highly likely he did have something written in the Modified Item line. However, it's challenging to overlook the items above as an aggregate. As this time, I'm stuck with the comic book. However, eBay has provided a potential route to recover the original listing. Not sure if it will work, but I think it's worth pursuing. The only way I can think of at this time to determine if others are running into the same issue is to track all of his listings that say "yes" under the Modified Item. If he deletes the listing on these shortly after they're sold, then I'll know.

Any feedback, positive or negative, is greatly appreciated.

[KCOComics]

Does the seller sell only raw books? 

There are a few sellers known for this scam. Kellysuperheros being one and Beatlesbluecat being another. I'm sure there are others... 

Both sellers sell only raw books. Kellysuperheros tends to sell beautiful looking raw books and will bury the restoration in the notes, knowing perfectly well it will be overlooked, but he can prove it was in the description.

BlueCat will buy graded books in F to VF range, crack them out and sell them as NM for multiples of the purchase price. 

If a big ticket book, sold online, isn't graded in today's market, you have to really ask yourself why? 

[The-Collector]

On 1/31/2022 at 3:38 PM, Upgrayedd2 said:

Last year, I purchased a comic book on eBay. Paid a good amount for it (> $5,000). The seller had a robust history of selling a lot of expensive and very, very clean comics (VFNM - NM+). When I received the comic, I was ecstatic. Exactly as described. I provided positive feedback and submitted it to CGC.

When it returned from CGC with the Restoration label (the C poor-type of Restoration), I was surprised. I reached out to the seller and he was emphatic the restoration was disclosed in the description. I believed him, but here is what I've learned to date.

(1) He told me to reach out to eBay and get the listing description. I did. eBay informed me he deleted the listing before I received the comic book. If not, the listing would have remained on eBay for 2 years.

(2) Next, I started looking at his postings. On all of his highest value comics (some over $10,000 and rates of VFNM-NM) it does show Modified, but it is buried on the Modified Item line within the Item Specific box. No where else on the listings does it mention any comic is Restored.

(3) When I look at his Sold History listings, of which some are 6 months old, all of them indicate "No" under the Modified Item line. What I am implying here is that it's possible he deletes any comic he sells that says "yes" under the Modified Item line. If not, why delete my listing before I received the comic book?

I am not accusing this individual of fraud, because it is highly likely he did have something written in the Modified Item line. However, it's challenging to overlook the items above as an aggregate. As this time, I'm stuck with the comic book. However, eBay has provided a potential route to recover the original listing. Not sure if it will work, but I think it's worth pursuing. The only way I can think of at this time to determine if others are running into the same issue is to track all of his listings that say "yes" under the Modified Item. If he deletes the listing on these shortly after they're sold, then I'll know.

Any feedback, positive or negative, is greatly appreciated.

I'm sorry to hear this happened to you. This sounds like deception to me and as @KCOComics mentioned several sellers are known for this. Have you tried 130point.com or watchcount.com to see if the listing is still on there? 

[Upgrayedd2]

I've only been watching this seller since last year and have only seen them list RAW comic books.

What kills me is that this seller (or person they are acquiring the comics from)  is adding color, glue, trimming the covers of comics that are in high-grade. Who would restore a high-grade comic from the 1950-1960s eras? And, do a poor job?

I do need to add that I did buy other comics from this individual. One returned from CGC with a small grade less, but I'm happy with the grade. The other returned a full grade less. I realize grading is not an exact science, but the Restoration issue - that detail (if present at all) was buried in a checklist. Never seen that before since most will include Restoration in the title or prominently display it as a separate sentence in the Description.

As for 130point and watchcount, no luck. It did appear on watchcount but no details.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Upgrayedd2
no edit made

[Lightning55]

I have been on eBay for 24 years.  To my knowledge, as soon as an item is sold, you have ABSOLUTELY no control of that closed listing.  The eBay agent who stated the seller deleted the listing before you received the comic is flat out wrong.  Not possible.

You can do whatever you want to a listing that is OPEN, such as revise most aspects of it, or take it down from eBay (delete it), but there is no way to touch a listing once it has been sold.  You can't delete it, you can't edit it.  There is no mechanism to even touch it. 

If you used html that includes hosted photos, and you delete the photos from the host, the images will no longer show.  If you uploaded the images to eBay directly during the listing process, they are staying on their server, again no path to do anything to that sold listing.

Most closed listings are visible for 60 days.  Some longer if there are few closed listings in a particular search.

If you buy something on ebay, and it was a single item, you might have as much as 90 days to still be able to view it.  If you buy from a listing that sells multiple items, and the seller just leaves the listing there and replenishes quantity as sold, you may be able to see that listing indefinitely.

EBay itself will have the ability to see the listing as it appeared when it was sold for a much longer time, depending on how long they decide to leave it on the servers.  But the general public, a window of time to see it, and no access to alter it.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Lightning55

[WolverineX]

Out the seller. Maybe others have similar stories

[theCapraAegagrus]

I think that it's definitely possible.

[Mr. Zipper]

Of course you got scammed. Burying an important fact in the listing and then removing the listing is intentional deceit. 

[mr_highgrade]

On 1/31/2022 at 3:03 AM, Upgrayedd2 said:

I've only been watching this seller since last year and have only seen them list RAW comic books.

What kills me is that this seller (or person they are acquiring the comics from)  is adding color, glue, trimming the covers of comics that are in high-grade. Who would restore a high-grade comic from the 1950-1960s eras? And, do a poor job?

I do need to add that I did buy other comics from this individual. One returned from CGC with a small grade less, but I'm happy with the grade. The other returned a full grade less. I realize grading is not an exact science, but the Restoration issue - that detail (if present at all) was buried in a checklist. Never seen that before since most will include Restoration in the title or prominently display it as a separate sentence in the Description.

As for 130point and watchcount, no luck. It did appear on watchcount but no details.

Was the guy's name Ed Kelly? From Kellysuperheroes? If so, you totally got scammed. 

[comicginger1789]

On 1/31/2022 at 3:22 AM, Lightning55 said:

I have been on eBay for 24 years.  To my knowledge, as soon as an item is sold, you have ABSOLUTELY no control of that closed listing.  The eBay agent who stated the seller deleted the listing before you received the comic is flat out wrong.  Not possible.

You can do whatever you want to a listing that is OPEN, such as revise most aspects of it, or take it down from eBay (delete it), but there is no way to touch a listing once it has been sold.  You can't delete it, you can't edit it.  There is no mechanism to even touch it. 

If you used html that includes hosted photos, and you delete the photos from the host, the images will no longer show.  If you uploaded the images to eBay directly during the listing process, they are staying on their server, again no path to do anything to that sold listing.

Most closed listings are visible for 60 days.  Some longer if there are few closed listings in a particular search.

If you buy something on ebay, and it was a single item, you might have as much as 90 days to still be able to view it.  If you buy from a listing that sells multiple items, and the seller just leaves the listing there and replenishes quantity as sold, you may be able to see that listing indefinitely.

EBay itself will have the ability to see the listing as it appeared when it was sold for a much longer time, depending on how long they decide to leave it on the servers.  But the general public, a window of time to see it, and no access to alter it.

I agree with this 100%. If you bid on the item and it closed and you won, there is not way to delete it. So eBay has record of it. If they don't, they messed up.

If you made a deal outside of eBay and the seller closed the listed or deleted it to do so, well then yes, it would be gone. And doing this is very very risky. I would recommend that if doing something like this, you have the seller recreate the listing with an "or best offer" option. Then, as soon as it is live, you submit your offer and they accept it. This way there is a complete record of such a thing. That or you know, don't make side deals (if this even happened that is)

And yes, some of the aforementioned sellers are terrible for this and should be left alone. Sadly, of the hundreds of thousands in this hobby, there are still amateurs, young and old, who buy from these folks unknowingly. If someone hides restoration or puts it in an obscure place, I would avoid. Restoration should be highlighted in the description, easy and plain to see. Someone who doesn't do this is trying to hide it in hopes of the best possible sale. 

[MAR1979]

Sorry and sad to hear what happened to the OP.

Situations like this are what grading/slabbing of comics was in effect created to prevent. What I don't think was envisioned when grading was being proposed in the late 90's was the slabbed book costing many multiples of raw.  I seem to recall from back then the prevailing thought was a graded book would cost approx the raw price + the fees associated with the grading.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by MAR1979

[Lightning55]

On 1/31/2022 at 10:38 AM, comicginger1789 said:

I agree with this 100%. If you bid on the item and it closed and you won, there is not way to delete it. So eBay has record of it. If they don't, they messed up.

If you made a deal outside of eBay and the seller closed the listed or deleted it to do so, well then yes, it would be gone. And doing this is very very risky. I would recommend that if doing something like this, you have the seller recreate the listing with an "or best offer" option. Then, as soon as it is live, you submit your offer and they accept it. This way there is a complete record of such a thing. That or you know, don't make side deals (if this even happened that is)

And yes, some of the aforementioned sellers are terrible for this and should be left alone. Sadly, of the hundreds of thousands in this hobby, there are still amateurs, young and old, who buy from these folks unknowingly. If someone hides restoration or puts it in an obscure place, I would avoid. Restoration should be highlighted in the description, easy and plain to see. Someone who doesn't do this is trying to hide it in hopes of the best possible sale. 

"If you made a deal outside of eBay and the seller closed the listed or deleted it to do so, well then yes, it would be gone."

Yes, that would be completely true, and one of the 2 ways that the listing could be deleted.  This reason being that it never "sold" in ebay's eyes (nor did they get fees for the sale).  The other being an "inside job", where an accomplice ebay employee alters the database.

If sold "off ebay" (lower price agreed, listing taken down), it would be ironic to try to get ebay to help resolve the problem.

"Restoration should be highlighted in the description, easy and plain to see."

Absolutely the correct thing to do.  Anything less is deception.  A seller who operates this way not only doesn't get any of my money, he receives my contempt for trying to slide an inferior product past buyers without full and OBVIOUS disclosure.

 

 

[Upgrayedd2]

On 1/30/2022 at 10:22 PM, Lightning55 said:

I have been on eBay for 24 years.  To my knowledge, as soon as an item is sold, you have ABSOLUTELY no control of that closed listing.  The eBay agent who stated the seller deleted the listing before you received the comic is flat out wrong.  Not possible.

You can do whatever you want to a listing that is OPEN, such as revise most aspects of it, or take it down from eBay (delete it), but there is no way to touch a listing once it has been sold.  You can't delete it, you can't edit it.  There is no mechanism to even touch it. 

If you used html that includes hosted photos, and you delete the photos from the host, the images will no longer show.  If you uploaded the images to eBay directly during the listing process, they are staying on their server, again no path to do anything to that sold listing.

Most closed listings are visible for 60 days.  Some longer if there are few closed listings in a particular search.

If you buy something on ebay, and it was a single item, you might have as much as 90 days to still be able to view it.  If you buy from a listing that sells multiple items, and the seller just leaves the listing there and replenishes quantity as sold, you may be able to see that listing indefinitely.

EBay itself will have the ability to see the listing as it appeared when it was sold for a much longer time, depending on how long they decide to leave it on the servers.  But the general public, a window of time to see it, and no access to alter it.

Lightning,

I'd like to agree with you, but he eBay Rep was very clear and said they confirmed with others in their office. In addition, the provided the exact date the seller deleted the listing and how much the seller paid in fees. 

I acquired the comic through the Make Offer option. Not sure what, if anything that would change.

[Upgrayedd2]

On 1/31/2022 at 4:32 AM, mr_highgrade said:

Was the guy's name Ed Kelly? From Kellysuperheroes? If so, you totally got scammed. 

No this is not the name of the seller and no one has guessed correctly. I am still exchanging emails, via eBay with the seller and at this time do not want to "out" them as I work through this.

[Lightning55]

On 1/31/2022 at 11:41 AM, Upgrayedd2 said:

Lightning,

I'd like to agree with you, but he eBay Rep was very clear and said they confirmed with others in their office. In addition, the provided the exact date the seller deleted the listing and how much the seller paid in fees. 

I acquired the comic through the Make Offer option. Not sure what, if anything that would change.

In the history of ebay, it has always been a fundamental that a closed listing remains intact, not editable.  If you could change the listing after the fact, how could ebay police the system, offer money back guarantees to buyers who claim that the item was not as described?  There would be no accurate information to compare, so nothing concrete to base a decision on as to whether the buyer and seller performed as required. 

Ebay customer service reps frequently give incorrect information, or conflicting information.  You can call 3 times and get 3 different answers.  They are far from experts on ebay, and understandably so.  EBay is a very complex platform, a million rules and policies.  They are not highly paid and there is a lot of turnover.

When a listing closes, there is no longer a link to revise it, definitely no link to delete it, or box to check to remove it.  It just stays on your Sold history until it times out.  Even then it is visible to eBay, just not to the marketplace users.

[Gaard]

Did you ask him why he took the time to delete the listing?

[Ride the Tiger]

I just went thru one of my listings that recently sold. There is no option anywhere to delete anything. There is the option to re-list it. Maybe if you mark it as relisted then end the listing??????

[greggy]

@kav

[MetalPSI]

Sure

We need Sherlock Holmes and you  call Inspector Clouseau instead

Edited January 31, 2022 by The Meta

[Upgrayedd2]

OK, the seller found it on PicClick. And...the Restoration was clearly displayed. This is 100% on me. And I told the seller as well. 

I did point out that on his current listings the only place it shows any type of modification is in the Modification Item. I suggested he again prominently highlight the comic have Restoration.

I consider this matter closed and an expensive lesson learned. Thank you all for your feedback