What Has Happened to this Hobby? 5 5

[Phill the Governor]

I have two stories (among many others) that sum up the problems with the people running the auction houses in this industry. And for those that think these types of people can separate themselves as a business owner and a collector, you should think again. I do not feel comfortable disclosing these stories publicly, but if you've met me in person and know my history of working in the industry, you would understand why I am so cynical seeing prices where they are at. As a collector, the market is exciting but ultimately outrageous knowing the type of behavior that goes on and how there should be consequences. Perhaps far too idealist. Remember, it's not that prices have gone up, this hobby had enough people where it would happen organically anyways. It's where prices have gone up to because of manipulation.

To quote the late, great George Carlin:

You know that big, bull***t businessman smile? And if you're a customer - Whoah! - that's when you get the really big smile. Customer always gets that really big smile, as the businessman carefully positions himself directly behind the customer, and unzips his pants, and proceeds to service...the...account.

I have seen this with my own eyes just before new... "record sales" are made. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Phill the Governor
spelling

[kbmcvay]

As far as "the people running the industry" goes I wouldn't trust almost any of them with my pet goldfish. Anthony and Albert have always been good, non-used car salesman like experiences for me. There are a few I just won't deal with based on either first hand accounts as well as reading the threads in here. The rest I've either never bought from/dealt with or its just a typical business transaction with nothing negative or positive to say (I'll put Will in this group as my wife bought something from him years ago and when she paid he shipped it promptly and the right page actually showed up in the mail - a Festivus Miracle).

[MAR1979]

On 4/9/2022 at 3:10 PM, kbmcvay said:

As far as "the people running the industry" goes I wouldn't trust almost any of them with my pet goldfish. Anthony  have always been good, non-used car salesman like experiences for me. There are a few I just won't deal with based on either first hand accounts as well as reading the threads in here. The rest I've either never bought from/dealt with or its just a typical business transaction with nothing negative or positive to say (I'll put Will in this group as my wife bought something from him years ago and when she paid he shipped it promptly and the right page actually showed up in the mail - a Festivus Miracle).

Used car salesmen, yes he does fit that bill. However I will say this; even with his likley upper 8 figures in holdings (depending on his current gambling streak) you can still haggle with him on a $299 item just like the old days. Most OCA's dealers just won't give that personal touch.

BTW haggling in some parts of the world is considered sport and I was not being sarcastic I do think it's great Anthony still does it. Much more fun dealing with him than other OCA dealers especially one in particular from Massachusetts.

As for Will, you simply will not find any dealer in any hobby that is more professional than him. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by MAR1979

[Randall Dowling]

On 4/8/2022 at 11:36 AM, vodou said:

Congratulations -you're rich! (measured in art or money)

Or maybe not, after all?

For about twenty years now I've considered "trading up" a terrible way to collect and haven't done it. Why? Because you are strip-mining your bench* to add a single star. I had done a bit of that very early on but found the practice leaving me feeling a bit empty. One new star in, bench cut in half. Bah! So then around that time, when my cumulative collection value was approximately what it would take, I tested myself with a thought experiment: would you trade it all for one top Frazetta oil? Answer: no. And that was that, I haven't looked back since. 

A much better idea, which I've practiced ever since, is to just pour as much new money as possible in -and be happy with what that level of spending buys. It's true that the first ten years of the new century, when prices were not moving up more than 10% or so a year, some years not particularly at all, some discipline and faith were required to stick to that plan but those were also the years when I was accumulating a ton of art, as my income was (still, then) climbing faster than prices! That's the essence of buy low and like any dollar cost averaging (DCA) plan, you will buy less and less quantity (for the same periodic outlay) as you climb the price ladder (which is a sign that your early faith was well-founded after all) but you'll also see the value of your existing accumulation (your bench!) to date rising along with. And...

Which means you can still buy "today" like yesterday and for around the same money, meaning just as many pieces coming in and approximately just as much thrills (a much anticipated package arriving several times a week if not every day) as before...if you're flexible on content. Are you collecting art or certain specific nostalgic characters/titles/companies/era? Your answer there is going to drive it all. To those that most/all of the above doesn't work for...I wish you the best and it's well past time to buckle down and get another degree or suite of professional designations along with a second job as you're going to need to double your income every year to keep up with the limited pool of art you're stuck on that's also doubling every year. No snark, just how it is.

*Imagine if the New England Patriots hadn't had a sudden QB health problem requiring promotion of Tom (from The Bench) and instead Drew stayed healthy and NE traded Tom away for a "star" replacement a few seasons later? Lots of (future) stars start off riding the bench, just like the mountains of 1980s Marvel panel pages I was buying for less than $50/page 25 years ago -glad I kept 'em!

All that I got from all this is that you don't love Frazetta enough.  

[kbmcvay]

My last encounter with Mr. Massachusetts was about 8 years ago at the art show in NJ. I told him I was looking for art by a specific artist. He said he had some and to go through the 10 or so Itoya books he had on his table and find it myself. He was standing there doing nothing as I was the only person at his table at the time. I just walked away because if he couldn't be bothered to help me I couldn't be bothered to give him my money. 

 

[Bronty]

Have you tried selling?   Some people are time wasters.    Putting up a hoop for them to jump through isn't a bad thing sometimes as a seller.

Say what you want about it but some of these guys with poor customer service have it work to their advantage.   If a buyer puts up with whatever hassle they are presented with, the time wasters have been filtered out and now know the seller also knows there is probably zero need to discount the piece, too.

Not everything has to be the way the buyer wants it to be, and I'm sure the dealer in question slept fine that night with or without you buying anything.

 

Another example.    I see buyers laugh at dealers raising prices every year on unsold material.

I think that's perfectly logical on their part.    They are looking for the right buyer.     Time doesn't stand still.    And what message do you want out there?    That the piece is dropping in value, or rising in value?  

Obviously, it can be taken too far, but again, things look different from the other side of the table.    

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Bronty

[MAR1979]

 

On 4/10/2022 at 12:13 PM, Bronty said:

Have you tried selling?   Some people are time wasters.    Putting up a hoop for them to jump through isn't a bad thing sometimes as a seller.

Say what you want about it but some of these guys with poor customer service have it work to their advantage.   If a buyer puts up with whatever hassle they are presented with, the time wasters have been filtered out and now know the seller also knows there is probably zero need to discount the piece, too.

Not everything has to be the way the buyer wants it to be, and I'm sure the dealer in question slept fine that night with or without you buying anything.

 

Another example.    I see buyers laugh at dealers raising prices every year on unsold material.

I think that's perfectly logical on their part.    They are looking for the right buyer.     Time doesn't stand still.    And what message do you want out there?    That the piece is dropping in value, or rising in value?  

Obviously, it can be taken too far, but again, things look different from the other side of the table.    

 

i have a definition for dealers who do what u describe. Probably against rules of this forum to write what it is...

Edited April 11, 2022 by MAR1979

[exitmusicblue]

Folks murmur of the cabal, but there is one far greater and more dangerous in the hobby, made up mostly of lunatics who stop at no limits...

The Thor Mankini Cabal.

 

[batman_fan]

On 4/10/2022 at 10:13 AM, Bronty said:

Have you tried selling?   Some people are time wasters.    Putting up a hoop for them to jump through isn't a bad thing sometimes as a seller.

Say what you want about it but some of these guys with poor customer service have it work to their advantage.   If a buyer puts up with whatever hassle they are presented with, the time wasters have been filtered out and now know the seller also knows there is probably zero need to discount the piece, too.

Not everything has to be the way the buyer wants it to be, and I'm sure the dealer in question slept fine that night with or without you buying anything.

 

Another example.    I see buyers laugh at dealers raising prices every year on unsold material.

I think that's perfectly logical on their part.    They are looking for the right buyer.     Time doesn't stand still.    And what message do you want out there?    That the piece is dropping in value, or rising in value?  

Obviously, it can be taken too far, but again, things look different from the other side of the table.    

 

There was a dealer in Mesa, AZ.  I will name names, Tom Kelb.  When I first started going to his store he would be sitting behind the counter on two stacked milk crates.  I would walk around looking at all the stuff he had behind the counter and eventually ask to look at something closer.  He would give you that look and actually say “how serious are you about buying that because I don't feel like getting up if you are just looking”.  We always referred to his store as “the grouchy old man shop”.  I actually have no idea what his store was actually called.  Good times, good times

[Rick2you2]

On 4/10/2022 at 12:13 PM, Bronty said:

Have you tried selling?   Some people are time wasters.    Putting up a hoop for them to jump through isn't a bad thing sometimes as a seller.

Say what you want about it but some of these guys with poor customer service have it work to their advantage.   If a buyer puts up with whatever hassle they are presented with, the time wasters have been filtered out and now know the seller also knows there is probably zero need to discount the piece, too.

Not everything has to be the way the buyer wants it to be, and I'm sure the dealer in question slept fine that night with or without you buying anything.

 

Another example.    I see buyers laugh at dealers raising prices every year on unsold material.

I think that's perfectly logical on their part.    They are looking for the right buyer.     Time doesn't stand still.    And what message do you want out there?    That the piece is dropping in value, or rising in value?  

Obviously, it can be taken too far, but again, things look different from the other side of the table.    

 

When I am expected to go through 20 Itoyas to find what I want, and if the dealer gives me no help at all, I will usually look at a few and walk away.  
If I do find something, my willingness to buy at list is a function of the market. But if I have to put up with searching much, I will generally look for at least a small reduction as the cost of my time.

[Bronty]

On 4/14/2022 at 9:50 AM, batman_fan said:

There was a dealer in Mesa, AZ.  I will name names, Tom Kelb.  When I first started going to his store he would be sitting behind the counter on two stacked milk crates.  I would walk around looking at all the stuff he had behind the counter and eventually ask to look at something closer.  He would give you that look and actually say “how serious are you about buying that because I don't feel like getting up if you are just looking”.  We always referred to his store as “the grouchy old man shop”.  I actually have no idea what his store was actually called.  Good times, good times

LOL

I get it, a bad attitude can be off putting.   

It isn't *always* the seller that has the bad attitude though!

The buyer that asks 43 questions about 37 items they were never going to buy in the first place unless 30% below FMV isn't a model citizen either.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Bronty

[batman_fan]

On 4/14/2022 at 8:16 AM, Bronty said:

LOL

I get it, a bad attitude can be off putting.   

It isn't *always* the seller that has the bad attitude though!

The buyer that asks 43 questions about 37 items they were never going to buy in the first place unless 30% below FMV isn't a model citizen either.

I actually continued shopping with him for over a decade, I just made sure I was serious about stuff I wanted to look at and always walked out buying something from him.  I remember a show in Phoenix.  Motor City Comics was set up.  Some customer had a stack of books and was negotiating prices with the owner (I believe).  The customer would show him a book and say what do you grade this and he would say “I don’t grade books, I price them”.  They kept going back and forth like that but I think the customer walked around empty handed.  I picked up a Batman 3 and 64 from him.  I guess I thought the price and grade were aligned.

[Hekla]

On 4/14/2022 at 6:50 AM, batman_fan said:

There was a dealer in Mesa, AZ.  I will name names, Tom Kelb.  When I first started going to his store he would be sitting behind the counter on two stacked milk crates.  I would walk around looking at all the stuff he had behind the counter and eventually ask to look at something closer.  He would give you that look and actually say “how serious are you about buying that because I don't feel like getting up if you are just looking”.  We always referred to his store as “the grouchy old man shop”.  I actually have no idea what his store was actually called.  Good times, good times

Cave Man Comics. His other saying was 'how serious are you, I don't run a museum'.

[batman_fan]

On 4/14/2022 at 9:35 AM, Hekla said:

Cave Man Comics. His other saying was 'how serious are you, I don't run a museum'.

LOL, that sounds like Tom !

[Rodey]

On 4/14/2022 at 11:35 AM, Hekla said:

Cave Man Comics. His other saying was 'how serious are you, I don't run a museum'.

I got that from one of the brothers who owned Empire Comics in Rochester, NY. It was 16th birthday, and my dad took me to the store to buy an X-Men #1 priced at $500 that was sitting in the glass counter. I asked to see. He gave me the "Museum" speech. My dad looked at the guy and pulled out a wad of cash. 

15 years later I sold that book for a down payment on my house.

 

[tth2]

On 4/15/2022 at 3:35 AM, Rodey said:

I got that from one of the brothers who owned Empire Comics in Rochester, NY. It was 16th birthday, and my dad took me to the store to buy an X-Men #1 priced at $500 that was sitting in the glass counter. I asked to see. He gave me the "Museum" speech. My dad looked at the guy and pulled out a wad of cash. 

15 years later I sold that book for a down payment on my house.

 

Nice dad!

If I had asked my dad for a $500 gift for my 16th birthday, let alone for a $500 comic book, the only thing I would’ve received is the back of his hand.

Edited April 15, 2022 by tth2

[Xatari]

On 4/8/2022 at 9:34 AM, Phill the Governor said:

There is an unfortunate reality of price manipulation working with actual collectors bidding, and new collectors/investors coming into the hobby.

Often, all it takes is one insanely rich buyer (insert someone like Ayman Harari or Eric Roberts for example) putting in an early bid at an auction house, and then that bid gets underbid by the house and a new "record price" for the item has been set. But then when you consider other collectors/investors have the same book in grade/ or comparable piece of art, and now they want that much for their book/art too. Then someone who can afford it buys it, and that inflated/shilled price becomes reality because now there is a real amount of people who view the new set of prices as legitimate.

This is how the cycle of prices keeps moving around to, virtually everything through time. And the auction houses can regulate it as much as they want/ can get away with.

Take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvLFEh7V18A&t=1s

Then follow up with this video that was in response to Wata & Heritage claiming the allegations made were unwarranted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKbuNwS-gaI

Not only is the above information obviously worrisome, it is at the very least morally unethical, and at worst completely illegal.

This is virtually the same type of scam being run in comics and comic art, by all the big auction houses (the big 3 at the very least) over the last several decades. The part of the scam that works so well is that there are tons of real collectors and investors. They simply don't have the means to dictate prices in the same way the auction houses do since they can underbid virtually every item they sell. Even if you're accounting for people shilling friends auctions (or their own) to set new GPA records, it pales in comparison to what the auction houses are doing. So the lie becomes real and everyone just keeps collecting what they afford and write off the insanely high prices as "new money" or "prices just increasing". Which may be true to an extent, but it doesn't negate the shill bidding and manipulation that is and continues to happen.

 

To see another perspective…

(specifically around 16 min in where Karl specifically states he has changed his perspective and was quite wrong)

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Xatari

[Phill the Governor]

On 4/16/2022 at 6:35 PM, Xatari said:

To see another perspective…

 

I don't think I'm alone in saying that the creator of this video has an obvious bias, and all his claims refuting the Karl Jobst video lack substance.

Some claims he makes:

• Since Jobst seeks to gain from monetizing his videos, somehow it completely de-values any impartial evidence shown in the video.. although it's not expressed how.
• Can't the people that run these companies be collectors too? Which would be great, but he does absolutely nothing to explain....
• The vast conflict of interest with Heritage and Wata and associated people. His argument and evidence is "He doesn't know what he's talking about. Wata is a great company".
• A video where he is interviewed by video game collectors, but only shows cut down clips (all out of context) to purposefully misconstrue the what he said and make it sound like he publicly denounced all the content of his video (which he did not do). Underestimating the collecting community in no way prevents owners of auction houses from manipulating their auctions. There is no correlation.

 

The audacity of this guy to say what Jobst did wasn't journalism is striking, especially since he provides no evidence at all to refute the claims. Saying "there is more of a collecting community than he thought", or  "look at these prices of games starting to go up a few years ago, the collector market is real, I know I was there!" is not evidence that prices were not being manipulated. The way he cut up the video of Jobst talking, though, really sealed the deal for me. That's the type of stuff the legacy media does when they want to try and control a narrative. It lacks ethics, calls into question the rest of his video, and leads me to believe he's in denial of the existence of a manipulated market because he's so invested in it. But , and this is my point, as a collector of various things myself, this leads to, aside from knowing this goes on, the reason I don't really care:

 

I am a collector of comic books and comic book art. And despite any manipulation of the market, I will always buy and collect what I like and can afford. I know there are others like me, and we make up a collecting "community" and prices increase over time as demand and supply go back and forth, understandably. But a large, complicated part of the reason the manipulation works with the system is because anyone who ever got taken for a ride, and overpaid by being underbid by the house, won- or will very likely win in the future by just holding the thing they bought. So should they be mad they got taken for a ride? Many people won't bid at any one of the big auction houses because they won too many things for JUST under their high bid. Many people can see through the lines. Savvy collectors will still buy anywhere there is something they like, and simply not pay more than they are comfortable doing. The only control we have is how much money we are willing to, and can bid with.

 

[Xatari]

Hi Phil, 

I don’t have a dog in the fight but you seem pretty passionate about it. Just showing a different perspective. I think our culture tends to look for conspiracy theories, and this one was definitely the flavor of the month a while back.

My suggestion is if you’re not interested in using Heritage, you definitely should not. I and many others will continue to use their platform for both buying and selling as it accomplishes a purpose for me in my own personal hobby passion.  

[Phill the Governor]

On 4/16/2022 at 10:29 PM, Xatari said:

Hi Phil, 

I don’t have a dog in the fight but you seem pretty passionate about it. Just showing a different perspective. I think our culture tends to look for conspiracy theories, and this one was definitely the flavor of the month a while back.

My suggestion is if you’re not interested in using Heritage, you definitely should not. I and many others will continue to use their platform for both buying and selling as it accomplishes a purpose for me in my own personal hobby passion.  

The only thing I am passionate about is the truth.

I do not view this as a conspiracy; I have seen high up manipulation, with my own eyes, so my perspective of knowing that it goes on shapes how I look at this. I can understand how that video you posted could be viewed as a different perspective, but since it fails to provide any compelling argument refuting any of the critical information, I personally see it as a salty collector posting a video because he is in denial that there could possibly be any manipulation in the hobby. As I've said elsewhere (and it's not news) clearly not all items in all auctions are shilled and faked. But the evidence against Heritage and Wata with Jim at the middle is damning.

And I appreciate the suggestion, but as I had just said, savvy collectors will still buy anywhere there is something they like, and simply not pay more than they are comfortable doing. Since I consider myself a (somewhat) savvy collector, and I love comic books and comic art, I will continue using Heritage as I always have.