TALES TO ASTONISH 101 - ???? 4 4

[grendelbo]

On 4/12/2022 at 9:38 PM, Axe Elf said:

Yes, and to me, a detached centerfold indicates a book that is in no better than G/VG condition--no matter how pretty it is otherwise.

Just like if you have an otherwise 9.0 book that has a full length color breaking crease.  You can't say, "Well, I can't dock it five full points for a full length color-breaking crease; let's just call it a 7.0 instead of a 4.0."

Depends on the weight you're giving to individual defects.

A full-length color-breaking crease is much worse than a detached centerfold, IMO.

[grendelbo]

On 4/12/2022 at 9:40 PM, Axe Elf said:

I'm probly gonna get my butt kicked in the grading contest

I think you'll do quite well.

[DR.X]

On 4/12/2022 at 10:40 PM, Axe Elf said:

I'm probly gonna get my butt kicked in the grading contest, but I'd still be torqued if I paid 7.0 price for a comic of any value and got one with a detached centerfold.

well you're comparing two different things here. of course anyone would be pizzed if they bought a raw 7.0 and found the centerfold was detached, and not disclosed. buying a 7.0 CGC graded with a detached centerfold is another thing. Would I buy a graded 7.0 with a detached center fold. No.

Edited April 13, 2022 by DR.X

[Axe Elf]

On 4/12/2022 at 10:43 PM, DR.X said:

Would I buy a graded 7.0 with a detached center fold. No.

I may be wrong, but I think that would be the overwhelming consensus among collectors--which in and of itself is evidence that a book with a detached centerfold should never be graded 7.0, because we all know there are better 7.0s out there.

[DR.X]

Thanks for all the input people. I'll fix this problem in the morning with my staple gun.

[Februus]

Good discussion.. still 5.0 with the detached CF had this been a 9.6 you would’ve got hammered 

[grendelbo]

On 4/12/2022 at 11:04 PM, Februus said:

Good discussion.. still 5.0 with the detached CF had this been a 9.6 you would’ve got hammered 

9.6 drops to a 7.5? Anyone think any higher?

(GA bump if I've ever seen one.)

Edited April 13, 2022 by grendelbo

[Februus]

I think that would be the best you could expect on an otherwise pristine copy. It’s the subjective part of grading 

[grendelbo]

On 4/12/2022 at 11:15 PM, Februus said:

I think that would be the best you could expect on an otherwise pristine copy. It’s the subjective part of grading 

I can't find any examples with higher grades unless the centerfold is only detached at one staple.

[Mars76]

4.0

[Februus]

On 4/12/2022 at 10:18 PM, grendelbo said:

I can't find any examples with higher grades unless the centerfold is only detached at one staple.

I was gonna say 7.0 as the highest…. Thanks for digging those examples up .. you’ve enlightened a lot of us here 

[grendelbo]

On 4/12/2022 at 11:24 PM, Februus said:

I was gonna say 7.0 as the highest…. Thanks for digging those examples up .. you’ve enlightened a lot of us here 

Just trying to figure it out.

Let's see what others say...

@Funnybooks

@Galen130

@marvelmaniac

@Point Five

 

[The Lions Den]

On 4/12/2022 at 11:15 PM, Axe Elf said:

I mean, I get that there are pics.  But I defy anyone to show me any widely-accepted grading standard that allows for a detached centerfold in anything above 4.0 (VG) condition.

It may rock you, it may even shock you, but there are numerous examples out there already. Perhaps not widely accepted by everyone yet, but as time goes by, you will learn to love big brother...

[zzutak]

On 4/12/2022 at 12:30 PM, DR.X said:

Structurally this book is around a 5.0 but the C.F. is detached.

A completely detached centerfold has little or no impact at the "otherwise 5.0 VG/FN" condition level.  That being said, this defect (like all significant "hidden" defects) should absolutely be disclosed by the seller in his/her listing, as it may be important to some potential buyers. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by zzutak

[zzutak]

When I deconstructed CGC's proprietary grading rubric in 2010, I concluded that "a lightly worn book with a completely detached centerfold will have a Universal Grade of 6.5 to 7.0".  Earlier in this thread, grendlebo provided evidence that CGC has been slightly more generous on at least one occasion.  I actually have three examples in my own image library:

   

Three examples out of 7.5 million books certified is a pretty small percentage.  As I see it, there are three possible explanations:

1. CGC's grading standards with respect to detachment defects have changed since 2010 (it should be noted that the three books shown above have grade dates of Mar 2014, Oct 2015, and Jan 2018).
2. These three examples are due to misinterpretation/misapplication of CGC's grading standards (that is, simple human error).
3. These three examples are actually labeling errors (aka typographical errors).  Someone checked the wrong box.

One thing I have learned since 2010 is that CGC is neither as consistent nor as error-free as it was in the early days.  These are just two of the downsides typically associated with rapid growth (which often compels an organization to limit training, mentoring, and/or supervision).

Bottom line?  Until I hear differently from a person truly in the know, I'm going to treat the above three examples as anomalies and stand by my 2010 conclusion: a detached centerfold on an otherwise pristine book should result in a maximum grade of 7.0 FN/VF. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by zzutak

[Funnybooks]

Trying to compare Overstreets standards to CgC standards can be a fools errand...

For better or for worse, CgC with it's undisclosed grading criteria has become the industry standard and will likely continue to be so until PGeX can get it's act together 

completely anecdotal and without any actual facts to back it up completely...it seems as if a copy with a completely detached centerfold has a ceiling of 7.0/7.5 whereas any copy otherwise 7.0/7.5 or under, this defect becomes negligible in the grade.

debate....

 

 

[DR.X]

On 4/13/2022 at 6:49 AM, Funnybooks said:

Trying to compare Overstreets standards to CgC standards can be a fools errand...

for sure, as we will never know what CGC's standards are. all we can do is have discussion's like this and try and get a ball park figure. this has been a great discussion, and again, thanks to all that chimed in. like I said earlier, if there "is" a certain point drop given to a detached centerfold, I would think it would have to apply evenly across a spectrum of grades without said defect.  Thanks ZZUTACK & GRENDELBO for showing us those examples.

[Funnybooks]

yes...great examples from @grendelbo and @zzutak

"if there "is" a certain point drop given to a detached centerfold, I would think it would have to apply evenly across a spectrum of grades without said defect"

This is most important...consistency...otherwise, it's chaos

Edited April 13, 2022 by Funnybooks

[DR.X]

This discussion reminds me of the old days around here when had discussions like this all the time, and learned something.

[zzutak]

On 4/12/2022 at 8:34 PM, DR.X said:

I don't think you can have different grade deductions for structurally different books.

Doc!    This is 100% contrary to all grading rubrics developed for comics.  No grading scheme I'm aware of assigns a fixed grade/point deduction for a particular defect.  The mantra has always been 'the more otherwise perfect the book, the more significant the deduction for a particular defect." 

For example, a 4" long color-breaking crease on an otherwise VF/NM copy will drop the grade to FN (a deduction of 6 grade increments).  That very same defect on an otherwise GD or FR copy counts for nothing.  A missing page on an otherwise Gem Mint 10.0 copy will drop the grade to PR (a drop of 9.5 points).  That same missing page on an otherwise VG copy will also drop the grade to PR (a drop of only 3.5 points).

There have always been maximum grades for particular defects (such as "a book with a completely detached cover shall grade no higher than 4.0 VG" or "a book with a detached and completely split cover shall grade no higher than 1.0 FR").  However, I don't believe I've ever seen a scheme that assigns specific grade/point deductions for specific defects.   

Edited April 15, 2022 by zzutak