Isn't "Trimming" the Same as "pieces missing" 2 2

[Old Proletariat]

CGC Grade "Poor" 0.5 

"A heavily defaced collectible with a number major defects. Some pieces will also be missing."

Isn't trimming just missing pieces ?   It seems subjective.

[marvelmaniac]

Trimming would be a Restorative process to give the book straight edges, yes technically the pieces that are trimmed are now missing, however, when the grading standards refer to "pieces missing" they are referring to actual pieces that have torn away from the cover(s) or interior pages due to mishandling or age, depending on the severity of the missing piece(s) added to the overall condition of the book determines the grade,  a trimmed book or a book with missing pieces makes no difference on a PR 0.5, the book has other defects besides those that make the book a PR 0.5.

If you read the grading standards they actually specify how big a missing piece may be for each grade, just remember, grading is not a black and white endeavor, there are a lot of grey areas since you could have an other wise higher grade book with a small defect only allowed in a lower grade book, depending on the severity you have to determine how much of a hit the higher grade book with the minor/major lower grade defect, grading is subjective, show the book to three different people and you may get three different answers, CGC is no different.

Pages Trimmed - The top, bottom and right-hand edge of the comic (or possibly interior pages) have been trimmed with a paper cutter, hand blade, or pneumatic cutter to hide edge defects.

https://www.comicbookdaily.com/collecting-community/detecting-restoration/trimming/#:~:text=If every other copy of,book has probably been trimmed.

https://comics.ha.com/tutorial/comics-grading.s?show=comicdefinitions

These are examples of "pieces missing".

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by marvelmaniac

[theCapraAegagrus]

No.

[MattTheDuck]

"just?"

[Qalyar]

On 5/4/2022 at 12:03 AM, Old Proletariat said:

CGC Grade "Poor" 0.5 

"A heavily defaced collectible with a number major defects. Some pieces will also be missing."

Isn't trimming just missing pieces ?   It seems subjective.

This "just" seems like a suspiciously pointed way to make a first post here. Sad that your trimmed books don't get blue labels, I'm guessing?

[Old Proletariat]

On 5/4/2022 at 11:57 AM, Qalyar said:

This "just" seems like a suspiciously pointed way to make a first post here. Sad that your trimmed books don't get blue labels, I'm guessing?

Haven't submitted anything yet.

Just had to refund a bunch because I didn't pay attention to the straight edges of some comic book pages.  I know one "missing pieces" is intentional and the other is natural.  I just looked at the grading scales and noticed missing pieces was on it and thought,  wtf?  

[Old Proletariat]

On 5/4/2022 at 1:26 PM, Old Proletariat said:

Haven't submitted anything yet.

Just had to refund a bunch because I didn't pay attention to the straight edges of some comic book pages.  I know one "missing pieces" is intentional and the other is natural.  I just looked at the grading scales and noticed missing pieces was on it and thought,  wtf?  

this wasn't just me trying to think up something to make a first post.  The trimmed missing pieces vs naturally occurring missing pieces is the only reason I signed up here to ask the question.  Otherwise I probably wouldn't have signed up.  

I know sooner or later I am going to have to start listing CGC graded comics instead of going out on my own with my own description of the comic.

 

 

[FFB]

On 5/4/2022 at 11:26 AM, Old Proletariat said:

Haven't submitted anything yet.

Just had to refund a bunch because I didn't pay attention to the straight edges of some comic book pages.  I know one "missing pieces" is intentional and the other is natural.  I just looked at the grading scales and noticed missing pieces was on it and thought,  wtf?  

I always thought that trimmed books should be graded as "pieces missing," since the book isn't really "restored" in the true sense of the word.  In my opinion, the highest grade a trimmed book could get is a 3.0 even if the book looks perfect.  I posted about this here 15 years ago or so, and naturally, no one agreed with me.  

[grendelbo]

On 5/4/2022 at 4:54 PM, FFB said:

I always thought that trimmed books should be graded as "pieces missing," since the book isn't really "restored" in the true sense of the word.  In my opinion, the highest grade a trimmed book could get is a 3.0 even if the book looks perfect.  I posted about this here 15 years ago or so, and naturally, no one agreed with me.  

I'm not entirely opposed to the idea.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 5/4/2022 at 6:54 PM, FFB said:

I always thought that trimmed books should be graded as "pieces missing," since the book isn't really "restored" in the true sense of the word.  In my opinion, the highest grade a trimmed book could get is a 3.0 even if the book looks perfect.  I posted about this here 15 years ago or so, and naturally, no one agreed with me.  

Maybe CGC should change the green label to "Modified". Value stamp missing, trimmed, etc could fall under this category as they're not "restored" per se, but they are not whole.

[FFB]

On 5/5/2022 at 8:12 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Maybe CGC should change the green label to "Modified". Value stamp missing, trimmed, etc could fall under this category as they're not "restored" per se, but they are not whole.

In sports cards, they grade it "Altered."  I'd be in favor of that, personally.  But that's just one aspect of the issue.  I think it's better to blue-label trimmed books with a maximum grade of 3.0 and a trimmed/altered notation, than to purple-label them and pretend like the missing pieces can somehow be ignored in favor of a higher apparent grade.  Missing pieces are missing pieces and the grade should reflect that.  

[Qalyar]

On 5/4/2022 at 5:54 PM, FFB said:

I always thought that trimmed books should be graded as "pieces missing," since the book isn't really "restored" in the true sense of the word.  In my opinion, the highest grade a trimmed book could get is a 3.0 even if the book looks perfect.  I posted about this here 15 years ago or so, and naturally, no one agreed with me.  

For better or worse, the practice of "restoration" in comics has for decades meant "altering the book to improve its appearance".

If I had a time machine and god-emperor control over CGC's initial decisions, I would likely have made their label categories be:

• Universal, largely as it is now. "Pieces missing" books -- including clipped coupons and missing MVS -- get Universal labels but with hard-capped very low grades, and with a label notation.
• Altered, including any intentional or seemingly-intentional changes to the book outside of specifically permitted conservation. So this gets all the trimmed books, all the color-touched books, the books with married covers or folds... and the books with unwitnessed signatures and sketches. There's still a categorization system for extent of alteration and a label notation for what was done to the book.
• Qualified, which now holds largely production oddities, like the books with incorrect interiors, double covers, staple-less production, ink variations serious enough to warrant notation, and so forth. Under this system, this is no longer a stigmatizing category, but one that highlights what would be considered errors, freaks, and oddities in philately. Obviously, there will still be vigorous debate over what books get a Universal label "Error Printing" vs. a Qualified label, but c'est la vie.
• Conserved, which has a much tighter definition than it does now, permitting only specifically authorized conservation processes and materials.
• Signature Series, as currently exists.

As with the current system, it's possible to get bicolor labels when more than one non-Universal category applies. However, I the ship's largely sailed, and the system is what it is.