Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1950's. (1956) Separating the Men from the Boys PART TWO 3 3

[Prince Namor]

On 7/17/2022 at 6:56 PM, mrc said:

Stan had his own view of the creative process, Kirby had his. They worked in a collaboration It will always be a grey area but I don't think he 'stole' anything from anyone.

The only people who see it as a grey area are Stan Lee apologists. 

On 7/17/2022 at 6:56 PM, mrc said:

Effective delegation is an essential management technique for business success. 

Yeah. With great power comes a great sense of entitlement. 

[PopKulture]

We always hear about Kirby and Ditko working with Lee and the fabled “Marvel Method.” Who else was similarly adept working within this nebulous sphere of creation? Was Wood doing the heavy lifting on Daredevil (as I recall hearing whispers)? Did Don Heck help plot stories? What about Gene Colan? 
 

Asking for a friend…  

[Prince Namor]

On 7/18/2022 at 1:15 AM, PopKulture said:

We always hear about Kirby and Ditko working with Lee and the fabled “Marvel Method.” Who else was similarly adept working within this nebulous sphere of creation?

'Adept?' Romita would be the closest, and he spent 7 years doing Romance at DC, which is noticeable in how he created storylines in ASM. 

Romita said himself that sometimes Stan would give him no more than a note on his desk 'bring back the Rhino' and he'd have to work it from there. 

(Romita: The only thing he used to do from 1966-72 was come in and leave a note on my drawing table saying “Next Month, the Rhino.” That’s all; he wouldn’t tell me anything; how to handle it. - Comic Book Artist Magazine 2002)

But the rest... were average at best. That's why Iron Man and Daredevil were mediocre sellers for most of their run, until they got (essentially) rewritten and fleshed out in the 80's by creative talent.

Once Kirby did layouts for the first few issues, those guys were on their own. Both artists Heck and Colan (and even Tuska) were adept at sequential storytelling, just not as adept at writing.

The proof is in the lasting interest.  

You take an average issue of ASM, say #59... and it was reprinted 6 times by Marvel since it came out. (FF #59 is 7 times).

Daredevil #59 - 1st and only time in 2005. Iron Man #59 - 1st and only time in 2010. 

(Green Lantern #59 - 4 times and Flash #183 - 2 times....)

On 7/18/2022 at 1:15 AM, PopKulture said:

Was Wood doing the heavy lifting on Daredevil (as I recall hearing whispers)? Did Don Heck help plot stories? What about Gene Colan? 
 

Asking for a friend…  

I'll let Wally Wood speak for himself:

Wood: I enjoyed working with Stan [Lee] on Daredevil but for one thing. I had to make up the whole story. He was being paid for writing, and I was being paid for drawing, but he didn't have any ideas. I'd go in for a plotting session, and we'd just stare at each other until I came up with a storyline. I felt like I was writing the book but not being paid for writing.

Evanier: You did write one issue, as I recall--

Wood: One yes [Daredevil #10]. I persuaded him to let me write one by myself since I was doing 99% of the writing already. I wrote it, handed it in, and he said it was hopeless. He said he'd have to rewrite it all and write the next issue himself. Well, I said I couldn't contribute to the storyline unless I got paid something for writing, and Stan said he'd look into it, but after that he only had inking for me. Bob Powell was suddenly pencilling Daredevil.[Later on in the interview] ... I saw [Daredevil #10] when it came out, and Stan had changed five words---less than an editor usually changes. I think that was the last straw.

- The Life and Legend of Wallace Wood, Vol. 1

---------------------------

And this:

Yet another classic creator, Joe Orlando, was recruited after him (Bill Everett) and chafed under what he identified as Stan’s desire to have art that looked like Kirby’s, so he quit… admitted Orlando, “was that I wasn’t Jack Kirby. Jack - or Ditko, or just a couple of others - could take a couple of sentences of plot and bring in 20 pages that Stan could dialogue in an afternoon or two. When I drew out the story my way, Stan would go over it and say, ‘this panel needs to be changed’ and ‘this whole page needs to be changed’ and on and on. I didn’t plot it out the way he wanted the story told, so I wound up drawing at least half of every story twice. They weren’t paying enough for that so I quit.”

-True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee

---------------------------

Gil Kane: ...Stan made so many requirements of me as a writer, though – a couple of times I said “Look, if you don’t like what I’m doing, do it yourself!” but he didn’t want that, he just wanted to take the artwork home at night and there, from after dinner until 2 or 3 in the morning he’d write...

[shadroch]

On 7/18/2022 at 8:44 AM, Prince Namor said:

'Adept?' Romita would be the closest, and he spent 7 years doing Romance at DC, which is noticeable in how he created storylines in ASM. 

Romita said himself that sometimes Stan would give him no more than a note on his desk 'bring back the Rhino' and he'd have to work it from there. 

(Romita: The only thing he used to do from 1966-72 was come in and leave a note on my drawing table saying “Next Month, the Rhino.” That’s all; he wouldn’t tell me anything; how to handle it. - Comic Book Artist Magazine 2002)

But the rest... were average at best. That's why Iron Man and Daredevil were mediocre sellers for most of their run, until they got (essentially) rewritten and fleshed out in the 80's by creative talent.

Once Kirby did layouts for the first few issues, those guys were on their own. Both artists Heck and Colan (and even Tuska) were adept at sequential storytelling, just not as adept at writing.

The proof is in the lasting interest.  

You take an average issue of ASM, say #59... and it was reprinted 6 times by Marvel since it came out. (FF #59 is 7 times).

Daredevil #59 - 1st and only time in 2005. Iron Man #59 - 1st and only time in 2010. 

(Green Lantern #59 - 4 times and Flash #183 - 2 times....)

I'll let Wally Wood speak for himself:

Wood: I enjoyed working with Stan [Lee] on Daredevil but for one thing. I had to make up the whole story. He was being paid for writing, and I was being paid for drawing, but he didn't have any ideas. I'd go in for a plotting session, and we'd just stare at each other until I came up with a storyline. I felt like I was writing the book but not being paid for writing.

Evanier: You did write one issue, as I recall--

Wood: One yes [Daredevil #10]. I persuaded him to let me write one by myself since I was doing 99% of the writing already. I wrote it, handed it in, and he said it was hopeless. He said he'd have to rewrite it all and write the next issue himself. Well, I said I couldn't contribute to the storyline unless I got paid something for writing, and Stan said he'd look into it, but after that he only had inking for me. Bob Powell was suddenly pencilling Daredevil.[Later on in the interview] ... I saw [Daredevil #10] when it came out, and Stan had changed five words---less than an editor usually changes. I think that was the last straw.

- The Life and Legend of Wallace Wood, Vol. 1

--------------------------

---------------------------

Gil Kane: ...Stan made so many requirements of me as a writer, though – a couple of times I said “Look, if you don’t like what I’m doing, do it yourself!” but he didn’t want that, he just wanted to take the artwork home at night and there, from after dinner until 2 or 3 in the morning he’d write...

If Stan spent his evenings until 2 or 3 in the morning writing, I wonder what he did in his day job?

[MattTheDuck]

"Romita said himself that sometimes Stan would give him no more than a note on his desk 'bring back the Rhino' and he'd have to work it from there."

Well, we know with some precision when that note was delivered!  

[Pat Thomas]

They're both dead and gone now. Stan had to listen to this from the time Jack died until he finally passed away a couple of years ago. I never once heard him say a negative thing about Kirby or Ditko, even though he was constantly being grilled by both of their cults (and families when they realized they could squeeze some money from the evil corporation). From what I understand, the Kirby family ended up with a large settlement, so why keep harping on it? The money wouldn't even be there if Stan hadn't promoted the hell out of Marvel. People outside of comics recognized him since the 1980's. Let all 3 of those guys rest in peace.

[sfcityduck]

On 7/18/2022 at 8:44 AM, Prince Namor said:

'Adept?' Romita would be the closest, and he spent 7 years doing Romance at DC, which is noticeable in how he created storylines in ASM. 

Romita said himself that sometimes Stan would give him no more than a note on his desk 'bring back the Rhino' and he'd have to work it from there. 

(Romita: The only thing he used to do from 1966-72 was come in and leave a note on my drawing table saying “Next Month, the Rhino.” That’s all; he wouldn’t tell me anything; how to handle it. - Comic Book Artist Magazine 2002)

But the rest... were average at best. That's why Iron Man and Daredevil were mediocre sellers for most of their run, until they got (essentially) rewritten and fleshed out in the 80's by creative talent.

Once Kirby did layouts for the first few issues, those guys were on their own. Both artists Heck and Colan (and even Tuska) were adept at sequential storytelling, just not as adept at writing.

The proof is in the lasting interest.  

You take an average issue of ASM, say #59... and it was reprinted 6 times by Marvel since it came out. (FF #59 is 7 times).

Daredevil #59 - 1st and only time in 2005. Iron Man #59 - 1st and only time in 2010. 

(Green Lantern #59 - 4 times and Flash #183 - 2 times....)

I'll let Wally Wood speak for himself:

Wood: I enjoyed working with Stan [Lee] on Daredevil but for one thing. I had to make up the whole story. He was being paid for writing, and I was being paid for drawing, but he didn't have any ideas. I'd go in for a plotting session, and we'd just stare at each other until I came up with a storyline. I felt like I was writing the book but not being paid for writing.

Evanier: You did write one issue, as I recall--

Wood: One yes [Daredevil #10]. I persuaded him to let me write one by myself since I was doing 99% of the writing already. I wrote it, handed it in, and he said it was hopeless. He said he'd have to rewrite it all and write the next issue himself. Well, I said I couldn't contribute to the storyline unless I got paid something for writing, and Stan said he'd look into it, but after that he only had inking for me. Bob Powell was suddenly pencilling Daredevil.[Later on in the interview] ... I saw [Daredevil #10] when it came out, and Stan had changed five words---less than an editor usually changes. I think that was the last straw.

- The Life and Legend of Wallace Wood, Vol. 1

---------------------------

And this:

Yet another classic creator, Joe Orlando, was recruited after him (Bill Everett) and chafed under what he identified as Stan’s desire to have art that looked like Kirby’s, so he quit… admitted Orlando, “was that I wasn’t Jack Kirby. Jack - or Ditko, or just a couple of others - could take a couple of sentences of plot and bring in 20 pages that Stan could dialogue in an afternoon or two. When I drew out the story my way, Stan would go over it and say, ‘this panel needs to be changed’ and ‘this whole page needs to be changed’ and on and on. I didn’t plot it out the way he wanted the story told, so I wound up drawing at least half of every story twice. They weren’t paying enough for that so I quit.”

-True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee

---------------------------

Gil Kane: ...Stan made so many requirements of me as a writer, though – a couple of times I said “Look, if you don’t like what I’m doing, do it yourself!” but he didn’t want that, he just wanted to take the artwork home at night and there, from after dinner until 2 or 3 in the morning he’d write...

To recap:

* Stan was very active in editing the art, including asking for extensive redraws when he felt the art didn't advance the story. We also know this from tales about mounds of rejected pencilled pages by Kirby, etc. sitting in the office that were used to test out prospective inkers.

* Stan was dialoguing the books from dinner time to 2 or 3 in the morning. We know Stan dialogued because Stan's dialogue was distinctive, in a similar style on all books, and very very successful. The info on how late he was working is telling and positive.

* A book he didn't dialogue was one Daredevil book Wood wrote. We all know this because Wood was credited in the book for the --script!  Cuts against the assertion Stan was taking credit for work he didn't do.

Taken together, the above quotes do not add up to Stan not doing any work. Sounds like there's no dispute that Stan was doing a lot of editing and dialoguing work. He must have been a very hard worker. The only dispute appears to be the division of input on plots. That was the essential attribute of the Marvel method - the artists not working off of full scripts. Some artists liked it, others didn't. Hardly, the criminal case the OP is trying to make out.

Edited July 19, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Prince Namor]

On 7/19/2022 at 6:57 AM, Pat Thomas said:

They're both dead and gone now. Stan had to listen to this from the time Jack died until he finally passed away a couple of years ago.

That's the price you pay when you go into a court of law and lie under oath about someone who essentially helped make you a celebrity. Without Jack Kirby, Stan Lee would've never achieved any level of success in the business. 

On 7/19/2022 at 6:57 AM, Pat Thomas said:

I never once heard him say a negative thing about Kirby or Ditko, even though he was constantly being grilled by both of their cults

Cults? It's Stan's fans who are cult like. And Stan SHOULD say positive things about Jack and Steve. Without them he'd have never achieved any level of success in the business. 

On 7/19/2022 at 6:57 AM, Pat Thomas said:

(and families when they realized they could squeeze some money from the evil corporation).

Like Stan did? When he strong armed Marvel into a Million Dollar a year contract (plus other incentives) to NOT take them to court and claim ownership of the characters?

On 7/19/2022 at 6:57 AM, Pat Thomas said:

From what I understand, the Kirby family ended up with a large settlement, so why keep harping on it? The money wouldn't even be there if Stan hadn't promoted the hell out of Marvel. People outside of comics recognized him since the 1980's. Let all 3 of those guys rest in peace.

You're more than welcome to join the conversation. You're NOT more than welcome to tell me what I can and can't talk about. 

[Prince Namor]

I knew this would happen as we got into the 2nd half of 1956... Kirby's stories, without Joe Simon (or Stan Lee) start to get even better and begin to resemble stories he'd do during the Marvel Age... and of course Stan's cult like followers get freaked out about it. Face Front True Believers! Guys like Stan Lee and Bob Kane will always have a lasting place in history! They've told their lies over and over and over so many times that... well, more people believe it than not. 

But the truth is in the comics... and that's why I posted them. So people can SEE. It gets worse for Stan in 1957... Goodman just about puts Atlas out of business and Jack just keeps on creating amazing stories in Challengers of the Unknown (as well as a LOT more DC work), a prototype for Kamandi's future world, a prototype for the Living Eraser (that Stan would later take credit for creating), a single issue of the Black Rider (Western) just before the Atlas implosion, and much much more!

I know you can't wait!

Edited July 20, 2022 by Prince Namor

[sfcityduck]

On 7/19/2022 at 2:48 PM, Prince Namor said:

I knew this would happen as we got into the 2nd half of 1956... Kirby's stories, without Joe Simon (or Stan Lee) start to get even better and begin to resemble stories he'd do during the Silver Age.

You might have more credibility if you got the facts straight. 1956 is Silver Age!

[shadroch]

[Pat Thomas]

On 7/19/2022 at 4:48 PM, Prince Namor said:

I knew this would happen as we got into the 2nd half of 1956... Kirby's stories, without Joe Simon (or Stan Lee) start to get even better and begin to resemble stories he'd do during the Marvel Age... and of course Stan's cult like followers get freaked out about it. Face Front True Believers! Guys like Stan Lee and Bob Kane will always have a lasting place in history! They've told their lies over and over and over so many times that... well, more people believe it than not. 

But the truth is in the comics... and that's why I posted them. So people can SEE. It gets worse for Stan in 1957... Goodman just about puts Atlas out of business and Jack just keeps on creating amazing stories in Challengers of the Unknown (as well as a LOT more DC work), a prototype for Kamandi's future world, a prototype for the Living Eraser (that Stan would later take credit for creating), a single issue of the Black Rider (Western) just before the Atlas implosion, and much much more!

I know you can't wait!

To be honest, I really don't care. I think it's ridiculous to even rehash old arguments about people who are no longer here regarding feuds 40-50 years old.  Reminds me of Spider-Man fans who still can't move on from Peter and MJ being de-married 14 years ago. I suppose in 30 years some of them will still be upset about it and use whatever platform comic people gather on to speculate when it will be reversed.

Keep crusading if that's what makes you happy, though. I won't interrupt your thread anymore.

[Prince Namor]

On 7/21/2022 at 8:16 PM, Pat Thomas said:

To be honest, I really don't care. I think it's ridiculous to even rehash old arguments about people who are no longer here regarding feuds 40-50 years old. 

Continuing to discuss history of real people and places and things sometimes wields amazing results. That’s why we don’t think the earth is flat anymore (well, most people) or that the earth is no longer the center of the universe. 

On 7/21/2022 at 8:16 PM, Pat Thomas said:

Reminds me of Spider-Man fans who still can't move on from Peter and MJ being de-married 14 years ago. I suppose in 30 years some of them will still be upset about it and use whatever platform comic people gather on to speculate when it will be reversed.

More power to them. Not my thing, but whatever floats their boat. Doesn’t bother me. I sure won’t go into their thread and tell them they’re wrong. 

On 7/21/2022 at 8:16 PM, Pat Thomas said:

Keep crusading if that's what makes you happy, though. I won't interrupt your thread anymore.

Thanks!

[Humpty-Dumpty]

I'm still a bit disappointed Gwen was killed off. I always considered a good match for Peter.

[shadroch]

On 7/21/2022 at 9:15 PM, Humpty-Dumpty said:

I'm still a bit disappointed Gwen was killed off. I always considered a good match for Peter.

If it was a bad idea, it was Stan's. If it was a good idea, it was lifted from a story Kirby either did, or meant to do, or would have done if he wasn't too busy doing other great things. 

[Prince Namor]

On 7/22/2022 at 10:01 AM, shadroch said:

If it was a bad idea, it was Stan's. If it was a good idea, it was lifted from a story Kirby either did, or meant to do, or would have done if he wasn't too busy doing other great things. 

It was neither. 
Romita suggested it when talk of killing someone off came up because he didn’t care for Gwen as a character and far preferred MJ. 
According to both Conway and Romita, Stan DID sign off on it, in brief passing without much thought. 
So, no, he didn’t really have anything to do with it. It was the current creative team on the book. 
Stan did however, due to fan pressure, tell Conway (according to him) to bring Gwen BACK. And that’s where the whole Clone nonsense first began.