The Press and Pray game ..... defiantly lost this round 4 4

[KirbyTown]

On 7/15/2022 at 7:17 AM, David Evilla said:

I didn’t want to wait with CCS. heard turn around times were a year.

At first I didn't realize this wasn't CCS, and then things started to make a lot more sense.

I'm still so eager to hear whether those water notes were only on ones sent to that presser!

[KirbyTown]

On 7/14/2022 at 8:22 PM, comicginger1789 said:

and says things in videos like “it’s your boy…”

"and without further ado, lets get right into it..." 

[KirbyTown]

On 7/14/2022 at 7:52 PM, thehumantorch said:

thread, who's name rhymes with "glowie roast'

I too prefer the work of snowy coast; been using him since back when he was still Bowie's ghost

Edited July 15, 2022 by KirbyTown

[joeypost]

You cannot take short cuts. It’s that simple. Even what most consider easy moderns can be ruined by not following all the necessary steps, as is evident by everyone complaining about their grades   on books published within the last 5 years. 
 

 

[thehumantorch]

On 7/15/2022 at 6:17 AM, David Evilla said:

. 

I didn’t want to wait with CCS. heard turn around times were a year.

I have higher value and older books and these were just a test batch

It's better and cheaper in the long run to wait for a great presser to work on your books rather than use a presser who doesn't have a long wait time and very likely isn't as good.  I've considered other pressers because they're quicker but "smokie toast" has always got me superior results.

[Devilla06]

On 7/15/2022 at 2:13 PM, thehumantorch said:

It's better and cheaper in the long run to wait for a great presser to work on your books rather than use a presser who doesn't have a long wait time and very likely isn't as good.  I've considered other pressers because they're quicker but "smokie toast" has always got me superior results.

yea I have been just reading Batman New 52 and Rebirth. Got more heavily into the hobby outside of Batman during covid like most people. My brother collected and all my cousins they gave me their books when they "out grew it" so I had a lot of the garbage C/D/E/F/G marvel 1st appearnces that everyone wants because X is the new Spiderman or Batman hype. 

Everyone who mentioned the presser I used locally and on Facebook just raves about them. The 3-4 dealers in CT that I deal with also use this presser. So I was expecting better results. The two Detective Comics 880s I had from my pull at the LCS that I worked at in High school so super high grades. To come back 8 and a 8.5 is shocking.

Tho staining, wet marks, and worse spine damage on books without those notes before kind of annoy me.I already played the press and grade game to have to pay the $50 per book again for it to be done right is pretty annoying. Might just sell them as is and buy a 9.6 or just wait for Batman custom labels and try again.

Like the notes are either being really harsh or wasn't pressed great since I didn't give a huge order. It was a test before giving them my more expensive books I am just super disappointed. 

 

 

[joeypost]

On 7/15/2022 at 3:29 PM, David Evilla said:

yea I have been just reading Batman New 52 and Rebirth. Got more heavily into the hobby outside of Batman during covid like most people. My brother collected and all my cousins they gave me their books when they "out grew it" so I had a lot of the garbage C/D/E/F/G marvel 1st appearnces that everyone wants because X is the new Spiderman or Batman hype. 

Everyone who mentioned the presser I used locally and on Facebook just raves about them. The 3-4 dealers in CT that I deal with also use this presser. So I was expecting better results. The two Detective Comics 880s I had from my pull at the LCS that I worked at in High school so super high grades. To come back 8 and a 8.5 is shocking.

Tho staining, wet marks, and worse spine damage on books without those notes before kind of annoy me.I already played the press and grade game to have to pay the $50 per book again for it to be done right is pretty annoying. Might just sell them as is and buy a 9.6 or just wait for Batman custom labels and try again.

Like the notes are either being really harsh or wasn't pressed great since I didn't give a huge order. It was a test before giving them my more expensive books I am just super disappointed. 

 

 

Where do you live?

[KirbyTown]

On 7/15/2022 at 2:29 PM, David Evilla said:

I am just super disappointed

Really sorry this happened to you. If the spots on the books are on notes from after you sent them to the presser, then it's obvious to me that they'd likely be responsible. There's only one point at which water would have anything to do with your comic books and it would be at the presser.

Edited July 15, 2022 by KirbyTown

[Qalyar]

On 7/14/2022 at 4:08 PM, David Evilla said:

Batman 423 - this one went down 2 grades from an 8.5 to a 7.5 this one hurt alot

After press (pages are white not not off white like when it was a 8.5 !!!)

Notes 

light creasing to cover

light staining to cover  (never mentioned staining before)

moderate spine stress lines to cover (this got worse....)

 

 

 

Before Press

Grader notes 

light finger bends on cover

light scuffing to cover

light spine stress lines to cover

Ba

So, it's always tough evaluating books from pictures of slabs, because we've got a fixed lighting angle and the case sometimes obscures features (and, especially in photos, adds reflections). In particular,y it's almost impossible to see bends or some creases in images like this. With all that out of the way:

• The spine problems were made worse, not better. Look where the outstretched wing of the second bat from the top left is pointing. There was a spine tick there in the 8.5 slab, but it didn't completely break the color of the black frame line; now, it does. The same thing is true of the spine tick below the last bat on the left. I don't see two other spine ticks -- one just below the fourth bat, and one just above the logo/UPC box -- in the image of the original, although there may be some lighting at work here.
• I suspect the "light staining to cover" is the discoloration at the top of the yellow field of the... erm, moon? Sun? Whatever, this is about Batman, not astronomy, right? Regardless, sure, this might be a camera trick or a case reflection, but I think that looks an awful lot like some grime got redistributed onto the cover, perhaps during the presser's cleaning process.

I suppose the Devil's Advocate position is that these issues could have occurred at CGC rather than at your presser. Certainly, there have been more handling errors at CGC recently than there should ever have been. But in this case, where the issues appear to be an exacerbation of existing defects and/or the sort of new problems that I'd expect to be associated with... less-than-top-notch pressing? I don't think CGC is responsible. And I do think this book deserves a worse technical grade than it started with. My condolences.

As a personal aside, the miscolored sections of the moon/sun/whatever have always bugged me to no end on this book. It wanted to be such a cool cover, but then that slipped through.

[Devilla06]

On 7/15/2022 at 5:15 PM, joeypost said:

Where do you live?

Farmington it’s a suburb of Hartford.

[joeypost]

On 7/15/2022 at 6:46 PM, David Evilla said:

Farmington it’s a suburb of Hartford.

If you were local I could review them for you. 

[Sand1man]

David

As you know, pressing and pressers are two different things.  The results from pressing(s) are equally subjective.  Pressing use to make a book more valuable years ago!  Now it seems pressing(s) reduces its value.  But I agree with you about the CGC notes - if the notes are useless why give them?  I know CGC, in its explanations, declares Notes are unrelated to the Grade....really?....  E.g., when my books came back the Notes remarked "Tape Removed" from from cover....there NEVER was any tape on the front cover!....but according to CGC there was !!!!  And it showed in a lower Grade to boot !  I think CGC, overall, is only about 30% as good as it use to be.  Anyway, don't let the Notes bother you.  Just make a decision if you want to "Gamble" with CGC again or not - because Facts don't seem to matter much to them.  Hey, but you could always get lucky if you put in a Very Large Order.....which seems to work for many of the collectors I personally know...  Nonetheless, David, I agree with your 1st post !!!

[Devilla06]

So this is the 1st Carnage that is missing a staple. With no grader notes. Like if you look at the raw copy it doesn't have staple holes.... 

Shouldn't that have been mentioned? 

The only thing I noticed before sending it in was the spine tick next to the $1.50 on the cover that I hope could be fixed with a press. 

Was this book Qualified and that's why I got a 9.4?

[joeypost]

On 7/16/2022 at 10:36 AM, David Evilla said:

So this is the 1st Carnage that is missing a staple. With no grader notes. Like if you look at the raw copy it doesn't have staple holes.... 

Shouldn't that have been mentioned? 

The only thing I noticed before sending it in was the spine tick next to the $1.50 on the cover that I hope could be fixed with a press. 

Was this book Qualified and that's why I got a 9.4?

 

 

 

 

 

Is that a tear under carnages knee? 

[KirbyTown]

On 7/16/2022 at 9:36 AM, David Evilla said:

Shouldn't that have been mentioned? 

Thanks for posting these pics; notes don't have to mention anything at all and manufacturing errors don't need to be either. This book got a blue label, so it was not a qualified label and the manufacturing defect didn't bring this down to a 9.4.

Without a true hi-res scan of the slab (similar to mycomicshop) there's no way to easily examine the comic for upper-nine style defects.

I marked a little of what I see as potential defects (Joey's possible tear would be enough!) Also, the comic seems to have amateur pressing ripples/wavies, which CGC doesn't care about but I'm just mentioning.

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by KirbyTown

[thehumantorch]

On 7/15/2022 at 6:25 PM, Sand1man said:

David

As you know, pressing and pressers are two different things.  The results from pressing(s) are equally subjective.  Pressing use to make a book more valuable years ago!  Now it seems pressing(s) reduces its value.  But I agree with you about the CGC notes - if the notes are useless why give them?  I know CGC, in its explanations, declares Notes are unrelated to the Grade....really?....  E.g., when my books came back the Notes remarked "Tape Removed" from from cover....there NEVER was any tape on the front cover!....but according to CGC there was !!!!  And it showed in a lower Grade to boot !  I think CGC, overall, is only about 30% as good as it use to be.  Anyway, don't let the Notes bother you.  Just make a decision if you want to "Gamble" with CGC again or not - because Facts don't seem to matter much to them.  Hey, but you could always get lucky if you put in a Very Large Order.....which seems to work for many of the collectors I personally know...  Nonetheless, David, I agree with your 1st post !!!

Pressing makes a book more valuable if it has defects that can be pressed, if pressing those defects will result in a higher grade, and if the book is pressed properly.  There are a lot of inexperienced pressers who've been attracted to the boom business and they can certainly damage books and reduce value.  

Submitting to CGC isn't a gamble and 'facts' do matter.  While CGC isn't 100% consistent their grades are quite predictable if you understand how they grade.  Understanding what defects can be removed by pressing and cleaning and understanding how that will affect a grade is also very predictable and very profitable.  The guys who know how CGC grades and understand how pressing and cleaning can affect grade are the guys who consistently get 'lucky'. 

I can't explain why CGC would identify 'tape removed' if it wasn't.  Perhaps you could start a thread about the book?

[KirbyTown]

On 7/15/2022 at 7:25 PM, Sand1man said:

Notes remarked "Tape Removed" from from cover....there NEVER was any tape on the front cover!

I've gotta see this, please post pics!

[Sand1man]

My apologies to David for hogging his thread - and I still believe your original post is correct.

First - thehumantorch.  There is way too much experience in this thread to debate pressing.  Like most, I know poor, average and very good pressers:  I know cheap, average and expensive pressing machines/techniques - But So What?  Its only my opinion.  CGC on the other hand is a different matter.  Again, like many, I've called CGC on their grading, multiple times, and lately literally - on the phone - twice, two different people.  They told me they were going to "investigate."  That was nearly 60 days ago - no reply  I offered presubmission pics (which can be a problem from CGC's point-of-view (and I respect that)) - but they weren't interested.  Fine.  But David, whom this thread concerns, made many valid points about CGC's inconsistencies and I agree with him.  My little community of collectors are having serious problems with CGC grading consistency.  We've even submitted two (2) of the same book (new - purchased from the distributor) [nearly identical] untouched by human-hands and received different grades  (2 points!), different notes (finger presses, etc.), and explanations on why it turned out that way (e.g., different graders have different opinions, etc.).  The only consistent factor is money:  When multiple books were submitted and the bill was thousands of dollars the results were MORE than great!  Consistently!  We even thought a few of those books "were gifts" in grading.  But when under 10 books were sumbitted and/or resubmitted with lower invoices - the grades were beyond belief LOW - Consistently!  When CGC went under new management and hired new graders, many of them couldn't hold a candle to the original crew.  Lastly, the old crew gave GREAT advice on how to improve your books to raise the current grade or on future submissions.  Not now!  Wam-Bam-Thank-You-Mam - that's it.  Its sad CGC has come to this.  Our little community continued to cater to CGC's new regime (though now 8 out of 10 have moved on!)  in the hope something would change...it hasn't.  I am one of the last to believe (In my circle) there's hope for CGC.  Lastly, as an aside, in my little circle, many didn't/don't have book graded for money/resale.  They're gifts to families and extended families - to enjoy for many years to come.  So, I disagree, facts........rarely........matter.

2nd - KirbyTown.  I am posting a screen shot of the Note that is suppose to be under "investigation."

Conclusion - So David, please forgive me hogging your thread.  It was not my intent.  But I believe you got the raw end of the deal - and you're not alone!  Different people have diferent opinions and things change over time.  That's life.  But as they say in poker, I'd rather be lucky than good - and so it is with CGC grading.

[KirbyTown]

On 7/17/2022 at 6:26 PM, Sand1man said:

 

Oh, tape PULL! That just means some ink is missing from the cover and it appears that tape removed it. All it takes is a touch!

[Sand1man]

Incorrent.  During my phone call, CGC remarked "tape pulled from cover" and that the matter will be investigated.  Nevertheless - there never was any tape in the 1st place.