Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1950's. (1957) Jack Kirby's Marvel Age has already begun! 2 2

[Prince Namor]

On 7/20/2022 at 4:25 PM, sfcityduck said:

Saying Al Jaffe left in 1956 before the implosion does not support your assertion that: "This [1957] would be the year that Atlas would lose many of the artist and writers who helped keep it together," an assertion you support by citing to the example of Al Jaffe. Instead, that Al Jaffe left in 1956 rebuts your assertion when coupled with your stats that show Atlas was going strong until they got hit with the title limitations in mid-1957. 

Simply put, the Atlas implosion was due to a bad distributor deal, not bad relationships with creators.

Why not just admit that? 

 

I never said it had anything to do with bad relationships with creators. Wasn't trying to make that connection or imply it in any way.

That's you making it up.

Al Jaffee loved Stan Lee. Got along with him great. John Severin too. 

Wally Wood of course hated him. Kurtzman wasn't too fond of him. Etc. 

But they did lose people people pre-Implosion, and they did lose A LOT MORE people because of the implosion, but... WE'RE NOT THERE YET.

[Prince Namor]

On 7/20/2022 at 4:49 PM, sfcityduck said:

Lois Lane had its own title before Challengers, based on a tryout of only two issues instead of four.  What's this prove about the birth of the Silver Age?  Nothing.

Because Lois Lane was just another Superman title like Superboy and Jimmy Olson, and Challengers was just another genre title.

Thanks for making my point. 

The Challengers of the Unknown was SO WELL RECEIVED, that even a Superman related title like Lois Lane (the best selling family of books) would gets its own book only a MONTH before it. That's how well received the Challengers were. Amazing what Kirby had accomplished. 

On 7/20/2022 at 4:49 PM, sfcityduck said:

But Flash was the first successful revival of a golden age DC superhero. Flash led to Green Lantern, etc. Challengers weren't an inspiration for DC superhero revivals for the simple reason that Challengers weren't a DC superhero book. They were just another genre book like My Greatest Adventure, Strange Adventures, Mystery in Space, Tales of the Unexpected, etc.  The first no. 1 after Challengers 1 was Charlie Chan.

Flash didn't inspire the Fantastic Four #1 though. 

Challengers of the Unknown did. 

[sfcityduck]

On 7/20/2022 at 3:45 PM, Prince Namor said:

Thanks for making my point. 

The Challengers of the Unknown was SO WELL RECEIVED, that even a Superman related title like Lois Lane (the best selling family of books) would gets its own book only a MONTH before it. That's how well received the Challengers were. Amazing what Kirby had accomplished. 

Flash didn't inspire the Fantastic Four #1 though. 

Challengers of the Unknown did. 

Who knows why Challengers got their own book? In the same time period DC put out Charlie Chan and House of Secrets - neither of which had a try out. So I'm not sure at all that Challengers got its own title (after a four issue tryout instead of Lois Lane's two issue tryout) because of Kirby. Could have been the writing. Who knows.

Flash did not inspire the plot, art, or scripting of FF 1. But it did indirectly inspire Marvel to do a superhero revival. And that's what mattered and why we view Showcase 4 as the beginning of the Silver Age.

Challengers didn't inspire Marvel to put out FF 1 either. It wasn't a superhero book. Kirby had an art style, if Ditko had done FF 1 it would have looked different. However, because Kirby worked on both books, it seems certain that he swiped Challengers issue 3's plot device of Rocky gaining fire, ice, giant man, and invisibility powers by being exposed to cosmic rays in space during an experimental rocket flight to use for the FF origin (just the flame and invisibility). But that swipe is not something to boast about, especially since that issue was scripted by the Wood brothers (who also scripted Sky Masters). 

[shadroch]

Challengers was, at the least, co-created by Joe Simon and was written by Dave Wood or with his brother, so I'm not seeing why anyone would credit Kirby with the idea.  I've read the Challengers stories and while they certainly look similar, they don't read the same at all. As a kid, I greatly preferred the Sea Devils to the Challengers and as an adult, I haven't changed.

[Prince Namor]

On 7/20/2022 at 7:28 PM, sfcityduck said:

Who knows why Challengers got their own book? In the same time period DC put out Charlie Chan and House of Secrets - neither of which had a try out. So I'm not sure at all that Challengers got its own title (after a four issue tryout instead of Lois Lane's two issue tryout) because of Kirby. Could have been the writing. Who knows.

Let’s see: Showcase was designed to try out stories to see if they did well enough to get their own book. 
 

Challengers did. Quicker than Flash by 10 months. 
 

Mystery solved. 

On 7/20/2022 at 7:28 PM, sfcityduck said:

Flash did not inspire the plot, art, or scripting of FF 1. But it did indirectly inspire Marvel to do a superhero revival. And that's what mattered and why we view Showcase 4 as the beginning of the Silver Age.

It did?

You mean Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman - the BEST selling books at DC Comics, completely flew over their radar and they had to wait until a mediocre selling Flash comic showed up?

That doesn’t make sense to me. Regardless of what people say. 

On 7/20/2022 at 7:28 PM, sfcityduck said:

Challengers didn't inspire Marvel to put out FF 1 either.

Lol. Yes it did. 

On 7/20/2022 at 7:28 PM, sfcityduck said:

It wasn't a superhero book. Kirby had an art style, if Ditko had done FF 1 it would have looked different.

It was Kirby’s idea, so it wouldn’t have existed without him. 

On 7/20/2022 at 7:28 PM, sfcityduck said:

However, because Kirby worked on both books, it seems certain that he swiped Challengers issue 3's plot device of Rocky gaining fire, ice, giant man, and invisibility powers by being exposed to cosmic rays in space during an experimental rocket flight to use for the FF origin (just the flame and invisibility). But that swipe is not something to boast about, especially since that issue was scripted by the Wood brothers (who also scripted Sky Masters). 

Now you’re just trolling. But that’s expected. 

[Prince Namor]

On 7/20/2022 at 8:16 PM, shadroch said:

Challengers was, at the least, co-created by Joe Simon and was written by Dave Wood or with his brother, so I'm not seeing why anyone would credit Kirby with the idea. 

Yeah it’s funny how Kirby’s work reads the same regardless of who’s writing it or taking credit for it. 
 

What was Joe Simon’s big accomplishment without Kirby? Jack had plenty without HIM. 
 

What was Wood’s big accomplishment without Kirby? Jack had plenty without HIM. 
 

Jack was successful regardless of who he worked with. Or without. 
 

With so many examples, it just becomes common sense. 

[AJD]

On 7/21/2022 at 1:42 AM, sfcityduck said:

Aside from the copyright violations (hint: Yellow Claw, Challengers, Fighting American, Atlas books etc. are all available in archive formats), this thread is little more than inaccurate propaganda aimed at the single-minded goal of glorifying Kirby to a degree that puts even Stan Lee's over the top hype to shame. I really hope that no one views the "history" being told here seriously. It is far from fair or balanced.

The OP has buried his head in the sand using the "ignore" button to ensure he does not have to glimpse posts which raise facts contrary to his views. That in itself speaks volumes.

Gosh, I'm so glad I have you around to protect me from deficiencies in my critical reading skills.

[sfcityduck]

On 7/20/2022 at 6:30 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

It did?

You mean Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman - the BEST selling books at DC Comics, completely flew over their radar and they had to wait until a mediocre selling Flash comic showed up?

That doesn’t make sense to me. Regardless of what people say. 

 

Superman and Batman were always successful (not Wonder Woman who was down to one title) and they were considered sui generis. The only hero who could compete was Captain Marvel (who DC sued out of existence). All superhero revivals of the 1950s failed.  Until Flash. And that's why Flash led to other revivals at DC and later Marvel. This is not a hard concept.

[sfcityduck]

On 7/20/2022 at 6:30 PM, Prince Namor said:

Now you’re just trolling. But that’s expected. 

Trolling? No. Don't you know who the Wood brothers were?

[Prince Namor]

On 7/20/2022 at 10:18 PM, AJD said:

Gosh, I'm so glad I have you around to protect me from deficiencies in my critical reading skills.

Yeah it’s some silly stuff isn’t it?
 

To think ANYONE could possibly conceive of a way to outdo Stan Lee’s overhyped exaggeration of his talents is insane. 

[sfcityduck]

On 7/20/2022 at 6:40 PM, Prince Namor said:

Yeah it’s funny how Kirby’s work reads the same regardless of who’s writing it or taking credit for it. 
 

What was Joe Simon’s big accomplishment without Kirby? Jack had plenty without HIM. 
 

What was Wood’s big accomplishment without Kirby? Jack had plenty without HIM. 
 

Jack was successful regardless of who he worked with. Or without. 
 

With so many examples, it just becomes common sense. 

Kirby's work with Stan Lee reads completely differently than his work with Joe Simon or his attempts to write on his own later in his career. 

I get that you believe FF 1 is a self-plagiarism of Challengers 3, and it probably is in part. But that book had writers and the methods used varied from Stan's.

[sfcityduck]

On 7/20/2022 at 7:37 PM, Prince Namor said:

Yeah it’s some silly stuff isn’t it?

If it were silly, you could probably come up with some facts and substance to rebut it.

[Prince Namor]

On 7/20/2022 at 10:35 PM, sfcityduck said:

Superman and Batman were always successful (not Wonder Woman who was down to one title) and they were considered sui generis. The only hero who could compete was Captain Marvel (who DC sued out of existence). All superhero revivals of the 1950s failed.  Until Flash. And that's why Flash led to other revivals at DC and later Marvel. This is not a hard concept.

In hindsight I don’t think it’s a shock that a company that was selling multiple Superman titles a month, multiple Batman appearances a month and a Wonder Woman comic - on top of successfully expanding their ‘weird tales’ titles, their romance titles and their humor titles would have any problem getting at least a decent response to a new superhero tittle. 
 

And that’s what they got. A decent response. 
 

I know things worked slower back then, but when Marvel finally responded themselves to this great disturbance in the marketplace FIVE YEARS LATER, the Flash comic was doing ok numbers. Decent. Green Lantern even less. 
 

That was NOT what motivated Goodman to try again. For Stan’s sake it’s the best story to tell. If he starts mentioning Kirby constantly pushing for it, the success he’d had with Challengers of the Unknown and the General quality of work he’d done over the last 20 years, it wouldn’t reflect as well on Stanley - and he couldn’t have that. 

[Prince Namor]

On 7/20/2022 at 10:40 PM, sfcityduck said:

If it were silly, you could probably come up with some facts and substance to rebut it.

The facts are in the WORK done by the creators. Try as you might to tear it down - compared to the hack work Stanley was doing in his dumb blonde comics, you don’t stand a chance. 

[sfcityduck]

On 7/20/2022 at 6:40 PM, Prince Namor said:

What was Wood’s big accomplishment without Kirby? Jack had plenty without HIM. 

Not "HIM" or even Wally. It was the Wood brothers, (short for Richard) and Dave. Dave's first work on Big Town 1 and Danger Trail in 1950 was pretty awesome. He also worked on Rex the WD 1, Our Army at War 1, and a lot of genre work SF / adventure ./ war / Wester (including Tomahawk). DC must have trusted him, and that's an endorsement of his quality. (Short for Richard) had been working in comics since the 1940s for Lev Gleason (Silver Streak, Daredevil, Boy, Crime Does Not Pay), Hillman (Airboy), Quality (Blackhawk, Doll Man, Plastic Man), DC (Action, House of Mystery, World's Finest) and Gold Key (Star Trek, Dr. Solar). Kirby must have liked their work because he hired them to write Sky Masters of the Space Force around the same time he was working with them on Challengers. I get you think everyone is a hack but Kirby, but the reality is that Kirby worked with a lot of good writers.

Edited July 21, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 7/20/2022 at 7:58 PM, Prince Namor said:

The facts are in the WORK done by the creators. Try as you might to tear it down - compared to the hack work Stanley was doing in his dumb blonde comics, you don’t stand a chance. 

Neither I nor anyone else is going to argue that Stan was doing more interesting work in the 1950s than Kirby. Instead, we argue the opposite: Stan was bored and burned out by the work he was doing. He was ready to give up. And so when he got the opportunity to do superhero work, he basically said "F it" I'm going to write dialogue that I think is fun and interesting. He mashed up genres. He blazed a new trail in the dialogue and interactions. Sure he had the advantage of working with great pencillers, but he was a great scripter. And nothing about the origins or plots of Marvel comics was original or profound. What made Marvel vibrant was the combination of energetic art with an energetic and fresh writing style. Nothing Kirby did prior to Marvel has really stood the test of time. Marvel does. There's a good reason for that. It's called synergy.

Edited July 21, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 7/20/2022 at 7:57 PM, Prince Namor said:

I know things worked slower back then, but when Marvel finally responded themselves to this great disturbance in the marketplace FIVE YEARS LATER, the Flash comic was doing ok numbers. Decent. Green Lantern even less. 
 

That was NOT what motivated Goodman to try again. For Stan’s sake it’s the best story to tell. If he starts mentioning Kirby constantly pushing for it, the success he’d had with Challengers of the Unknown and the General quality of work he’d done over the last 20 years, it wouldn’t reflect as well on Stanley - and he couldn’t have that. 

And the supporting facts for these assertions are ...?  Marvel was down to 8 monthly slots. Do you really think that Goodman wasn't making the decisions? 

[Prince Namor]

On 7/20/2022 at 11:16 PM, sfcityduck said:

Not "HIM" or even Wally. It was the Wood brothers, and Dave. Dave's first work on Big Town 1 and Danger Trail in 1950 was pretty awesome. He also worked on Rex the WD 1, Our Army at War 1, and a lot of genre work SF / adventure ./ war / Wester (including Tomahawk). DC must have trusted him, and that's an endorsement of his quality.  had been working in comics since the 1940s for Lev Gleason (Silver Streak, Daredevil, Boy, Crime Does Not Pay), Hillman (Airboy), Quality (Blackhawk, Doll Man, Plastic Man), DC (Action, House of Mystery, World's Finest) and Gold Key (Star Trek, Dr. Solar). Kirby must have liked their work because he hired them to write Sky Masters of the Space Force around the same time he was working with them on Challengers. I get you think everyone is a hack but Kirby, but the reality is that Kirby worked with a lot of good writers.

I’m familiar with the Wood brothers. 
I never said they were hacks. I never specifically said Dave was a hack. But they did not achieve the success of Jack Kirby in the History of Comics. 
 

Plain and simple as that. 

None of your examples were enough to get him in the Hall of Fame or even his own Wikipedia page. You are grasping at straws. 

You’re equating the success of the Challengers of the Unknown with Dave’s writing. Despite him never having written anything that achieved the level of success that Kirby had. 
 

That makes no sense. 
 

Hugely successful artist for 20 years in the business and a decent writer and the book doing well is because of the writer? Makes no sense. You’re trolling. 
 

Jack’s work reads the same regardless of who is writing him.

Make all the excuses you want. His quality and body of work is too extensive. 
 

When most of what you and others believe was written, we didn’t have newsstand releases dates and comics.org and the ability to research and read the actual work (close to 100% of that work) those creators did in their career. 
 

I was always told Jack’s mid to late 50’s work was sporadic and subpar, but I’ve found it to actually be superior to most anything he did prior to it and better than most of what he did pre-hero at Marvel. To me, Fighting American is far superior to any superhero title in the 50’s in both story and art. Challengers of the Unknown is a great read. His horror and fantasy and sci-fi work is outstanding. 
 

I’m glad I’m getting a chance to read some of this and make it available for others. And there’s even MORE great stuff to come. 
 

Glad you’re enjoying it!

[Prince Namor]

On 7/20/2022 at 11:21 PM, sfcityduck said:

Neither I nor anyone else is going to argue that Stan was doing more interesting work in the 1950s than Kirby. Instead, we argue the opposite: Stan was bored and burned out by the work he was doing. He was ready to give up.

Instead he put out hack work. Very professional. 

On 7/20/2022 at 11:21 PM, sfcityduck said:

And so when he got the opportunity to do superhero work, he basically said "F it" I'm going to write dialogue that I think is fun and interesting. He mashed up genres. He blazed a new trail in the dialogue and interactions.

He wrote the same dialogue he’d been writing in Millie the Model. It wasn’t ground breaking. BUT it hadn’t been done with a creative artist on par with Kirby or Ditko or in Superhero’s. 
Then again, Kirby’s characters bickered with each other in Challengers of the Unknown AND even more so in Race for the Moon though. 

On 7/20/2022 at 11:21 PM, sfcityduck said:

Sure he had the advantage of working with great pencillers, but he was a great scripter.

He didn’t write scripts. 

On 7/20/2022 at 11:21 PM, sfcityduck said:

And nothing about the origins or plots of Marvel comics was original or profound. What made Marvel vibrant was the combination of energetic art with an energetic and fresh writing style.

I thought it was Stan’s dialogue too? You mean Kirby’s energetic art and fresh writing style and Lee’s zippy dialogue. 

On 7/20/2022 at 11:21 PM, sfcityduck said:

Nothing Kirby did prior to Marvel has really stood the test of time. Marvel does. There's a good reason for that. It's called synergy.

That’s just silly. 

And Wrong. 
Showcase #6 has been reprinted 6 times since it came out, including 5 times in the last 18 years and as recently as 2017. 
 

It has stood the test of time because of its importance in the history of comics. Up until 1992 it had been hidden from fans, but over time has achieved a level of respect that is changing the old thinking of how comics evolved. 
 

That’s what happens when new evidence is presented to more and more people. 

[bronze_rules]

I don't really have a bone to pick here, but I do wonder if all the writing was Kirby's, how come none of his later DC work had the same quality? It could be because he was older, or maybe it was missing Stan. I tend to think of Stan's genius as turning comics into long continuous soap operas with cliffhanger endings. Whereas non marvel stuff was mostly one or two shot issues, without much character arcs or buildups. Kirby was an innovative creative genius - no doubt, and that does clearly show in his later DC work, but I think he doesn't shine as much in the long character driven soap opera elements like Stan did.

Edited July 21, 2022 by bronze_rules