Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1950's. (1957) Jack Kirby's Marvel Age has already begun! 2 2

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1957

Jack Kirby also did the cover, penciled and inked a story for Tales of the Unexpected #13 (Ruben Moreira cover).... story by Ed Herron.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1957

Steve Ditko was busy at Charlton, here doing a war story for Fighting' Army #20... he signs it as Rebel....? (Dick Giordano cover?)(Joe Gill story?)

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1957

Steve Ditko also does two stories for Strange Suspense Stories #32, the first written by Jack Oleck.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1957

Steve Ditko's second story for Strange Suspense Stories #32, is also written by Jack Oleck. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1957

Steve Ditko also does the cover and a story for Tales of the Mysterious Traveler #3 (Joe Gill story?)

[Prince Namor]

You may notice that Ditko has already left Atlas. BEFORE the implosion. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1957

Steve Ditko also does the cover and two stories for Unusual Tales #7, both likely written by Joe Gill. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1957

Steve Ditko's second story for Unusual Tales #7

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1957

Also out in March is Showcase #8 and the 2nd appearance of the NEW Flash. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1957

According to some, Superman #113 features the first full length story in a superhero comic. Kirby of course has already done this with Challengers of the Unknown, but for some reason, I guess they don't consider them superheroes. (They ARE. They do superheroic things and wear a special outfit). But whatever. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1957

John Romita would do his last story for a while with Marvel, in Western Kid #17 (actually on sale the following month). He'd actually turn in started work for the following month (book due to come out in May), so the firings probably started taking place around mid-February. Romita wouldn't be back until 1965.

ROMITA: Timely used to do 3-to-5-page fillers in the westerns, too. I think Stan's system was to get a lot of stuff in inventory, so he could juggle. If they sold extra ad pages, he could use a 3-pager instead of a 4-pager. I think what Stan had up his sleeve was, if the full books didn't last, he could use any inventory he had in an anthology book.
Around 1957 was when Stan and I were at our lowest ebb in our relationship. In the last year, he cut my rate every time I turned in a story. He was not even talking to me then. He was embarrassed, because he had given me raises for two years every time I went in, and then he took it all away. I went from $44 a page to $24 a page in a year.

ROMITA: Virginia kept saying, "Well, how long are you going to take the cuts until you go somewhere else?" And I told her, "I'll hang on, I'll hang on." Then, when it came time that he ran out of money and had to shut down, or cut down to the bone, I had done two or three days' work, ruling up the pages, lettering the balloons, and blocking in the figures on a story - and here comes a call from his assistant - she had beautiful bangs, beautiful brown hair, I forget her name but she was adorable - and she says, "John, I have to tell you that Stan says to stop work on the western book because we're going to cut down on a lot of titles."
I said to her, "Well, I spent three days on it. I'd like to get $100 for the work, to tide me over." She said, "Okay, I'll mention it to Stan." I never heard another word about the money, and I told Virginia, "If Stan Lee ever calls, tell him to go to hell." [laughs] And that was the last work I did for him until 1965."

Alter Ego Vol. 3 #9

[sfcityduck]

On 7/21/2022 at 11:19 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

Uh... we DO. Curt Swan - Hall of fame. Jerry Robinson - Hall of Fame. Bob Kane - Hall of Fame. CC Beck - Hall of Fame. 

Guess who the first three creators inducted were? Will Eisner, Carl Barks and.... Jack Kirby.

 

The criteria for the HoF is different than what I am talking about - the greatest artists of the Golden Age.

For one, a lot of guys get into the HoF primarily, if not exclusively, based on their Silver Age output.  

For another, the HoF is really about "fame," not quality. Bob Kane gets in for his partial contribution towards Batman. Not many folks rate him a top 10 GA artist, which is the bar we have been discussing.

Here are five artists I rate higher than Kirby based exclusively on the quality of their GA work:

* Alex Schomburg (Timely's best cover artist bar none, and an innovative cover artist throughout his career for many companies)

* Bernie Krigstein (his visual innovations took comics to a height rarely achieved):

* Bill Everett (great at covers and interiors - he started strong in the 1930s and by the 1950s he was untouchable):

* Harvey Kurtzman (the best at war - despite like Kirby having a cartoony style - and humor!):

* Matt Baker (the best at Romance):

And if you don't think those guys are good enough, there are plenty of others waiting to come to bat. Profoundly talented illustrators (Frazetta, Williamson, Raboy, etc.), storytellers (Eisner, Toth, Jack Cole, etc.), cover artists (L.B. Cole, Wood, etc.), and, of course, writer-artists (Barks, etc.). When it comes to quality, I don't think Kirby stands above them in the GA. SA, yes, he was the King. GA he was not.

[Zonker]

On 7/21/2022 at 3:01 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

I don't doubt that at all. That's what Editors are supposed to do though. 

See I just can't agree. Editors and agents do that, they don't get a byline. Writers write. 

He was used to OTHERS doing the actual writing.

I just don't think he was a writer of any substance and without someone to WRITE for him, he was average at best. 

 

See, I think that over-states the case against Stan Lee.  While they were alive, both Stan and Jack exaggerated their contributions.  Understandable, if not admirable, given the potential dollars involved. 

When Jack said he wrote everything he drew, he was using hyperbole, because first of all, we know he worked from a full -script for at least some of his latter DC work (e.g. the final few issues of Kamandi that he drew, much of the Super Powers toy tie-in miniseries). And moreover, to call what he did "writing" for Stan Lee requires a sophisticated understanding of comic book storytelling.  Yes, given that understanding, Jack was "writing" using his visual storytelling vocabulary to get his ideas down on the penciled page.  And he included dialogue suggestions for talking-head panels or other points which may have required some explanation not conveyed by the artwork itself.  

But when Stan decided which words in which order to put into the speech balloons & captions, I think that fits most ordinary people's definition of "writing."

 

[Zonker]

On 7/21/2022 at 3:01 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

Ooooohhhh... you chose the right example. It's Welles of course. Movies are a visual art. Different directors can present the same story in as many different ways. However, when a studio says, "You have to put one of the investors nephews in the movie" or "You can't use the 'f' word", that doesn't necessarily give them writing credit. Editorial direction can come from a LOT of different directions and reasons... experience, censorship concerns, ego, assembly line mentality, etc....

 

It's more complicated than that. In the Citizen Kane analogy, Mankiewicz isn't some studio flack giving the director notes, he is either the film's screenwriter, or co-screenwriter (depending on whom you ask).  Welles is the film's star, director and co-screenwriter or screenwriter (again depending on whom you ask).

[Prince Namor]

On 7/21/2022 at 5:48 PM, Zonker said:

See, I think that over-states the case against Stan Lee.  While they were alive, both Stan and Jack exaggerated their contributions.  Understandable, if not admirable, given the potential dollars involved. 

How did potential dollars involved effect Jack? It involved Stan. Stan used creative ownership of those characters to strong arm Marvel into a lifetime $1 million dollar a year (plus perks) contract. Jack wasn't angling for anything other than to get his art back. 

On 7/21/2022 at 5:48 PM, Zonker said:

When Jack said he wrote everything he drew, he was using hyperbole, because first of all, we know he worked from a full ---script for at least some of his latter DC work (e.g. the final few issues of Kamandi that he drew, much of the Super Powers toy tie-in miniseries). And moreover, to call what he did "writing" for Stan Lee requires a sophisticated understanding of comic book storytelling. 

Stan: "Let's have the FF battle God!" 

Jack goes and does the entire story and brings it to Stan, with dialogue and story points in the margin. They discuss it and Jack tells him what's going on in it.

Stan adds his dialogue flair to it.

Written by Stan Lee

Drawn by Jack Kirby

 

C'mon man, that's nonsense. 

On 7/21/2022 at 5:48 PM, Zonker said:

Yes, given that understanding, Jack was "writing" using his visual storytelling vocabulary to get his ideas down on the penciled page.  And he included dialogue suggestions for talking-head panels or other points which may have required some explanation not conveyed by the artwork itself.  

But when Stan decided which words in which order to put into the speech balloons & captions, I think that fits most ordinary people's definition of "writing."

Yeah, 'dialogue' writing. The story is already done. 

If I took a writing assignment to class and told the teacher, "I had someone else create the story and then I spiced up the words and changed a few minor things, but most people would agree that's writing.", they'd tell me, no, that's NOT.

I get that everyone is just supposed to agree that it's a 'special' way to do comics, but if it's so special, why doesn't anyone else do it?

Because it STEALS credit from the real writer. No artist wants that. Nobody wants that.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

On 7/21/2022 at 5:54 PM, Zonker said:

It's more complicated than that. In the Citizen Kane analogy, Mankiewicz isn't some studio flack giving the director notes, he is either the film's screenwriter, or co-screenwriter (depending on whom you ask).  Welles is the film's star, director and co-screenwriter or screenwriter (again depending on whom you ask).

In movies, the Director gets the glory because of how he visualizes the story. Martin Scorsese is a big star in the world of movies. Paul Schrader, unless you're a hard core movie buff, not so much, even though he's an exceptional writer for movies. 

In books, the writer gets the glory. Because he does all the work.

[bronze_rules]

On 7/21/2022 at 3:25 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

Stan: "Let's have the FF battle God!" 

Jack goes and does the entire story and brings it to Stan, with dialogue and story points in the margin. They discuss it and Jack tells him what's going on in it.

Stan adds his dialogue flair to it.

Written by Stan Lee

Drawn by Jack Kirby

 

C'mon man, that's nonsense. 

Yeah, 'dialogue' writing. The story is already done. 

 

I think you are over trivializing Stan's contribution. Here's a copy of a two-page ----script (before penciling in the margins, or anything is nailed down) written by Stan all the way back to FF1. It is a lot more than Stan saying let's just have four guys become heroes, and Jack creates the whole rest from there. In this case, it's clearly a synergistic combination, with Stan (at the very least) putting together a full structure of the story on paper.

And in defense of Stan, he argues that he had to edit/write numerous scripts and didn't have time to contribute to all of them individually, therefore, it was easier to leave it to the artists. However, he was also editing, revising and shaping the final stories. Kirby himself often complained of the story changing so much, and having to re-work it. That's Stan's footprint. Not just to Kirby, but the entire staff and the entire Marvel universe. Can't say the same for Kirby.

Again, Stan tended to hoard full credit early on, no argument there. That's just how leaders and self promotionalists usually are. Ever see Steve Jobs rave about his Engineers? I haven't. At least Stan, spoke very highly of Jack, every time he was asked, even though Jack insulted him with parodies like Funky Flash, etc..

Below. From Kirby Collector 33.

Edited July 21, 2022 by bronze_rules

[Zonker]

On 7/21/2022 at 6:25 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

If I took a writing assignment to class and told the teacher, "I had someone else create the story and then I spiced up the words and changed a few minor things, but most people would agree that's writing.", they'd tell me, no, that's NOT.

I get that everyone is just supposed to agree that it's a 'special' way to do comics, but if it's so special, why doesn't anyone else do it?

Because it STEALS credit from the real writer. No artist wants that. Nobody wants that.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. 

It's not *that* unusual or special anymore.  I remember Archie Goodwin and Walt Simonson worked "Marvel-style" when doing the Manhunter strip in Detective Comics in the 1970s.  Wolfman and Perez eventually started working this way when doing New Teen Titans.  I've read John Byrne complaining about Chris Claremont changing the meaning of what Byrne intended by putting words in the X-Men's mouths that Byrne hadn't meant to be there.  So I agree it can create problems, particularly if the artist is just being paid the same rate as if he were following the directions spelled out in a traditional full -script, when in fact he's doing much more work.  But if both parties are on board with how to divide up the credit and the compensation, it can certainly play to each creator's strengths.  

[shadroch]

On 7/21/2022 at 4:59 PM, Zonker said:

It's not *that* unusual or special anymore.  I remember Archie Goodwin and Walt Simonson worked "Marvel-style" when doing the Manhunter strip in Detective Comics in the 1970s.  Wolfman and Perez eventually started working this way when doing New Teen Titans.  I've read John Byrne complaining about Chris Claremont changing the meaning of what Byrne intended by putting words in the X-Men's mouths that Byrne hadn't meant to be there.  So I agree it can create problems, particularly if the artist is just being paid the same rate as if he were following the directions spelled out in a traditional full --script, when in fact he's doing much more work.  But if both parties are on board with how to divide up the credit and the compensation, it can certainly play to each creator's strengths.  

Do writers get a cut of the artwork?  It seems many artist get more for the sale of their artwork than they do for getting it published.  Most comics are team efforts so I'm curious if the team gets some of the art? 

[Prince Namor]

On 7/21/2022 at 7:23 PM, bronze_rules said:

I think you are over trivializing Stan's contribution. Here's a copy of a two-page -----script (before penciling in the margins, or anything is nailed down) written by Stan all the way back to FF1. It is a lot more than Stan saying let's just have four guys become heroes, and Jack creates the whole rest from there. In this case, it's clearly a synergistic combination, with Stan (at the very least) putting together a full structure of the story on paper.

And in defense of Stan, he argues that he had to edit/write numerous scripts and didn't have time to contribute to all of them individually, therefore, it was easier to leave it to the artists. However, he was also editing, revising and shaping the final stories. Kirby himself often complained of the story changing so much, and having to re-work it. That's Stan's footprint. Not just to Kirby, but the entire staff and the entire Marvel universe. Can't say the same for Kirby.

Again, Stan tended to hoard full credit early on, no argument there. That's just how leaders and self promotionalists usually are. Ever see Steve Jobs rave about his Engineers? I haven't. At least Stan, spoke very highly of Jack, every time he was asked, even though Jack insulted him with parodies like Funky Flash, etc..

Below. From Kirby Collector 33.

Even Roy Thomas, Stan’s biggest cheerleader had his doubts if that was a before the art -script, and, as most do, believe it was an after art synopsis written to help Stan dialogue the story. 
 

That’s not to say Stan didn’t contribute to the ideas in FF#1, he most likely did. But it’s highly doubtful he gave Jack a -script. That’s not really a -script anyway.