Wertham question 3 3

[gadzukes]

On 8/29/2022 at 10:08 PM, GG © ® ™---Paul said:

I'm guessing a few of us may have had books like this before but had no idea what they were and just assumed it was some random kid's scribblings.

I'm almost sure I've seen these type of markings before across the years.

Well.... someone out there knows cuz my backing board said "Wertham copy"

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

The thing about Wertham was that he was a walking paradox.

His crusade saying comic books caused juvenile delinquency was insane and yet he rightly called out racism. He savagely attacked EC and yet they were champions of anti-racism.

He was a huge egotist who basked in his own personal glory at his success in censoring comics and couldn't wait to appear on chat shows bigging himself up.

Finally and most perversely, his burning pitchfork attitude to comics ensured that at least the PCH genre not only gained in popularity post censorship. but gained immortality.

Wertham was a necessary evil in hindsight, and bless 'im for it.

If he hadn't gone after the medium, I'm thinking PCH would have just burned out with overkill and completely jumped the shark, and would be largely unimportant today.

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 8/30/2022 at 3:17 AM, gadzukes said:

Well.... someone out there knows cuz my backing board said "Wertham copy"

Exactly. Somebody knew, but I'm sure that's the exception. I'm guessing there are scores of these books out there that have forever gone under the radar. 

[gadzukes]

On 8/29/2022 at 10:19 PM, GG © ® ™---Paul said:

The thing about Wertham was that he was a walking paradox.

His crusade saying comic books caused juvenile delinquency was insane and yet he rightly called out racism. He savagely attacked EC and yet they were champions of anti-racism.

He was a huge egotist who basked in his own personal glory at his success in censoring comics and couldn't wait to appear on chat shows bigging himself up.

Finally and most perversely, his burning pitchfork attitude to comics ensured that at least the PCH genre not only gained in popularity post censorship. but gained immortality.

Wertham was a necessary evil in hindsight, and bless 'im for it.

If he hadn't gone after the medium, I'm thinking PCH would have just burned out with overkill and completely jumped the shark, and would be largely unimportant today.

Well said!

[sfcityduck]

Provenance is everything when it comes to items like this.

[gadzukes]

On 8/30/2022 at 1:20 AM, sfcityduck said:

Provenance is everything when it comes to items like this.

Unfortunately, yes.  

Still.... interesting to think about.

[Robot Man]

This thread is just one reason that makes these boards such a great place to be. There is a lot of knowledge here. Threads here offer a back and forth discussion of topics of interest to us.

You will never get this experience in other platforms like IG, FB or Twitter. 

[ThothAmon]

On 8/29/2022 at 9:58 PM, GG © ® ™---Paul said:

t's ridiculous to claim any of this was suggestive

Gotta disagree Paul. It was purposely made to be suggestive. She didn’t draw herself. In many instances Wertham had his facts right it’s just his conclusions that were ridiculous. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by ThothAmon

[sfcityduck]

On 8/29/2022 at 7:19 PM, GG © ® ™---Paul said:

The thing about Wertham was that he was a walking paradox.

His crusade saying comic books caused juvenile delinquency was insane and yet he rightly called out racism. He savagely attacked EC and yet they were champions of anti-racism.

He was a huge egotist who basked in his own personal glory at his success in censoring comics and couldn't wait to appear on chat shows bigging himself up.

Finally and most perversely, his burning pitchfork attitude to comics ensured that at least the PCH genre not only gained in popularity post censorship. but gained immortality.

Wertham was a necessary evil in hindsight, and bless 'im for it.

If he hadn't gone after the medium, I'm thinking PCH would have just burned out with overkill and completely jumped the shark, and would be largely unimportant today.

Wertham denied he favored censorship.  I don't think he ever advocated book burning.  He didn't even like the CCA, which he thought was ineffective. 

I do think he sought attention. His whole career was about staying in the public eye.  He got some publicity early and then didn't hesitate to chase it by authoring articles and books.

His case was flimsy as a reed.  Young Wigransky destroyed him so badly in their debate in the pages of the Saturday Review that Wertham not once, as far I know, ever made any reference to Wigransky or his article or argument - despite that comic publishers were reprinting parts of it in in their anti-Wertham editorials, such as that in the Timely books.  I think Wertham knew his case was an overclaim, but I also think he thought the bad apple cases he saw at his clinic warranted his puffery and fear mongering (and the publicity was good). Later in life he tried to make amends with comic collectors, the only people who then viewed him as a celebrity - which probably says something about Wertham's desire to be in the limelight.

Unfortunately, the comic publishing business was not as good at rebutting Wertham as Wigransky.  Gaines probably gave one of the poorest performances in the history of legislative hearings in trying to defend EC comics.  He tried to argue that intentionally over the top and tasteless comics were tasteful, instead of arguing that tasteless comics were harmless entertainment. It was a bad choice and despite the reputation he has in the comic collecting community as a defender of comics, he deserves blame for the weak position that comic publishers felt they were in and that led to the CCA (which Gaines also helped to create).

I do give Wertham credit for giving the superhero revival a push. I'm not sure it would have happened without him. Without Wertham, perhaps their never would have been a Marvel.

[Forbush-Man]

On 8/29/2022 at 8:27 AM, gadzukes said:

I think you've got something here....

This Millie page has the most notation marks at the top corner.  And they seem to correspond with the panels (one for each panel).

But.... what does a circle mean and what does a check mark mean?

O means suggestive or seductive, a V is okay (not seductive).  That's how I see it. 

OOV on left, top to bottom: first 2 panels are suggestive/seductive, last panel silhouette is okay

OVO on right, top to bottom: first panel suggestive, 2nd panel okay, 3 panel suggestive/seductive

Edited August 30, 2022 by Forbush-Man

[Forbush-Man]

He saw sex when he looked for it. 

[gadzukes]

On 8/30/2022 at 4:49 PM, Forbush-Man said:

O means suggestive or seductive, a V is okay (not seductive).  That's how I see it. 

OK, but how about this one?  Since the page is one the left side, the notations are in the upper left.  There are 3 panels and 3 notations.

To me the most suggestive panel is the lower right, but the notation is a check or "V" as you say.

[Forbush-Man]

On 8/30/2022 at 2:02 PM, gadzukes said:

OK, but how about this one?  Since the page is one the left side, the notations are in the upper left.  There are 3 panels and 3 notations.

To me the most suggestive panel is the lower right, but the notation is a check or "V" as you say.

Top one the check (V) the bottom 2 are O's?  Check your pages and see what the pattern is. V = checkmark

Edited August 30, 2022 by Forbush-Man

[Forbush-Man]

Here my thinking. He's using a O or a checkmark, they correlate with the number of panels. We know he's looking for seduction, 'cause he's Wertham, so then one has to be code for bad, the other for good (chekmark is the logical choice). Just what I'm thinking.

I'm not a Wertham expert, maybe contacting one would be interesting...

Edited August 30, 2022 by Forbush-Man

[Forbush-Man]

On 8/30/2022 at 1:58 PM, Forbush-Man said:

He saw sex when he looked for it. 

http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/seduction-of-the-innocent-3.png

"The man’s shoulder seems to resemble a woman’s pubic area.  Hmmmmm…. I have to admit, it does look like it, but I doubt I would’ve picked up on it had Wertham not pointed it out.  It makes you wonder what kind of dirty mind this Wertham guy had if he’s seeing naked chicks everywhere he looks."

[50YrsCollctngCmcs]

On 8/29/2022 at 9:12 AM, gadzukes said:

 

You guys got it all wrong; anyone can see this is a serious game of 3D Tic Tac Toe spread across that book!