Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1962) Jack Kirby creates the Marvel Universe! 4 4

[Prince Namor]

On 1/15/2023 at 1:33 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Sounds about right to me, though I suggest a slightly different timeframe. I suspect the line started to slip over the winter of 1961-62 (the price increase to 12 cents happened in late 1961). At that stage, FF was still bimonthly, and Hulk #1 was in production. The blitz of characters that eventually saved the company started in the spring, with Thor, the retooled Ant-Man, the (possibly earlier, but shelved until '62) Human Torch series, and Spider-man (the original art on the splash says "Apr. '62"). Sales must have been good on most or all of these new series, so Stan went ahead with an Iron Man feature in TTA and putting Spider-man into his own book at the end of 1962. 

Without a doubt.

He saw Goodman's yearly month off coming again, when he pondered shutting it all down (he'd done it for the last three years), and with the numbers again starting to go down, he set Kirby loose and scrambled to add books that WEREN'T dumb blonde titles or westerns (or even yet again another monster book) in the hopes that it would pick up the numbers.

It did... though the real battle for the soul of Marvel was getting ready to be waged...

[Prince Namor]

On 1/15/2023 at 12:16 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1962

Journey Into Mystery #83 - it's another example of Lee taking someone else's old ----script and having a current artist 'rework' the story, and then Lee signing HIS name as the writer. 

This issue of Journey Into Mystery clearly defines many things - Kirby creating, again without the assistance of Lee (thus no signature - at this point do you REALLY believe Stan would allow something like this Thor story to go to print without HIS signature if he had anything to do with it?), and yet make sure he signed THIS silly story by Ditko? THEN to have the story held up as an example of his ----script swiping?

Maybe that's why Journey Into Mystery #83 and Tales to Astonish #35 have never been reprinted in their entirety - unlike FF #1, AF #15 (which has back up features by Lee), Hulk #1, etc.... because Lee COULDN'T sign what was clearly Kirby's WRITTEN (and penciled) work.

As he later tried taking credit for it - over the years it was brought to his attention that he didn't sign it - it wasn't until Roy Thomas began running his phoney stories about Larry Lieber 'scripting' these books... 

Think about it... no mention that Lee plotted and Larry scripted until the mid to late 90's???

And what set off this chain of events?

 

Full disclosure - I am copying and pasting SOME of someone else's research that chooses not to be named:

1984 - Will Murray writes a story in Comics Collector #3 (Spring 1984) crediting Kirby with the monster stories in the pre-hero Marvel books. No mention of Larry Lieber at all. Kirby is still alive at the time.

--------------------------

February 6, 1994 - Jack Kirby passes away.

--------------------------

Fall of 1995 - Comics Scene #52, September 1995 - Will Murray does an about face and credits Larry Lieber with the monster stories!!! (He would even update his earlier Comics Collector #3 article years later in TJKC #77, by adding the Lieber BS and un-crediting Kirby as the creator!)

--------------------------

December 27, 1996 - Marvel files for bankruptcy.

--------------------------

Early 1998 Isaac Perlmutter terminates Marvel's $1 million-a-year lifetime-employment contract with Stan Lee.

--------------------------

May 1998 "A Conversation between Stan Lee and Roy Thomas" is recorded which is later published in COMIC BOOK ARTIST #2 (Summer 1998). In an article by Roy Thomas the same issue (flip side ALTER-EGO V. 2 #2. ) publishes what is claimed to Lee's original typed synopsis for FANTASTIC FOUR #1. There is no mention of Larry Lieber writing the "monster books." Thomas speaks as if Lee wrote them all and proposes that Lee must have been using the Marvel Method earlier than FF #1. Roy sleepwalks Stan right through it.

Stan: You know something, Roy? Now that you say it, that’s probably true; but I had never thought of that. I thought that I started it with the Fantastic Four, but you’re probably right.

--------------------------

(BARRON'S) November 1998 -- a month after assigning his intellectual property to Stan Lee Media -- Lee had gone to Marvel claiming half-ownership of Spider-Man, the X-Men and other characters, since Marvel had cancelled his previous rights assignment in its bankruptcy. Lee gets a new contract for up to $1 million in annual salary and 10% of movie and TV profits, assigning Marvel his rights in those characters.

--------------------------

Oct. 13 1999. ALTER-EGO Vol. 3 #2 publishes "A Conversation with Artist-Writer Larry Lieber"

Conducted & Edited by Roy Thomas of course. He lays out in great detail the myth of Larry the writer for Kirby.

LIEBER: Wait a minute—I did do some comics then. I did some romance comics. I was penciling them. And there was a point where I did writing, because I remember Stan saying to me, “You write romances really well,” so I must have written some. In 1958 Stan said he wanted somebody to help him write, and he had nobody then; he was doing it all himself.

(Note: In 1958, Marvel was publishing 8 titles a month)

--------------------------

Guess when Roy Thomas gets a job ghost writing the Amazing Spider-man Newspaper strip for the next 20 years? Yep, right after he helps Stan Lee get his Million Dollar a year contract by showing that HE can manipulate the story of how comics are created.

And this is the guy we should believe regarding the history of Stan Lee???

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 1/14/2023 at 9:18 PM, Prince Namor said:

The Editor, and at the time Stan was the only editor for 10 books a month, is the last line of defense. He signs off on it. Once he does, it's his error. He's the final say.
 

It's as simple as that.  

Didn't say they weren't Stan's mistakes.  He should've had somebody proofreading, but there's no evidence of anyone doing that reliably.

I was responding to the contradictions that got embraced here, first saying the letterer fixed his mistakes, then that he didn't.  It just feels like a pattern that all statements herein are deemed true if they reflect badly on Stan, even if the slams contradict each other.  Feels as if the contradictions don't matter because it's all working backward from the goal to malign Stan.  Kirby was in that mode for a while, making such wild contradictions that even his most ardent fans feel the need to address them, but always with the caveat that his contradictions and falsehoods don't matter if they serve the Greater Truth that Stan was .  Ditko's statements that Stan wrote it and gave him a revised five page outline are glossed over or ignored because they aren't convenient to the narrative that Stan did nothing.  I won't go on because I cannot spare the time to go back and forth re-reading this thread, cutting and pasting, etc, and there is no way I am willing to take the time to match and respond to every post.  I know will you outlast me in that regard,.       

[Prince Namor]

On 1/15/2023 at 1:58 PM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

Didn't say they weren't Stan's mistakes.  He should've had somebody proofreading, but there's no evidence of anyone doing that reliably.

I was responding to the contradictions that got embraced here, first saying the letterer fixed his mistakes, then that he didn't.

I think the comment regarding Artie Simek was done in jest and not as an indication that a letterer would actually correct a writers mistake. 

On 1/15/2023 at 1:58 PM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

It just feels like a pattern that all statements herein are deemed true if they reflect badly on Stan, even if the slams contradict each other.  Feels as if the contradictions don't matter because it's all working backward from the goal to malign Stan. 

You'll have to provide an example, because the one you're using isn't really one. Simek isn't an editor. 

On 1/15/2023 at 1:58 PM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

Kirby was in that mode for a while, making such wild contradictions that even his most ardent fans feel the need to address them, but always with the caveat that his contradictions and falsehoods don't matter if they serve the Greater Truth that Stan was . 

Again, what wild contradictions are you talking about? You're making a generalization that I don't agree with. 

Maybe that he created Spider-man? That ONE?

In Kirby's view he brought the idea of A spider-man to Stan Lee. From Stan Lee's view that should be enough to count as a 'creator'. And I showed where Kirby elaborated on that more clearly. He has a history with a spider-MAN type of character with Joe Simon. There's proof of its existence.

And the Interview that those who want to hold Kirby to that statement seem to overlook is:

My initial concept was practically the same. But the credit for developing Spider-Man goes to Steve Ditko; he wrote it and he drew it and he refined it. Steve Ditko is a thorough professional. And he has an intellect. Personality wise, he’s a bit withdrawn, but there are lots of people like that. But Steve Ditko, despite the fact that he doesn’t disco– although he may now; I haven’t seen him for a long time– Steve developed Spider-Man and made a salable item out of it.

There are many others who take credit for it, but Steve Ditko, it was entirely in his hands. I can tell you that Stan Lee had other duties besides writing Spider-Man or developing Spider-Man or even thinking about it.

FROM Conversations with Comic Book Creators by Leonard Pitts Jr. 1986/87

 

But please... if you have some examples of 'wild contradictions', I would love to hear them and respond. 

Most likely you won't though. because since that TCJ interview, the access to real information has accelerated and shown a lot of what Jack has said to be truthful. And Lee fans seem to be allergic to the truth. 

On 1/15/2023 at 1:58 PM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

Ditko's statements that Stan wrote it and gave him a revised five page outline are glossed over or ignored because they aren't convenient to the narrative that Stan did nothing. 

Straw man. No one is saying Stan did nothing. 

On 1/15/2023 at 1:58 PM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

I won't go on because I cannot spare the time to go back and forth re-reading this thread, cutting and pasting, etc, and there is no way I am willing to take the time to match and respond to every post.  I know will you outlast me in that regard,.       

I'm always willing to civilly discuss things with facts. Bring some facts. I'll bring mine. In fact, I've done 9 1/2 threads full of them. 

[Professor K]

I read a lot of this thread. Good stuff. Read a lot over the years as well. Jack had been creating characters with Joe Simon, hundreds maybe thousands, since 1940. Simon said "Some  were bad and some were rotten". So they created a tons that were never even published. In the late 50's I think it's pretty obvious Jack created the majority of the "Monsters". He also created Challengers of the Unknown which are basically super-heroes, timing just wasn't right. So with all that behind him plus the fact that he drew nearly every book minus the Ditkos makes it hard to believe that he didn't create almost every Marvel character from FF 1 onwards. Unless when Stan changed his look he suddenly obtained the abilty to create stories and Characters like a machine after 20 plus years in the business. I'm sure he had input and suggestions that stuck and the man could write dialogue for sure. But it's pretty certain that Jack created probably all the characters he worked on.

At the time he was happy to be making good money again and busy as heck working. 

PS Did Jack ever speak about the circumstances of Steve leaving in any interviews or clips? I never saw him speak of it. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Professor K

[Prince Namor]

On 1/15/2023 at 1:58 PM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

Ditko's statements that Stan wrote it and gave him a revised five page outline are glossed over or ignored 

Just so we don't gloss over or ignore this... if you'd actually read the thread, you'd know...

Stan took old scripts and 'reworked' them (i.e. stole).

Stan actively bought story ideas from Writers Digest. 

Jack Kirby in conversations gave away more story ideas than anyone in the business. Stan had regular conversations with Jack on story ideas and coincidentally many of Jack's ideas he'd previously used made it into Marvel stories that he didn't 'offcially' write. (Robert Berstein said that he once complained to Kirby how hard it was to write stories for Superman, and Kirby said, "If I wrote Superman..." and rattled off some ideas. He then made it a point to find out when Kirby took the train into the city to sit with him and talk about stories...)

Stan on the other hand...

“I was sitting in Charlie Biro’s office one day and the phone rang, and he said, “Hi Stan. what’s up?” Then he holds his hand over the speaker. “it’s Stan Lee. He’s asking if I have any good stories for him.” That always stuck in my mind. When I hear all these stories about what a great guy he was, I remember Charlie Biro saying, “That Stan Lee, he’s always calling me for stories. One of these days I’m going to tell him I want a cut on these things.” - Bob Fujitani Hogan’s Alley (#23)

 

So when Stan hands someone a 'revised' 5 page synopsis, it doesn't hold as much weight with me.

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

On 1/15/2023 at 2:54 PM, Professor K said:

I read a lot of this thread. Good stuff. Read a lot over the years as well. Jack had been creating characters with Joe Simon, hundreds maybe thousands, since 1940. Simon said "Some  were bad and some were rotten". So they created a tons that were never even published. In the late 50's I think it's pretty obvious Jack created the majority of the "Monsters". He also created Challengers of the Unknown which are basically super-heroes, timing just wasn't right. So with all that behind him plus the fact that he drew nearly every book minus the Ditkos makes it hard to believe that he didn't create almost every Marvel character from FF 1 onwards. Unless when Stan changed his look he suddenly obtained the abilty to create stories and Characters like a machine after 20 plus years in the business. I'm sure he had input and suggestions that stuck and the man could write dialogue for sure. But it's pretty certain that Jack created probably all the characters he worked on.

At the time he was happy to be making good money again and busy as heck working. 

Yep.

On 1/15/2023 at 2:54 PM, Professor K said:

PS Did Jack ever speak about the circumstances of Steve leaving in any interviews or clips? I never saw him speak of it. 

Yeah... I've got it somewhere... Ditko actually tried talking Kirby into leaving at the same time he did. Can you imagine? No Galactus trilogy? No Black Panther? No Negative Zone? No Silver Surfer?

Again, Kirby saved Marvel by staying... Stan was already only in the office 2-3 days a week by that point and having Houseroy run in circles for him. 

Kirby couldn't do it... he needed that steady income to provide for his family. He felt if he really showed Marvel what he could do... then surely they'd take care of him...

Nope.

[Zonker]

On 1/15/2023 at 1:50 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

--------------------------

Oct. 13 1999. ALTER-EGO Vol. 3 #2 publishes "A Conversation with Artist-Writer Larry Lieber"

Conducted & Edited by Roy Thomas of course. He lays out in great detail the myth of Larry the writer for Kirby.

LIEBER: Wait a minute—I did do some comics then. I did some romance comics. I was penciling them. And there was a point where I did writing, because I remember Stan saying to me, “You write romances really well,” so I must have written some. In 1958 Stan said he wanted somebody to help him write, and he had nobody then; he was doing it all himself.

(Note: In 1958, Marvel was publishing 8 titles a month)

--------------------------

Guess when Roy Thomas gets a job ghost writing the Amazing Spider-man Newspaper strip for the next 20 years? Yep, right after he helps Stan Lee get his Million Dollar a year contract by showing that HE can manipulate the story of how comics are created.

And this is the guy we should believe regarding the history of Stan Lee???

I understand why you discount everything Stan has had to say about the matter.  Now apparently all Roy Thomas statements are also suspect.  Are we also to ignore Larry Lieber's recollections since he was Stan's brother?  Because in the Lieber deposition you linked to in an earlier thread, he says under oath that he started writing for Marvel in 1958:

 

[Professor K]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:08 PM, Prince Namor said:

Yep.

Yeah... I've got it somewhere... Ditko actually tried talking Kirby into leaving at the same time he did. Can you imagine? No Galactus trilogy? No Black Panther? No Negative Zone? No Silver Surfer?

Again, Kirby saved Marvel by staying... Stan was already only in the office 2-3 days a week by that point and having Houseroy run in circles for him. 

Kirby couldn't do it... he needed that steady income to provide for his family. He felt if he really showed Marvel what he could do... then surely they'd take care of him...

Nope.

I figured it was likely that Steve spoke to Jack before, or at least that Jack knew everything. I don't know the details about Jacks employment at the time but it's a shame Marvel didn't take better care of him, he was literally their Golden Goose.  I know he had a terrible time getting just some of his art back from then later on. Seems they put him through a legal Hell that was probably not cheap either.

As far as ASM , Ditko, Lee, and Romita- I always wondered a few things. Like Romita doing the cover for Daredevil 16 while Steve was still there. Maybe Stan had plans on replacing Steve with John and Steve knew it so he bailed. Just seems like a coincidence it happened right after that cover. And I wonder if when John took over the title if Stan got involved with the plotting and writing much more if not nearly entirely, at least for a while. John was such a good artist and even though he said in interviews that he didn't want ASM at the time he was probably pretty aware what an opportunity it was. I doubt if Stan gave him storylines he would have said no to them. 

[Prince Namor]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:08 PM, Zonker said:

I understand why you discount everything Stan has had to say about the matter.  Now apparently all Roy Thomas statements are also suspect. 

The reasons are clear. Stan needed to be THE man to get that lifetime contract. $1 Million a year.

There are crimes committed for a lot less that that.

On 1/15/2023 at 3:08 PM, Zonker said:

Are we also to ignore Larry Lieber's recollections since he was Stan's brother?  Because in the Lieber deposition you linked to in an earlier thread, he says under oath that he started writing for Marvel in 1958:

 

Couple of things with that.

a) Stan Lee lied under oath. He said he created EVERYTHING and then simply assigned an artist. I'm mean, come on. Even most Stan Lee fans know that's a crock of shiote. So it's not a stretch to say Larry...

b) Did Larry have anything to gain? He sure had a lot to lose. He ADMITTED under oath that Stan told him that if they lost the law suit, he might not have a job doing the newspaper strip anymore!!! Marvel redacted this from the public's eyes but its in the prosecutors notes for emphasis to the judge...

c) BUT...let's give Larry the benefit of the doubt, and consider this...

The implosion happens. Stan has to fire everyone. Since he's NOT the writer that he'd later make himself out to be (Stan wrote a SMALL amount of stories each month in the prime Atlas 40+ books a month era), he has to 'rework' scripts.*** 

His bougee lifestyle isn't going to allow him to type them up himself.

So he hires his brother at a reduced rate and gives him 'plot' ideas (that he claims to Larry are his own but are actually from old scripts that were already used as well as inventory scripts they bought and hadn't used from Writers Digest). Larry takes those plots and writes scripts or synopsis. The artists - Don Heck, Paul Reinman, etc. take those and create the story, Stan has Larry work up the dialogue. Stan looks it over for any minor corrections. 

Larry is 'writing' for Stan Lee.

The idea that a novice like Larry could walk in off the street having never written a comic book story before and write FOR Jack Kirby - who'd been writing and dialoguing his own stories for 20 years - is ABSURD.

And CLEARLY exposed when Kirby walks off the Journey Into Mystery Thor stories with issue #90 and #91 and Larry is on his own.

Read that book again, Journey Into Mystery #90, and tell me that's a guy who's been scripting those Kirby monster books for 4 years.

No way.

That's a novice who got his training wheels knocked off and embarrassed himself. 

 

Proving Guilt

MEANS - Yes. Stan had established means for years in his position as publisher and used Houseroy to continue to establish that means through Alter Ego, promoting Lee as the creator of the Marvel Universe. 

MOTIVE - $1 Million a year for Stan - a guaranteed lifetime gig ghost writing the Spider-man newspaper strip for Houseroy, and a continued art gig drawing the strip for Larry. 

OPPORTUNITY - Marvel's bankruptcy, purchase, and the legal proceedings involved. 

 

 

***Even then, Dan DeCarlo took the smallest of story conferences and wrote most of those stories himself for Millie and Homer and Al Hartley the same way on the Patsy Walker books. 

 

[Prince Namor]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:32 PM, Professor K said:

I figured it was likely that Steve spoke to Jack before, or at least that Jack knew everything. I don't know the details about Jacks employment at the time but it's a shame Marvel didn't take better care of him, he was literally their Golden Goose.  I know he had a terrible time getting just some of his art back from then later on. Seems they put him through a legal Hell that was probably not cheap either.

As far as ASM , Ditko, Lee, and Romita- I always wondered a few things. Like Romita doing the cover for Daredevil 16 while Steve was still there. Maybe Stan had plans on replacing Steve with John and Steve knew it so he bailed. Just seems like a coincidence it happened right after that cover. And I wonder if when John took over the title if Stan got involved with the plotting and writing much more if not nearly entirely, at least for a while. John was such a good artist and even though he said in interviews that he didn't want ASM at the time he was probably pretty aware what an opportunity it was. I doubt if Stan gave him storylines he would have said no to them. 

This might surprise some people, but Romita is actually my favorite Marvel artist. Even though I found out he bad mouthed Ditko, though that was probably from Stan. 

He's the unsung hero of the post-Ditko Marvel, because unlike Jack who got fed up, and Ditko who just walked out, Romita took the BS and hung in there. He did ok for himself, but he's generally forgotten in the mix of things.

And nope, Stan didn't get more involved in the plotting and writing, by that time he was barely in the office. According to John...

John Romita - Comic Book Artist #6  Fall 1999

CBA: Did you actually co-plot on the Spider-Man books going

into the ’70s? There seems to be characters like the Kingpin and Black Widow who have a very strong Romita stamp.
John: The only thing he used to do from 1966-72 was come in and leave a note on my drawing table saying “Next month, the Rhino.” That’s all; he wouldn’t tell me anything; how to handle it. Then he would say “The Kingpin.” I would then take it upon myself to put some kind of distinctive look to the guy. For instance, if it’s the kingpin of crime, I don’t want him to look like another guy in a suit who in silhouette looks like every other criminal. So I made him a 400-pound monster; that was my idea. I made him bald, I put the stickpin on him, I gave him that kind of tycoon look. 

[Prince Namor]

Romita bad mouthing Ditko in a fanzine... obviously told to him by Lee since he wasn't there for most of it. 

[Zonker]

Yeah, it occurs to me what Stan was likely doing was similar to what personal computer clone companies later perfected:  the reverse engineering process:

1- Take apart the IBM PC and find out how it works.
2- Write up a specification based on what was learned in step 1.
3- Give this specification to a different engineering team to implement in a new design.  So the new design is different than the IBM PC, but functionally the same.

In Stan's case it was:

1- Take an old published story or an old inventory -script.
2- Summarize the skeleton of the story as a plot synopsis (the story's "specification").
3- Give that synopsis to a different writer and/or artist to implement into a new-ish story.

In this way, it would make sense for Stan to leave his signature off the resulting product.  It keeps his fingerprints off the story.  Not that he was necessarily afraid of being sued, but perhaps to avoid criticism from the Jerry Bails, Roy Thomas, etc. emerging fan base.  If you think about it, it is a strange morality that has been attributed to Stan: He apparently signs everything he can, and takes credit for other people's work.  But he draws the line at signing something that he didn't provide a plot or dialogue for? Maybe he didn't sign some stuff because he didn't want to be held responsible for the sausage-making!

[Professor K]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:41 PM, Prince Namor said:

This might surprise some people, but Romita is actually my favorite Marvel artist. Even though I found out he bad mouthed Ditko, though that was probably from Stan. 

He's the unsung hero of the post-Ditko Marvel, because unlike Jack who got fed up, and Ditko who just walked out, Romita took the BS and hung in there. He did ok for himself, but he's generally forgotten in the mix of things.

And nope, Stan didn't get more involved in the plotting and writing, by that time he was barely in the office. According to John...

John Romita - Comic Book Artist #6  Fall 1999

CBA: Did you actually co-plot on the Spider-Man books going

into the ’70s? There seems to be characters like the Kingpin and Black Widow who have a very strong Romita stamp.
John: The only thing he used to do from 1966-72 was come in and leave a note on my drawing table saying “Next month, the Rhino.” That’s all; he wouldn’t tell me anything; how to handle it. Then he would say “The Kingpin.” I would then take it upon myself to put some kind of distinctive look to the guy. For instance, if it’s the kingpin of crime, I don’t want him to look like another guy in a suit who in silhouette looks like every other criminal. So I made him a 400-pound monster; that was my idea. I made him bald, I put the stickpin on him, I gave him that kind of tycoon look. 

Romita is awesome. Those Romance covers? Sweet. Pretty much every one is great. Well thanks for that info. I thought, and maybe I'm wrong, but Ditko seemed like the kind of guy who was proud of his work and wouldn't really want anyone else involved with what he's doing, including and maybe especially Stan. So I thought maybe in Stans eyes he figured John would be easier to give direction to. But if what John said in that quote is true Stan really didn't have much input and gave the artists free reign. Well thanks again

[Prince Namor]

On 1/15/2023 at 4:15 PM, Professor K said:

Romita is awesome. Those Romance covers? Sweet. Pretty much every one is great. Well thanks for that info. I thought, and maybe I'm wrong, but Ditko seemed like the kind of guy who was proud of his work and wouldn't really want anyone else involved with what he's doing, including and maybe especially Stan. So I thought maybe in Stans eyes he figured John would be easier to give direction to. But if what John said in that quote is true Stan really didn't have much input and gave the artists free reign. Well thanks again

Thank you!

Stay tuned as you'll see exactly WHY Ditko grew to see Stan as unnecessary and even a hindrance to making good comics... in his own words!

[Prince Namor]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:51 PM, Zonker said:

Yeah, it occurs to me what Stan was likely doing was similar to what personal computer clone companies later perfected:  the reverse engineering process:

1- Take apart the IBM PC and find out how it works.
2- Write up a specification based on what was learned in step 1.
3- Give this specification to a different engineering team to implement in a new design.  So the new design is different than the IBM PC, but functionally the same.

In Stan's case it was:

1- Take an old published story or an old inventory --script.
2- Summarize the skeleton of the story as a plot synopsis (the story's "specification").
3- Give that synopsis to a different writer and/or artist to implement into a new-ish story.

In this way, it would make sense for Stan to leave his signature off the resulting product.  It keeps his fingerprints off the story.  Not that he was necessarily afraid of being sued, but perhaps to avoid criticism from the Jerry Bails, Roy Thomas, etc. emerging fan base.  If you think about it, it is a strange morality that has been attributed to Stan: He apparently signs everything he can, and takes credit for other people's work.  But he draws the line at signing something that he didn't provide a plot or dialogue for? Maybe he didn't sign some stuff because he didn't want to be held responsible for the sausage-making!

Eventually he lets FANDOM put his name on those stories! By making friends with Bails and... well he HIRES Roy Thomas... what better way to have the press on your side than to hire one of the modern leaders of it?

But if you look at the Grand Comics Database it's LITTERED with 'Stan Lee (plot)?' credits put there by leaders of comic FANDOM with absolutely NO proof or verification whatsoever - other than what was said mainly after Kirby died and couldn't defend himself. 

Larry Lieber has nearly 4 YEARS of 'Larry Lieber (-script)?' listings with ZERO proof other than leaders of comic FANDOM making those entries. 

I'll use an analogy of my own to describe this...

Michael Jackson was known as the 'King of Pop'. But most people don't know where that term actually came from. It came from Michael and his marketing team. They made a deal with MTV, in exchange for exclusive early showings of his newest videos, that the network would always refer to him as the 'King of Pop'. With that kind of exposure it quickly caught on....

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1962

See? I said this was a big month and we're only two books in!

Edited January 15, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1962

To say the Marvel Universe was born from the Monster stories that Jack Kirby had been doing for nearly 4 years, is again exemplified by Tales to Astonish #35, which brings back a character from a story a few issues earlier - meant as a one shot - and turns int into a superhero story.

Jack Kirby writes the story, and pencils the cover and the story (all inked by D. Ayers)... there's no signature....

Chapter ONE:

[Prince Namor]

... because Stan again white outs the 'Kirby/Ayers' signature. 

There's no Stan Lee signature - meaning Jack created this on his own without any input from Stan. 

And Stan needed to hide that. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1962

Tales to Astonish #35 - Jack Kirby writes the story, and pencils the cover and the story (all inked by D. Ayers)

Chapter TWO: