Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1962) Jack Kirby creates the Marvel Universe! 4 4

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 1/14/2023 at 12:51 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

One wonders how many of Stan's errors Artie Simek quietly corrected during the lettering process. 

You might also ask how many of Stan's errors was Artie SImek supposed to have corrected?

And the answer is --

All of Them.

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 1/14/2023 at 3:36 PM, Prince Namor said:

ANATOMY OF A STORY

 

 

 

d) Ditko took Stan's lame synopsis and actually made something great of it. 

Have you read the synopsis? 

I know Ditko said he was given a 5 page synopsis which was revised from the earlier synopsis given to Kirby.

But I never heard that the pages still exist, or that anyone else, including Ditko, has called the final synopsis "lame".

 

 

[Prince Namor]

On 1/14/2023 at 7:31 PM, Zonker said:

What are we to make of Kirby's claim in the Comics Journal Interview that he created Spider-Man, including the costume?

Groth didn't press him on it, but Jack went into more detail in other interviews of the time:

FROM Conversations with Comic Book Creators by Leonard Pitts Jr. 1986/87

KIRBY: And it suddenly struck me that the thing that hadn’t been done since the days I returned from the service was the superheroes. And so, I came up with Spider-Man. I got it from a strip called the Silver Spider. And I presented Spider-Man to Stan Lee and I presented the Hulk to Stanley. I did a story called “The Hulk”– a small feature, and it was quite different from the Hulk that we know. But I felt that the Hulk had possibilities, and I took this little character from the small feature and I transformed it into the Hulk that we know today.

KIRBY: My initial concept was practically the same. But the credit for developing Spider-Man goes to Steve Ditko; he wrote it and he drew it and he refined it. Steve Ditko is a thorough professional. And he has an intellect. Personality wise, he’s a bit withdrawn, but there are lots of people like that. But Steve Ditko, despite the fact that he doesn’t disco– although he may now; I haven’t seen him for a long time– Steve developed Spider-Man and made a salable item out of it.

KIRBY: There are many others who take credit for it, but Steve Ditko, it was entirely in his hands. I can tell you that Stan Lee had other duties besides writing Spider-Man or developing Spider-Man or even thinking about it.

 

PITTS: So, you’re saying you had the original idea and presented it to Ditko?

KIRBY: I didn’t present it to Ditko. I presented everything to Stan Lee. I drew up the costume, I gave him the character and I put it in the hands of Marvel. By giving it to Stan Lee, I put it in the hands of Marvel, because Stan Lee had contact with the publisher. I didn’t. Stan Lee gave it to Steve Ditko because I was doing everything else, until Johnny Romita came in to take up some of the slack. There were very few people up at Marvel; Artie Simek did all the lettering and production.

 

[Prince Namor]

On 1/14/2023 at 7:34 PM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

You might also ask how many of Stan's errors was Artie SImek supposed to have corrected?

And the answer is --

All of Them.

No. The Letterer's job isn't to correct grammar. That's the Editor who does that. Spider-man isn't Spiderman. The Letterer letters what is given to him. 

[Prince Namor]

On 1/14/2023 at 7:31 PM, Zonker said:

What are we to make of Kirby's claim in the Comics Journal Interview that he created Spider-Man, including the costume?

The best research done on it was by Stan Taylor and it is here:

https://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/2014/12/30/spider-man-the-case-for-kirby/

[Prince Namor]

On 1/14/2023 at 7:31 PM, Zonker said:

What are we to make of Kirby's claim in the Comics Journal Interview that he created Spider-Man, including the costume?

As far as my opinion on it, I think Ditko most likely came up with that costume.

[Zonker]

Yes, it is hard to come up with a Venn Diagram of the competing Spider-Man claims of Lee, Kirby & Ditko. Very little overlap.  I'm inclined to give more weight to Ditko, as his ego seems the least invested in the matter.  Stan's ego was his defining characteristic, and his vested interest in being Marvel's company man has been remarked upon here.  And by the 1990s Jack was making up for lost time in claiming the credit that he previously had been too busy to worry about.  During Jack's retirement he was probably egged on by Roz (in re-reading the Comics Journal interview I get the sense that Roz was even more annoyed with Stan Lee than was Jack!)

So Jack probably came up with the name and gave it to Stan, reworking ideas from the Fly and the Silver Spider.  He might even have designed a costume that he remembered as being close enough to what Steve Ditko eventually would draw, but I think this is an example of Jack's memory failing him. (I say this based on Steve's recollections.)  And if Kirby's Spider-Man was a kid who turned into an adult, maybe that is the source for Stan's dim memory that Jack's version of the character was "too heroic," as Jack's character would have been an adult, not a wiry teenager.  

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 1/14/2023 at 5:33 PM, Prince Namor said:

No. The Letterer's job isn't to correct grammar. That's the Editor who does that. Spider-man isn't Spiderman. The Letterer letters what is given to him. 

The errors that you made a concerted effort to make pictures of and include in your post were spelling errors. 

Not grammar.

It is the job of every person in the production chain to correct errors they have noticed. 

If you believe otherwise, why didn't you take issue with, or seek to correct, the other post, which opined that the letterer quietly corrected many of Stan's mistakes?

 

 

   

 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES

[Prince Namor]

On 1/14/2023 at 10:39 PM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

The errors that you made a concerted effort to make pictures of and include in your post were spelling errors. 

Not grammar.

It is the job of every person in the production chain to correct errors they have noticed. 

If you believe otherwise, why didn't you take issue with, or seek to correct, the other post, which opined that the letterer quietly corrected many of Stan's mistakes?

The Editor, and at the time Stan was the only editor for 10 books a month, is the last line of defense. He signs off on it. Once he does, it's his error. He's the final say.
 

It's as simple as that.  

[Rosland]

On 1/14/2023 at 1:59 PM, Prince Namor said:

ANATOMY OF A STORY

Amazing Fantasy #15 - Here we go! Ditko's explanation of events...

Page TWO:

Has there ever been any information about the fate of the Kirby 5 pages of art?

[Prince Namor]

On 1/15/2023 at 12:39 AM, Rosland said:

Has there ever been any information about the fate of the Kirby 5 pages of art?

No. If they weren't tossed... and let's face it - someone was smart enough to steal most everything else from that era - surely they knew these pages were valuable as well - Then someone is either sitting on them because they can't sell them yet out of fear of public scorn (i.e. Marv Wolfman, who's already suspected of pilfering large amounts of art) or someone is specifically keeping them hidden, because their existence calls into question Stan's BS legacy as a creator (ahem, Houseroy). 

As an added note, Jim Shooter (who I don't really find reliable either, but in this instance he has nothing to gain by what he reveals here) says he saw them as well:

RE:  Kirby Spider-Man pages: I saw, and held in my hand, exactly one such page. It was a page of design drawings. I remember that his version of Spider-Man had a “Web-Gun” and wore trunks, I think, like Captain America’s. He was far bigger and bulkier than Ditko’s version. There were no similarities to Ditko’s Spider-Man costume. I think he had boots with flaps. There were notes in he margin that described the character, again, nothing like the Ditko version. I think there was something about him being related to, or having some connection with a police official, which was how he’d find out about trouble going on.  It was a long time ago, I can’t swear to that last item, but I can swear to the fact that it wasn’t similar to the Ditko version. I remember thinking, “This isn’t at all like Ditko’s.”

P.S.  I must have seen that page when I was in Sol’s office and he was going through the rejects stack looking for pages for me to try inking.  I don’t think I ever got to look through those pages again.

P.P.S.  Years later, 1986, I had occasion to talk with Jack at the San Diego Con. He insisted that he created Spider-Man. I told him that I’d spoken to Steve Ditko, Sol, and other people who were there at the time, including Stan, obviously, and that they all agreed that Steve’s version was the one that was used, though Jack did his version first. I reported everything I’d seen and heard. We talked about the costume — the bib and belt combo, the stripes down the arms, the mask, the symbols, a very Ditko-esque design. Jack was having some problems with his memory by then, but he thought about it for a minute, then said that maybe Steve should get the credit. He’d be okay with that. A little later, he was onstage and clearly had forgotten our conversation. He and Roz did, however, come to Marvel’s 25th Anniversary Party that evening, which made me very happy. There’s a story about that, too, but it will wait for another time.

http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/my-short-lived-inking-career.html/

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ANATOMY OF A STORY

Amazing Fantasy #15 - Steve Ditko wrote about the topic one other time (these all occurred in the early 2000's - almost 40 years after the fact - and then, mostly, never again, especially in this much detail)... some highlights: 

[Prince Namor]

ANATOMY OF A STORY

Amazing Fantasy #15 - Here's Ditko's original cover he talks about...

[Prince Namor]

ANATOMY OF A STORY

Amazing Fantasy #15 - Bonus OA!

[Prince Namor]

ANATOMY OF A STORY

Early to mid-60's pics of Ditko

[Prince Namor]

ANATOMY OF A STORY

Early to mid-60's pics of Stan (before he transformed into his hipster persona)

[Prince Namor]

ANATOMY OF A STORY

Amazing Fantasy #15 - The way I believe it happened, based on everything assembled here since 1954.

Jack was constantly trying to get Stan to do superheroes. Goodman was not keen on it and Stan feared antagonizing his in-law/boss because business was not as good as he would've liked and the comics division was nearly shut down a few times. 

Once the FF slides through... Hulk is next because it doesn't LOOK like a superhero. 

Going into the Fall of 1962, the monster book sales start to slip - the dumb blonde books aren't doing any better and the westerns are even worse. Lee fears Goodman may really close shop in the fall this time, so he decides to go for it. He lets's Jack do Thor in JIM, and Ant-Man in TTA, plus bring in the Spider-man idea. He'll ram all three through at once. 

Jack brings him the idea for 'Spider-man' based on the ideas he'd done over the years with Joe Simon. Some of those ideas were already reworked into the Fly at Archie Comics. Ditko immediately recognizes this. Stan gives the idea for him to do so that it's different from the Fly. Ditko works from Stan's synopsis (which is actually Jack's partial story) and makes the changes we now see as AF #15. 

Having discussed story ideas with Jack, and Jack reusing his own ideas (loved one dies, because hero isn't there for him), Stan passes this along to Ditko as his OWN idea to incorporate into the new story. 

Stan is NOT sold on Ditko's cover so he has Kirby redo it. 

The plan is to have the three characters each in a former monster/sci-fi title that maybe Goodman won't really realize are now superheroes.

The reaction to Spider-man is instant and it makes a difference in Marvel continuing on...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1962

Journey Into Mystery #83 - Let's back track here...

Stan Lee and Steve Ditko also had a story in this issue (signed on the splash as Stan Lee & S. Ditko), which wasn't reprinted again until 2019! But why?

Well for one, it's one of the goofiest stories they've done in an issue where the Mighty Thor is introduced and secondly, it clearly has Stan's signature in an issue where he DOESN'T sign the Thor story.

Thirdly...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1962

Journey Into Mystery #83 - it's another example of Lee taking someone else's old ---script and having a current artist 'rework' the story, and then Lee signing HIS name as the writer. 

This issue of Journey Into Mystery clearly defines many things - Kirby creating, again without the assistance of Lee (thus no signature - at this point do you REALLY believe Stan would allow something like this Thor story to go to print without HIS signature if he had anything to do with it?), and yet make sure he signed THIS silly story by Ditko? THEN to have the story held up as an example of his ---script swiping?

Maybe that's why Journey Into Mystery #83 and Tales to Astonish #35 have never been reprinted in their entirety - unlike FF #1, AF #15 (which has back up features by Lee), Hulk #1, etc.... because Lee COULDN'T sign what was clearly Kirby's WRITTEN (and penciled) work.

As he later tried taking credit for it - over the years it was brought to his attention that he didn't sign it - it wasn't until Roy Thomas began running his phoney stories about Larry Lieber 'scripting' these books... 

Think about it... no mention that Lee plotted and Larry scripted until the mid to late 90's???

And what set off this chain of events?

Edited January 15, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Dr. Haydn]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:49 AM, Prince Namor said:

ANATOMY OF A STORY

Amazing Fantasy #15 - The way I believe it happened, based on everything assembled here since 1954.

Jack was constantly trying to get Stan to do superheroes. Goodman was not keen on it and Stan feared antagonizing his in-law/boss because business was not as good as he would've liked and the comics division was nearly shut down a few times. 

Once the FF slides through... Hulk is next because it doesn't LOOK like a superhero. 

Going into the Fall of 1962, the monster book sales start to slip - the dumb blonde books aren't doing any better and the westerns are even worse. Lee fears Goodman may really close shop in the fall this time, so he decides to go for it. He lets's Jack do Thor in JIM, and Ant-Man in TTA, plus bring in the Spider-man idea. He'll ram all three through at once. 

Jack brings him the idea for 'Spider-man' based on the ideas he'd done over the years with Joe Simon. Some of those ideas were already reworked into the Fly at Archie Comics. Ditko immediately recognizes this. Stan gives the idea for him to do so that it's different from the Fly. Ditko works from Stan's synopsis (which is actually Jack's partial story) and makes the changes we now see as AF #15. 

Having discussed story ideas with Jack, and Jack reusing his own ideas (loved one dies, because hero isn't there for him), Stan passes this along to Ditko as his OWN idea to incorporate into the new story. 

Stan is NOT sold on Ditko's cover so he has Kirby redo it. 

The plan is to have the three characters each in a former monster/sci-fi title that maybe Goodman won't really realize are now superheroes.

The reaction to Spider-man is instant and it makes a difference in Marvel continuing on...

Sounds about right to me, though I suggest a slightly different timeframe. I suspect the line started to slip over the winter of 1961-62 (the price increase to 12 cents happened in late 1961). At that stage, FF was still bimonthly, and Hulk #1 was in production. The blitz of characters that eventually saved the company started in the spring, with Thor, the retooled Ant-Man, the (possibly earlier, but shelved until '62) Human Torch series, and Spider-man (the original art on the splash says "Apr. '62"). Sales must have been good on most or all of these new series, so Stan went ahead with an Iron Man feature in Tales of Suspense and putting Spider-man into his own book at the end of 1962. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Dr. Haydn