Overrated Key "First" Books 5 5

[Kramerica]

On 2/3/2023 at 12:24 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Yup.  Great book.  The spec junkies are just pissed that the MCU ruined it.

Okay, everyone changed my mind. I now love the book.  Please forgive me saying anything about the book!

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 2/3/2023 at 3:29 PM, Kramerica said:

Okay, everyone changed my mind. I now love the book.  Please forgive me saying anything about the book!

[Gatsby77]

On 2/3/2023 at 3:23 PM, Lazyboy said:

The Gold is, of course, the second printing of the issue, but is the Platinum a reprint or was it just sent out later?

Sent out later - but the fact remains it's as much a reprint as the gold.

As in, not available (anywhere) the same week as the Silver, Green or bagged versions were. Retailers instead got a "one-per-store" certificate that they'd later be sent a copy of the Platinum. Don't recall if came weeks or months later, but either way...it's still a reprint.

[Lazyboy]

On 2/3/2023 at 2:49 PM, Gatsby77 said:

Sent out later - but the fact remains it's as much a reprint as the gold.

As in, not available (anywhere) the same week as the Silver, Green or bagged versions were. Retailers instead got a "one-per-store" certificate that they'd later be sent a copy of the Platinum. Don't recall if came weeks or months later, but either way...it's still a reprint.

Printing means printing. Distribution means distribution. Two different things.

[trademarkcomics]

On 2/3/2023 at 11:25 AM, Gatsby77 said:

But like...both the Platinum and Gold UPC are reprints as well.

Literally - the Platinum came out a few months later, as did the Gold, UPC Wal-Mart version or Direct.

I mean - I agree with you - I have no desire to own the "Marvel Collectibles Classics" or whatever they're called, but even as reprints they're no less legit than the Silver Age 1966 Golden Record Reprints or the Platinum or Gold Spidey # 1s.

The Platinum edition came out after as a dealer incentive. The Gold was a 2nd printing. At least they came out in the same timeframe and as such, I would consider them variants(as they would be if the same thing occurred today). The chromium editions came out later than most reprints did in the old days and as with Marvel Tales, Marvel's Greatest Comics and the similarly titled Marvel Collectors Item Classics, they don't even share the same title and issue(Marvel Collectible Classics: Spider-Man #2). The only difference between these and the old reprint titles is that gimmick cover and a limited print run. They should be worth something, just not as much as the original limited run gimmicky cover variants like the Gold UPC or Platinum. 

[trademarkcomics]

On 2/3/2023 at 12:49 PM, Gatsby77 said:

Sent out later - but the fact remains it's as much a reprint as the gold.

As in, not available (anywhere) the same week as the Silver, Green or bagged versions were. Retailers instead got a "one-per-store" certificate that they'd later be sent a copy of the Platinum. Don't recall if came weeks or months later, but either way...it's still a reprint.

Second and later printings are not necessarily considered "reprints"(comic book terminology, not in actuality since anything reprinted after original publication date is reprinted). 

And dealer incentive books now are considered variants. How do we know when the platinum edition was actually printed? 

Edited February 3, 2023 by trademarkcomics
More info

[Lazyboy]

On 2/3/2023 at 2:56 PM, trademarkcomics said:

The Gold was a 2nd printing. At least they came out in the same timeframe and as such, I would consider them variants

And you would be wrong. Reprints are not variants of the original book.

On 2/3/2023 at 2:56 PM, trademarkcomics said:

(as they would be if the same thing occurred today).

No, they wouldn't. Reprints are not variants.

On 2/3/2023 at 3:00 PM, trademarkcomics said:

Second and later printings are not necessarily considered "reprints"(comic book terminology, not in actuality since anything reprinted after original publication date is reprinted). 

Of course they are. They're just a specific kind of reprint.

On 2/3/2023 at 3:00 PM, trademarkcomics said:

And dealer incentive books now are considered variants.

They are variants. They're different versions of the same issue, all printed together.

On 2/3/2023 at 3:00 PM, trademarkcomics said:

How do we know when the platinum edition was actually printed? 

That's the question. Is it a variant or just a special edition reprint?

[trademarkcomics]

[Dr. Balls]

I miss the good ole days that in between serious posts, there were 8-9 comedic posts. 

[Jesse-Lee]

On 2/3/2023 at 11:44 AM, trademarkcomics said:

And make no mistake, the industry needs new collectors to keep it going. I know if I were new and paid $10,000 for  Hulk #181, I'd be pretty mad and/or turned off on comic collecting if I were to find out he actually made his first full appearance(by Webster's definition, not by "comic book terminology") the issue before.

There could be a shift along these lines (but in reverse) with the recent Damian Wayne news for his "first appearance." 655 was always the book to own based on collector's habits. But now, 656 is selling at about as brisk a pace and at nearly the same value as 655. We could potentially see a shift where people begin to gravitate toward 656 as the book to have when it comes to Damian. It's actually pretty interesting to watch it unfold. As someone who wasn't collecting back in the 180/181 emergence in value, I don't know if there was a similar shift back then from 180 being the "it book" to 181 - all I've ever known was 181 as the one to have.

I'm a huge DC fan, but the obvious caveat is that (at least in my opinion, but feels like a safe take) Damian Wayne will never be on the level of Wolverine. Still an interesting collecting phenomenon though.

Edit: Added some comedy so as not to upset @Dr. Balls:

Edited February 4, 2023 by Jesse-Lee

[trademarkcomics]

On 2/3/2023 at 5:01 PM, Jesse-Lee said:

There could be a shift along these lines (but in reverse) with the recent Damian Wayne news for his "first appearance." 655 was always the book to own based on collector's habits. But now, 656 is selling at about as brisk a pace and at nearly the same value as 655. We could potentially see a shift where people begin to gravitate toward 656 as the book to have when it comes to Damian. It's actually pretty interesting to watch it unfold. As someone who wasn't collecting back in the 180/181 emergence in value, I don't know if there was a similar shift back then from 180 being the "it book" to 181 - all I've ever known was 181 as the one to have.

I'm a huge DC fan, but the obvious caveat is that (at least in my opinion, but feels like a safe take) Damian Wayne will never be on the level of Wolverine. Still an interesting collecting phenomenon though.

Edit: Added some comedy so as not to upset @Dr. Balls:

 

And I have zero problem with this. I don't think Hulk 180 should have the highest value of the two, I just think it does a disservice to those attempting to figure out which they'd rather have to say(or even imply) it's not Wolverine's first appearance. 181 is a much more appealing book with that classic cover and the first comic to have Wolverine action from start to finish, but it is not the first time he was seen. Readers back then had 28 days to absorb the Wolverine name, the fact that he had claws on his hands and was obviously a total badass. There were probably already conversations in those 4 weeks about whether Wolverine could beat Spider-Man or Captain America. And his appearance was in-story, not some ad for the next issue. So, people can speculate on Marvel's motives behind his appearance at the end of Hulk #180 but they cannot argue that he didn't make an appearance.

Spidey's role in Civil War was relatively minor, but one could still argue it's the best appearance he's made so far(it at least might have had the most impact on viewers). 

I'd love to hear from those who were kids and bought #180 back in the day. What would they say about it and how much of an impact it made on them. I know Hobgoblin's appearance at the end of ASM #238 made a ridiculously huge impact on me.

Edited February 4, 2023 by trademarkcomics

[Jesse-Lee]

On 2/3/2023 at 7:26 PM, trademarkcomics said:

And I have zero problem with this.

Oh, I agree 100% - this is exactly the time the market should decide, when there is an emergence of a character or book as it happens in real time. I think Hulk 181 is the definitive Wolverine book, regardless of where people stand on the "first appearance" semantics, because the market decided and it was cemented (and it really is a great cover). I think as this Damian Wayne news has come up, it'll take time for the masses to finally decide which is the definitive book. I own more copies of 655, but I do own multiple copies of both that and 656. I bought in heavier on 655 due to conventional wisdom of the time, but I was lucky enough where I was paying $10-15 for a copy of 655 and $5-10 for a copy of 656 (except for the $140 655 newsstand 9.2 I just bought, but I'm cool with that because it's so sweet in-hand).

[Dr. Balls]

On 2/3/2023 at 6:01 PM, Jesse-Lee said:

There could be a shift along these lines (but in reverse) with the recent Damian Wayne news for his "first appearance." 655 was always the book to own based on collector's habits. But now, 656 is selling at about as brisk a pace and at nearly the same value as 655. We could potentially see a shift where people begin to gravitate toward 656 as the book to have when it comes to Damian. It's actually pretty interesting to watch it unfold.

I kind of waded into the speculation arena on this run of Batman - I opted for the longshot of #657, seeing that it's his first cover and (I believe, I haven't read it yet) his first full appearance in the story. There's a lengthy discussion of this in Modern about the three books, but I'm not diving into that commentary, just reading. I am gambling on #657 being the "ASM #300" of the first of three Damien appearances.

And thanks for the comedy. 

[Jesse-Lee]

On 2/3/2023 at 8:03 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I kind of waded into the speculation arena on this run of Batman - I opted for the longshot of #657, seeing that it's his first cover and (I believe, I haven't read it yet) his first full appearance in the story. There's a lengthy discussion of this in Modern about the three books, but I'm not diving into that commentary, just reading. I am gambling on #657 being the "ASM #300" of the first of three Damien appearances.

And thanks for the comedy. 

I would be interested to see 657 rise in value since I have a bunch of those too. I did a breakdown earlier in this thread about his appearances across the 3 books, and your comparison to Venom is a good one - Damian's in shadows in 655, revealed in a last-page splash in 656, and then 657 is all about him. I do think 655/656 have a running start compared to 657 as the book to own though, but hopefully they all see nice increases (although I miss the days of finding them for cheap online and in show bins). I do really like the Morrison Batman run anyway, so I'm happy to see these books get their due. I was luckily targeting newsstands of 666 a while back too (it's kind of a "What if?" style, Elseworlds style story where Damian becomes Batman) - I have 2 graded copies (9.0, 9.6) and 1 raw of 666 newsstand that cost me a total of $145, and a newsstand 9.8 just sold for $680 even before the Damian news, where the direct edition 9.8 was typically around $200... I probably won't sell them anyway, so I guess it doesn't really matter to me, but it's nice to know my stuff is increasing in value I guess - I have a hard time letting go of my Bat-books.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Jesse-Lee

[Pat Thomas]

On 2/3/2023 at 7:26 PM, trademarkcomics said:

And I have zero problem with this. I don't think Hulk 180 should have the highest value of the two, I just think it does a disservice to those attempting to figure out which they'd rather have to say(or even imply) it's not Wolverine's first appearance. 181 is a much more appealing book with that classic cover and the first comic to have Wolverine action from start to finish, but it is not the first time he was seen. Readers back then had 28 days to absorb the Wolverine name, the fact that he had claws on his hands and was obviously a total badass. There were probably already conversations in those 4 weeks about whether Wolverine could beat Spider-Man or Captain America. And his appearance was in-story, not some ad for the next issue. So, people can speculate on Marvel's motives behind his appearance at the end of Hulk #180 but they cannot argue that he didn't make an appearance.

Spidey's role in Civil War was relatively minor, but one could still argue it's the best appearance he's made so far(it at least might have had the most impact on viewers). 

I'd love to hear from those who were kids and bought #180 back in the day. What would they say about it and how much of an impact it made on them. I know Hobgoblin's appearance at the end of ASM #238 made a ridiculously huge impact on me.

I bought 180 when it came out.  Actually read it at magazine rack in grocery store while Mom shopped. When I got to the last page and saw "Weapon X", I thought he was the coolest looking character ever and couldn't wait to read the next issue. The single panel with him in it excited me enough to find my mother in the store and show her this awesome new guy (she wasn't nearly as impressed as I was). I have no doubt that it's his appearance, but I anticipated 181 until it came out, which is the first Wolverine story whether you think it's any good or not. The cover is striking even now. It blew my mind as an 8 year-old and I treasured it much more than 180, and that was the sentiment of other kids I knew. 180 was a Wendigo story with a throwaway panel to introduce Wolverine. 181 was superior though and should be the more valuable of the two. 182 was a cheap way to give him a little more exposure in a totally unrelated story. Also the only thing that prompted me to look at GS X-Men 1 was seeing Wolverine on the cover. I wonder how many people only bought that book because of his appearance in Incredible Hulk.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 2/4/2023 at 8:10 AM, Pat Thomas said:

I bought 180 when it came out.  Actually read it at magazine rack in grocery store while Mom shopped. When I got to the last page and saw "Weapon X", I thought he was the coolest looking character ever and couldn't wait to read the next issue. The single panel with him in it excited me enough to find my mother in the store and show her this awesome new guy (she wasn't nearly as impressed as I was). I have no doubt that it's his appearance, but I anticipated 181 until it came out, which is the first Wolverine story whether you think it's any good or not. The cover is striking even now. It blew my mind as an 8 year-old and I treasured it much more than 180, and that was the sentiment of other kids I knew. 180 was a Wendigo story with a throwaway panel to introduce Wolverine. 181 was superior though and should be the more valuable of the two. 182 was a cheap way to give him a little more exposure in a totally unrelated story. Also the only thing that prompted me to look at GS X-Men 1 was seeing Wolverine on the cover. I wonder how many people only bought that book because of his appearance in Incredible Hulk.

  I was only 3 when 180 came out, and have always assumed Wolverine was a throw away character until Byrne got ahold of him.   Thanks for sharing your experience & excitement for the character  

[trademarkcomics]

On 2/4/2023 at 5:10 AM, Pat Thomas said:

I bought 180 when it came out.  Actually read it at magazine rack in grocery store while Mom shopped. When I got to the last page and saw "Weapon X", I thought he was the coolest looking character ever and couldn't wait to read the next issue. The single panel with him in it excited me enough to find my mother in the store and show her this awesome new guy (she wasn't nearly as impressed as I was). I have no doubt that it's his appearance, but I anticipated 181 until it came out, which is the first Wolverine story whether you think it's any good or not. The cover is striking even now. It blew my mind as an 8 year-old and I treasured it much more than 180, and that was the sentiment of other kids I knew. 180 was a Wendigo story with a throwaway panel to introduce Wolverine. 181 was superior though and should be the more valuable of the two. 182 was a cheap way to give him a little more exposure in a totally unrelated story. Also the only thing that prompted me to look at GS X-Men 1 was seeing Wolverine on the cover. I wonder how many people only bought that book because of his appearance in Incredible Hulk.

  Thank you for sharing. I had the same exact experience with ASM #237-238. At the end of #237* there's a small preview of the next issue on the letters page with the cover of #238(see below). Hobgoblin is colored in green goblin colors(maybe they decided to change his coloring at the last minute?). I didn't even know who Green Goblin was(My first issue was #235) but that cover was so cool to a ten year old boy that I waited in bated breath for a month then sprinted to the grocery store on comic book day for #238 and it did not disappoint.

  You do bring up a good point. #181 is the "first Wolverine story". Because even though #238 doesn't have Hobgoblin in costume until the very end, there is no doubt it's the first Hobgoblin story. If we simply changed the terminology to that instead of the flawed appearance thing, books like #180, X-Men Annual #14(since Gambit is not the focus of the story) or even Jimmy Olsen #134 could be valued for being the characters' first appearances, while we should definitely value a character's first story more. 

 

*Still, I value that first look at Hobby so much, I made sure to find a CGC 9.8 Amazing Spider-Man #237 newsstand(since that's what I collected from the local grocery store) of it. So, I would think you would have a nice copy of 180 in your collection, even if you value 181 more.

[valiantman]

The debate will never end, but I just want to throw in the suggestion that "cameo" should be replaced with the word "glimpse".

(But it should never be used for advertisements.) 

Edited February 6, 2023 by valiantman

[Ken Aldred]

On 2/6/2023 at 2:41 PM, valiantman said:

The debate will never end, but I just want to throw in the suggestion that "cameo" should be replaced with the word "glimpse".

(But it should never be used for advertisements.) 

Prefer cameo. Like on TV, in movies.  Another visual, dramatic medium.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 2/6/2023 at 8:32 PM, Ken Aldred said:

Prefer cameo. Like on TV, in movies.  Another visual, dramatic medium.

Except that a previously unknown character can’t make a cameo on TV or in the movies....