Overrated Key "First" Books 5 5

[Ken Aldred]

On 2/7/2023 at 2:14 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Except that a previously unknown character can’t make a cameo on TV or in the movies....

Good point.  A classic example of 'don't post at 2 in the morning' from me here.

[trademarkcomics]

On 2/6/2023 at 6:41 AM, valiantman said:

The debate will never end, but I just want to throw in the suggestion that "cameo" should be replaced with the word "glimpse".

(But it should never be used for advertisements.) 

"Glimpse" would be fine for Eddie Brock's arm in ASM #298, but I wouldn't consider glimpse being an adequate description of the panel with him in all his glory at the end of #299 or Wolverine at the end of #180. One could obsess over what they look like they could a photograph. I would not consider a full body picture of someone as a "glimpse" of them. You glimpse the sun as it sets, or the moon as a break in the cloud passes by. 

 

[Lazyboy]

On 2/6/2023 at 9:50 PM, trademarkcomics said:

"Glimpse" would be fine for Eddie Brock's arm in ASM #298, but I wouldn't consider glimpse being an adequate description of the panel with him in all his glory at the end of #299 or Wolverine at the end of #180. One could obsess over what they look like they could a photograph. I would not consider a full body picture of someone as a "glimpse" of them. You glimpse the sun as it sets, or the moon as a break in the cloud passes by.

... or a character in one single panel.

[Ken Aldred]

On 2/7/2023 at 2:14 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Except that a previously unknown character can’t make a cameo on TV or in the movies....

Maybe what I was thinking of is when an actor becomes a star an earlier minor bit part when they’re a newcomer or unknown can then be referred to as a cameo appearance.

Retroactive, like that.  Applies to Wolvie.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Ken Aldred

[trademarkcomics]

On 2/6/2023 at 9:50 PM, Lazyboy said:

... or a character in one single panel.

Other "glimpses" according to your definition...

 

Glimpses at a moment in time, sure. But these are images burned into our minds, not a momentary glimpse at the sun or moon that while may make an impact in the moment, get lost in our minds as abstract memories. Readers of ASM #299 & Hulk #180 had 4-5 weeks to look and relook, examine and reexamine these "glimpses":

Edited February 7, 2023 by trademarkcomics

[THE_BEYONDER]

Hulk 180 - 1st appearance of Wolverine 

Hulk 181 - 1st Full Wolverine story 

Just get rid of the term ‘cameo’ because it doesn’t apply at all

[Wally's Comics]

On 2/7/2023 at 2:31 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Hulk 180 - 1st appearance of Wolverine 

Hulk 181 - 1st Full Wolverine story 

Just get rid of the term ‘cameo’ because it doesn’t apply at all

The Inhouse ads first appearances too??? 

Heaven Forbid! 

 

[trademarkcomics]

On 2/7/2023 at 11:49 AM, Wally's Comics said:

The Inhouse ads first appearances too??? 

Heaven Forbid! 

 

Those in-house ads were debunked a long time ago. They came out after #180. Regardless, only in-story appearances should count. Not everyone buys preview mags(I know I didn't when I was a kid, still rarely do...I like to be surprised), or even looks at the ads while they read a comic. 

Was Destro's first appearance in one of those tv commercials they had in the 80s for the comic? We have to draw the line somewhere. 

[Wally's Comics]

On 2/7/2023 at 3:02 PM, trademarkcomics said:

Those in-house ads were debunked a long time ago. They came out after #180. Regardless, only in-story appearances should count. Not everyone buys preview mags(I know I didn't when I was a kid, still rarely do...I like to be surprised), or even looks at the ads while they read a comic. 

Was Destro's first appearance in one of those tv commercials they had in the 80s for the comic? We have to draw the line somewhere. 

It's called a joke... 
Anyway, we can argue until our faces turn blue - and It steals a real collector's feelings, but it's the market that decides what is relevant.
My head did a 180 when I saw FF 49 start to creep on FF 48 price wise - but the market decided that the first cover app is important for SS
(or are we really trying to tell ourselves that the 1st full Galactus is all that and a bag of chips -lol).

FOOM 10 is another crazy outlier, but it's what the market decides...

I've seen stranger things happen.

[Ken Aldred]

On 2/8/2023 at 2:15 PM, Wally's Comics said:

but it's what the market decides...

Yup. It’s out of our control, and no point going around in circles all the time about it.

[theCapraAegagrus]

The market doesn't decide what a "first appearance" is, the market only decides how much the first appearance is worth compared to first cover appearance, etc. A first is a first regardless of how much anyone is willing to pay.

[Ken Aldred]

On 2/8/2023 at 3:03 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

The market doesn't decide what a "first appearance" is, the market only decides how much the first appearance is worth compared to first cover appearance, etc. A first is a first regardless of how much anyone is willing to pay.

Actually, you’re right.

I’m doing well in this thread.

[Wally's Comics]

On 2/8/2023 at 10:03 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

The market doesn't decide what a "first appearance" is, the market only decides how much the first appearance is worth compared to first cover appearance, etc. A first is a first regardless of how much anyone is willing to pay.

So I guess it could be broken down further on the terms of the definition of what a first appearance is.
Just like a philosophy of Art conundrum "what is Art?" and Many experts on that topic all point to the significance why it is important to define it so...
i.o.w. why would someone care 90% of the time on what is really a first app or not - if it wasn't for the fact of the importance of value?
I'm not saying that value dictates what is a 1st app actually is - but I do think it's what makes the book significant.

for example: AF15 and ASM 1 in the 90's were shockingly close in value in the OSPG
I thought this was 100% absurd because the 1st app is always the book to have. Yet I could only guess that the underlier of this stat was the novices that didn't understand ASM 1 wasn't the 1st app.
Could they have just only wanted the 1st issue of ASM? Is that what drove the price? 
I don't believe that. It may have sold some copies, but not created significant demand to make it close...

That's why I personally feel ASM 1 to be the most over rated key IMHO (and this comes from a Spidey Die-Hard)...
I still won't give up my copy so don't ask for it!  

[trademarkcomics]

Just saw an ad for Secret Wars 9 described as the "2nd Black Suit".

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 2/8/2023 at 7:03 PM, Wally's Comics said:

...i.o.w. why would someone care 90% of the time on what is really a first app or not - if it wasn't for the fact of the importance of value?
I'm not saying that value dictates what is a 1st app actually is - but I do think it's what makes the book significant.

And there are different levels of significance; Supply and demand determine how a 1st interior appearance vs 1st cover appearance shakes out financially.

[Wally's Comics]

On 2/9/2023 at 6:58 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

And there are different levels of significance; Supply and demand determine how a 1st interior appearance vs 1st cover appearance shakes out financially.

most definitely, there are many factors...
like I'm still waiting to see if Strange Tales 115 will ever see it's day
it has to be one of my fav Marvel Origin story books - yet since he still isn't on the cover no one gives a flip about it
I feel it is mainly bought for other factors (2nd sandman and an early spidey crossover), oh well...

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 2/9/2023 at 8:56 AM, Wally's Comics said:

like I'm still waiting to see if Strange Tales 115 will ever see it's day

If origin stories aren't that sought-after, it may never have its day. I've only really ever heard about Batman's origin issue being highly desired, but that's also a Golden Age book, so that's another factor to consider.

[Wally's Comics]

On 2/9/2023 at 9:12 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

If origin stories aren't that sought-after, it may never have its day. I've only really ever heard about Batman's origin issue being highly desired, but that's also a Golden Age book, so that's another factor to consider.

I guess I am too much a fan boy for many of these speculations -   

That said - Even though I'm a marvel head, I've always said the best book from cover to back cover (when you factor all - writing, art, inking, cover art etc)
is a DC - Batman 251. It's kind of funny, but a decade ago before that book blew up, I talked to Neal over dinner that he should take a bow for Bats 251
His reply is even better - "which book is that?"       

[Ken Aldred]

On 2/9/2023 at 5:28 PM, Wally's Comics said:

I guess I am too much a fan boy for many of these speculations -   

That said - Even though I'm a marvel head, I've always said the best book from cover to back cover (when you factor all - writing, art, inking, cover art etc)
is a DC - Batman 251. It's kind of funny, but a decade ago before that book blew up, I talked to Neal over dinner that he should take a bow for Bats 251
His reply is even better - "which book is that?"       

For me, Adams’ career-best comic artwork.

[Gatsby77]

On 2/9/2023 at 12:28 PM, Wally's Comics said:

I guess I am too much a fan boy for many of these speculations -   

That said - Even though I'm a marvel head, I've always said the best book from cover to back cover (when you factor all - writing, art, inking, cover art etc)
is a DC - Batman 251. It's kind of funny, but a decade ago before that book blew up, I talked to Neal over dinner that he should take a bow for Bats 251
His reply is even better - "which book is that?"       

That reflects my experience with him too.

The only time I met him was at AwesomeCon in DC 4-5 years ago.

I told him I *loved* Batman 217 - which has a forgettable cover but is a key Bronze Batman book because:

• It's a *really* well-done single-issue detective story ("One Bullet Too Many")
• MR. Grayson quits being Robin & leaves to go to college
• Bruce Wayne closes up the Batcave and moves HQ downtown to Wayne Tower - to be closer to and better fight the crime of the 1970s, particularly white collar crime.

Adams replied something to the effect of he didn't remember it and didn't care - it was work he was paid for more than 40 years ago.

It was clear he'd rather talk about anything *but* comic books.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Gatsby77