Overrated Key "First" Books 5 5

[sfcityduck]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:32 PM, Lazyboy said:

 

It is an appearance, but not all appearances are equal (or even close), first or otherwise.

 

A first appearance is a first appearance.  That's a matter of history and accuracy, not money.  I can think of a number of situations where a character's first appearance is not their most valuable appearance.  So too with Wolverine.

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:32 PM, Lazyboy said:

 

Was it surprising decades before CGC existed? CGC didn't change anything for these issues.

Ah ... youth!  The answer is "Yes"!

Don't know how old you are, but back at the height of the X-Men popularity in 1981, at the tale of the Claremont-Byrne-Austin run, and before all things X-Men got over X-ploited, a IH 180 was priced at $12 in the OPG and denoted as Wolverine's "first appearance" whereas 181 and 182 were both priced at half that (and less than X-Men 108!  GSX 1 and 94 were both $60).

As a point of comparison, back then Action 2 was twice the price of Action 7 and 10.  

You see, back then folks bought comics to read -- not to turn into baseball cards.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/24/2023 at 7:32 PM, sfcityduck said:

A first appearance is a first appearance.  That's a matter of history and accuracy, not money.  I can think of a number of situations were a characters first appearance is not their most valuable appearance.  So too with Wolverine.

 

I don't care about value. I'll discuss it when appropriate or necessary, but it is not at all my focus.

[sfcityduck]

On 1/24/2023 at 5:08 PM, Lazyboy said:

I didn't call you stupid. I said you don't understand stories or why people care about them.

I think it can safely be said that everyone on this Board understands stories and why people care about them.  Why else would they post on this Board?  

The question to ask yourself is: "Do I understand storytelling?"  Because there are a LOT of ways to tell a story.  Sometimes stories get spooled out with a tidbit in the beginning, something else in the middle, and a reveal at the end.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/24/2023 at 7:41 PM, sfcityduck said:

Ah ... youth!  The answer is "Yes"!

Don't know how old you are, but back at the height of the X-Men popularity in 1981, at the tale of the Claremont-Byrne-Austin run, and before all things X-Men got over X-ploited, a IH 180 was priced at $12 in the OPG and denoted as Wolverine's "first appearance" whereas 181 and 182 were both priced at half that (and less than X-Men 108!  GSX 1 and 94 were both $60).

As a point of comparison, back then Action 2 was twice the price of Action 7 and 10.  

You see, back then folks bought comics to read -- not to turn into baseball cards.

Yeah, I've seen the analysis of historical values (well, OPG numbers, which were supposedly actually close to the market back then, unlike now) of 180/181. There were a couple of editions that had 180 ahead, though there are multiple people on this message board who have claimed that didn't match what they saw at stores and shows. But 181 has been on top for 40+ years, since Wolverine really became popular.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/24/2023 at 7:41 PM, sfcityduck said:

You see, back then folks bought comics to read

Exactly. Nobody reads a comic to see a single panel of Character X. Nor does anybody read a novel to read a single sentence about Character X.

There's a reason that, when Marvel reprinted a single issue to represent Wolverine's debut, it was Incredible Hulk 181.

[sfcityduck]

On 1/24/2023 at 6:27 PM, Lazyboy said:

Yeah, I've seen the analysis of historical values (well, OPG numbers, which were supposedly actually close to the market back then, unlike now) of 180/181. There were a couple of editions that had 180 ahead, though there are multiple people on this message board who have claimed that didn't match what they saw at stores and shows. But 181 has been on top for 40+ years, since Wolverine really became popular.

You asked a question and I gave you an answer.  As someone who was actively collecting all things X in the late 70s and early 80s, I can assure you that 180 was considered the first appearance (because, after all, it is).  The prices reflected that.  Wolverine became really popular during the Claremont-Byrne-Austin run. Byrne had a love for his fellow Canadian.  But the notion of "key hot books" didn't exist back then.  Dealers weren't overhyping every frigging thing out of a desire to dupe someone into buying FOOM because it was Wolverine's first appearance.  Comic collecting was far more about love of the medium back then not of the greenback.

[MAR1979]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:27 PM, Lazyboy said:

 

If you want to get more specific, I will call out two of the worst that aren't last page setups: Marvel Super-Heroes 13 (Carol Danvers) and Avengers 181 (Scott Lang). Wow, I really get to see a single page of a regular human working? Just take my wallet!

Avengers 181 - Lang is merely icing on the cake.  Cover is Stone Classic, the Crown Jewel of Perez Avengers covers. Not to mention a full page Byrne splash with the same cover imagery.   For many it is the key Avengers issue of their comics generation in this case the children readers of 1978-1982.  Back then a generation of comic readers was approx 4 years. 

So yes agreed Overrated as 1st Lang, but Underrated as a generational Avengers cover and story.

Edited January 25, 2023 by MAR1979

[Lazyboy]

On 1/24/2023 at 8:47 PM, sfcityduck said:

You asked a question and I gave you an answer.  As someone who was actively collecting all things X in the late 70s and early 80s, I can assure you that 180 was considered the first appearance (because, after all, it is).  The prices reflected that.  Wolverine became really popular during the Claremont-Byrne-Austin run. Byrne had a love for his fellow Canadian.  But the notion of "key hot books" didn't exist back then.  Dealers weren't overhyping every frigging thing out of a desire to dupe someone into buying FOOM because it was Wolverine's first appearance.  Comic collecting was far more about love of the medium back then not of the greenback.

The question I asked was whether it was surprising 40+ years ago, long before CGC was even an idea, that Hulk 181 was worth more than 180, because it was. You're still trying to claim that 180 was on top.

Forget whatever numbers Bob decided to put in his book. How about actual prices from a dealer at the time?

[sfcityduck]

On 1/24/2023 at 6:54 PM, MAR1979 said:

Avengers 181 - Lang is merely icing on the cake.  Cover is Stone classic, the Crown Jewel of Perez Avengers covers. Not to mention a full page Byrne splash with the same cover imagery.   For many it is the key avengers issue of their comics generation in this case the children readers of 1978-1982.  Back then a generation of comic readers was approx 4 years. 

So yes agreed Overrated as 1st Lang, but Underrated as a generational Avengers cover and story.

For me, Avengers 181-201 are one of the greatest runs of my youth! The Byrne run especially.  

[sfcityduck]

On 1/24/2023 at 6:59 PM, Lazyboy said:

The question I asked was whether it was surprising 40+ years ago, long before CGC was even an idea, that Hulk 181 was worth more than 180, because it was. You're still trying to claim that 180 was on top.

Forget whatever numbers Bob decided to put in his book. How about actual prices from a dealer at the time?

 

 

I can tell you actual prices from a dealer because I paid them, and they were in line with OPG.

Here's the thing you don't realize: 1980 was pre-internet.  There was no "national market" for comics. Some comics would become hot in one part of the country but still be dirt cheap in another.  The only common ground was the OPG.  And to the vast majority of collectors back then, it was a bible.  This allowed the most savy collectors and dealers to make money off information disparities.  That's a lot harder to do today!

I'm not surprised there were dealers pricing 180 above 181.  And I'm not surprised by the reverse. It used to be that Albedo 0 and 1 were way more expensive than Albedo 2.  Things change.  But I can assure that when I bought my Hulk 180, 181, and 182 back in 80-81, it was clear that 180 was the first appearance (and that meant in my mind and many others it was the biggest book), 181 was a cool cover, and 182 was a bit of rip-off but you had to have it if, like me, you wanted every appearance of the New X-Men.  Yeah, we were that OCD.  That's why Marvel got away with ripping us OCD collectors off with so many bad limited series, cross-overs, and events.  I blame collectors like me who bought stuff like Kitty Pryde and Wolverine.

In any event, many LCS didn't carry the adzines like Comic Buyers Guide. I didn't see those publications until I was going to shops like Comics & Comix in the Bay Area - you didn't see them in my home state of Oregon. So I got a subscription.  My LCS had killer books to be sure, that's where I got my 180, 181 and 182, and the owner read the CBG and bought comics out of auctions like Collector's Showcase, but dealing was more an expression of passion than a path to riches in those days. My LCS owner was living above his store (not a great home) when he bought his Action 1 with help from loans from his family. He lived a simple life.  He didn't like to sell his personal books. And he's still sitting on his Action 1 and long runs of GA books.

Also, in the 70s and early 80s most collectors wanted complete title runs. I wanted every X-Men issue, I didn't like the Hulk at all. I wasn't going around looking for "first appearance" because who cared? That was a distraction from the core of what you wanted: The story.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/24/2023 at 7:44 PM, sfcityduck said:

I think it can safely be said that everyone on this Board understands stories and why people care about them.  Why else would they post on this Board?  

On 1/24/2023 at 7:44 PM, sfcityduck said:

The question to ask yourself is: "Do I understand storytelling?"  Because there are a LOT of ways to tell a story.  Sometimes stories get spooled out with a tidbit in the beginning, something else in the middle, and a reveal at the end.

I understand storytelling very well. It's true that there are many way to tell stories. There are also many techniques that are commonly used in serialized stories, like cliffhangers and teasers.

Tidbits in a single installment of an ongoing story don't necessarily have anything to do with that specific installment. An example of this that could be used in this thread is Mystique. She first (briefly) appeared in Ms. Marvel 16 as a mysterious character who was barely, partially shown doing some surveillance. That page had nothing to do with the rest of the story in that issue, but that plot thread was followed up on in the following issue. Hell, if Claremont had written Hulk 180, we might not have seen Weapon X for another decade! (okay, Claremont didn't actually get that bad until later)

[sfcityduck]

 

On 1/24/2023 at 7:46 PM, Lazyboy said:

Hell, if Claremont had written Hulk 180, we might not have seen Weapon X for another decade! (okay, Claremont didn't actually get that bad until later)

I bought this page of original art at Comics & Comix on Telegraph Ave. in Berkeley with some money I got for Christmas back in 1980. I think it cost $60 or so:

What grabbed my heart was the visual gag on the computer screen by Terry Austin.  He writes something to the effect of "Hey John, ya still doing funny books?  When ya going to get a real job?"

When I bought it, there was white out on the margins.  I carefully scraped it off when I got it home.  It had a nice instruction to the colorist about Jean "zapping herself starkers."  

I didn't give any thought to the figure lurking in the dark corner of the final panel.  

But that panel is nothing like the last page of Hulk 180.

Sadly, I sold this page on eBay in the late 90s to fund a fine art purchase.  I got about $1,200 or so it and it funded my purchase of two woodblock prints that meant a lot to me. The artists had given a painting to my grandmother. The woodblocks have since completely blown-up in value so it was a great investment.  

But I still wish I had the art back.  This image is from CAF where the present owner (whoever that is) displays it.

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 1/24/2023 at 7:46 PM, Lazyboy said:

 

Tidbits in a single installment of an ongoing story don't necessarily have anything to do with that specific installment. 

But in 180 they do.  The "Weapon X" mentioned early in the story is Wolverine.  He calls himself that later in the book.  And it becomes a bigger deal later in the X-Men 109, 120, 121, etc.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:03 PM, sfcityduck said:

But in 180 they do.  The "Weapon X" mentioned early in the story is Wolverine.  He calls himself that later in the book.  And it becomes a bigger deal later in the X-Men 109, 120, 121, etc.

Yes, marketing decided they needed that teaser to help sell the next issue. But the entirety of Wolverine's involvement in the 180-181 story is present in 181, including the repeated teaser.

[Readcomix]

The first appearance of Wolverine is Hulk #180 through #182. That story is his entire first appearance. The bulk of the story is in 181, which makes good sense as to why it has emerged as the priciest of the three parts. 180 is the big cliffhanger-style intro, so it’s makes sense as 2nd of the three. 182 is the last bit that completes the story before moving on to another story in the bulk of that issue. Makes sense both that it is pricier than surrounding run books and less than the other two.

As a storytelling medium, this makes perfect sense. For collectors who came into the hobby for reasons other than those who started out as readers, I can see where they might come up with questions phrased, “But isn’t #180 the true first appearance?” 

[Lazyboy]

On 1/24/2023 at 9:59 PM, sfcityduck said:

I didn't give any thought to the figure lurking in the dark corner of the final panel.  

But that panel is nothing like the last page of Hulk 180.

Correct. One is a blatant teaser, the other is light foreshadowing.

[sfcityduck]

On 1/24/2023 at 6:59 PM, Lazyboy said:

The question I asked was whether it was surprising 40+ years ago, long before CGC was even an idea, that Hulk 181 was worth more than 180, because it was. You're still trying to claim that 180 was on top.

Forget whatever numbers Bob decided to put in his book. How about actual prices from a dealer at the time?

Chuck's ads helped me complete my X-Men run.  But, his pricing was idiosyncratic. And it varied wildly.  Check out another ad of his with the same expiration date:

Micronauts 1 was twice the price of 181. 180 and 182 weren't broken out yet.  181 was only a $1 buck over $180.  And I can assure you that he was probably on the cutting edge of pricing 181 over 180.  But he could be a trend setter.  After all he was the guy who duped the OPG and fandom generally with the whole "limited distribution" lie about Conan 3 (I think).

[sfcityduck]

On 1/24/2023 at 8:11 PM, Readcomix said:

The first appearance of Wolverine is Hulk #180 through #182. That story is his entire first appearance. The bulk of the story is in 181, which makes good sense as to why it has emerged as the priciest of the three parts. 180 is the big cliffhanger-style intro, so it’s makes sense as 2nd of the three. 182 is the last bit that completes the story before moving on to another story in the bulk of that issue. Makes sense both that it is pricier than surrounding run books and less than the other two.

As a storytelling medium, this makes perfect sense. For collectors who came into the hobby for reasons other than those who started out as readers, I can see where they might come up with questions phrased, “But isn’t #180 the true first appearance?” 

There's really nothing surprising here as long as you realize that covers matter more than first appearances in the current CGC driven market.  A bad cover depresses the value of a first appearance.  Just ask Doctor Strange and Wonder Woman and a host of other characters.  

But the first appearance is still the first appearance.  And folks who want to create new marketing terms like "first full appearance" are just engaging in or feeding puffery designed to swell prices not expand knowledge.

[Readcomix]

On 1/24/2023 at 9:54 PM, MAR1979 said:

Avengers 181 - Lang is merely icing on the cake.  Cover is Stone Classic, the Crown Jewel of Perez Avengers covers. Not to mention a full page Byrne splash with the same cover imagery.   For many it is the key Avengers issue of their comics generation in this case the children readers of 1978-1982.  Back then a generation of comic readers was approx 4 years. 

So yes agreed Overrated as 1st Lang, but Underrated as a generational Avengers cover and story.

I’ve got to agree with you and add a tidbit - 181 was such an impactful story because it was the big transition from the team coming off the great Korvac saga of #167-177. 181 wrapped things up for the large previous cast and set the stage for the next great run. (It played the same role, albeit to a much lesser extent, that X-Men #94 played for the transition to the new X-Men as an ongoing series. If you were reading off the racks as I was in 1975 and reading those X-Men reprints and then GSX 1 and 94 come along, you understand their twin significance as keys. As someone else said, GSX 1 is to AF15 as 94 is to ASM 1. X94 today is underrated as a key, not overrated. The first apps are in GSX 1 but the new team really forms and kicks off in 94. Chocolate and peanut butter.)

Anyway, Avengers was my first read every month during that saga, and 177 was mind-blowing to grade school me. I’m a Marvel fan minority in that I liked Shooter/Perez Avengers more than Claremont/Byrne X-Men (which I really enjoyed too, but I was always an Avengers first kid.)