Newsstand editions question! (not the one you think it is...probably) 2 2

[Nschenks]

Wasn't sure exactly where to post this topic, but figured this mostly applies to moderns, at least in the instances I'm curious about. My question is this: I know there's a lot out there about newsstands becoming rarer and rarer over time, but I'm more curious to know if individual books/titles reflect this rarity/curve or if there is a lot of variation from book to book?

Take, for example, the Batman Beyond limited series from 1999. According to all those lovely graphs available online, estimates for industry-wide newsstand distribution (or perhaps just Marvel/DC...they don't always say) put the NS % around 5-10% during this time. I realize these are just guesses and projections, but let's just say for the sake of this exercise that the overall percentage of DC newsstands at that time in 1999 was 8%. Would this 8% be reflected in each title printed for newsstands, or would certain books have more aggressive ratios? I use Batman Beyond as an example because it's a more kid-friendly book aimed at a younger audience, an audience who may have watched the show but perhaps don't collect comics. Could a book like this have something like a 70/30 direct/newsstand ratio (more books in bookstores and whatnot where kids who had seen the show were more likely to stumble across them) even if the industry average at the time was 92/8? Or if it varied, would it be more like a few percentage points rather than big differences from book to book? Or neither?

Anyway, not sure if anyone would actually know this, but curious if there are any thoughts. Don't really know how comic book companies operated in regard to allocating newsstand copies for any given book.

[awakeintheashes]

I don't think there is a way to know this without having the documentation from one of the distributors or the documentation of orders placed and items returned from the the entity carrying the books. 

While we don't have hard numbers for newsstands, it's pretty easy to figure that as more big bookstores closed and less of them carried comics, the numbers for newsstands was going to go down. It's also not a stretch to say that newsstands were treated with less care than books at your LCS. However, I doubt we will ever know the numbers for each book, and guessing really just leads to eBay hucksters including numbers in their listing titles. 

[djzombi]

I subscribe to your theory - with zero proof/data - that more "kid-friendly", licensed, and/or more recognizable comics likely have higher newsstand print runs than other titles.  This would also apply to surviving copies, due to people purchasing fewer copies of the lesser-known titles, and thus many of them being returned to the distributor.  

For example, there are probably currently more surviving issues of Superman from the year 2000 than there are of, say, Aquaman (not to knock Aquaman LOL).  

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 2/14/2023 at 9:11 AM, awakeintheashes said:

I don't think there is a way to know this without having the documentation from one of the distributors or the documentation of orders placed and items returned from the the entity carrying the books. 

While we don't have hard numbers for newsstands, it's pretty easy to figure that as more big bookstores closed and less of them carried comics, the numbers for newsstands was going to go down. It's also not a stretch to say that newsstands were treated with less care than books at your LCS. However, I doubt we will ever know the numbers for each book, and guessing really just leads to eBay hucksters including numbers in their listing titles. 

This is pretty much my view. Barring someone who was on the inside actually sharing the facts, the best indicator is going to be gotten by examining the market and seeing what's available. Because regardless of the print numbers, unsold newsstand copies were sent back and destroyed. And examining the market is going to be a better way to establish a value than the print numbers anyway. If a million copies were printed but none are on the market, if one goes on the market, there are going to be more buyers interested than a book with a small percentage of newsstands printed, but is readily available on the open market.

[mr_highgrade]

When I was actively buying newsies in the 2000's I did notice that mainstream titles like X-men, Spidey, Bats, etc., were usually more abundant than their B-lister counterparts. I would always try to go to Hudson Newsstand (Usually at Grand Central NYC)  the day the books would arrive in order to snap up the best possible copies. Usually there wouldn't be more than 10 copies at best of any mainstream title. The other titles maybe 5 copies if that. 

[Nschenks]

On 2/14/2023 at 10:12 AM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

This is pretty much my view. Barring someone who was on the inside actually sharing the facts, the best indicator is going to be gotten by examining the market and seeing what's available. Because regardless of the print numbers, unsold newsstand copies were sent back and destroyed. And examining the market is going to be a better way to establish a value than the print numbers anyway. If a million copies were printed but none are on the market, if one goes on the market, there are going to be more buyers interested than a book with a small percentage of newsstands printed, but is readily available on the open market.

That makes sense to me. And I suppose even if a title had a relatively larger newsstand run compared to others at the time, it A.) probably wouldn't be significantly higher than other titles if the industry strategy was to phase out NS copies anyway; and B.) wouldn't change that fact a certain percentage of those NS copies would still be destroyed, battered, or returned. Even if a kid-friendly title had a higher NS distribution, I suppose it would reason that if more kids bought a newsstand copy--particularly kids who weren't active collectors--those copies would likely not be well-taken-care-of (or, if you look at it from a POV of buying for pure-enjoyment..they would be well-taken-care-of lol).

But yeah, Just a quick look at GoCollect for BB1 reveals something like a 50-1 direct/newsstand ratio in terms of logged sales, while CBCS census is something like 10-1 (and more skewed into the higher grades, though the sample size is rather small). And I suppose like any comic, rarity is not as relevant as demand. But if you have both...

Thanks for the input y'all! And if any insiders know about book-to-book NS distribution practices, I'd still be curious to know. Not for specific books, but just in general if comic companies had 'NS strategies' so-to-speak and gave certain books significantly higher newsstand runs compared to others.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Nsschenks

[Nschenks]

On a separate note, I also wonder if slabbed NS sales lag behind slabbed direct sales of the same book because they are, in many cases, priced much higher...perhaps the NS market outside of Spidey and X-Men and certain other books is too niche? For example, I count about 20 slabbed NS Batman Adventures #12 listed as BIN on eBay right now, compared to maybe 150-200 (didn't do a full count but looks to be something in that range). Even at the high estimate, that 10-1 ratio is pretty far behind the closer than 50-1 ratio for actual slabbed sales that GoCollect shows (4097-125).

Anyway, just random speculation on my part, but thought it was interesting. Would be curious if sales of more popular NS titles have a sell-rate that more closely reflects the rate of total listings.

[Lazyboy]

On 2/14/2023 at 12:58 AM, Nsschenks said:

Wasn't sure exactly where to post this topic, but figured this mostly applies to moderns, at least in the instances I'm curious about. My question is this: I know there's a lot out there about newsstands becoming rarer and rarer over time, but I'm more curious to know if individual books/titles reflect this rarity/curve or if there is a lot of variation from book to book?

There is definitely variation from title to title and even issue to issue.

On 2/14/2023 at 12:58 AM, Nsschenks said:

Take, for example, the Batman Beyond limited series from 1999. According to all those lovely graphs available online, estimates for industry-wide newsstand distribution (or perhaps just Marvel/DC...they don't always say) put the NS % around 5-10% during this time. I realize these are just guesses and projections

Then you don't realize the truth: they're lies, just complete fabrications.

On 2/14/2023 at 12:58 AM, Nsschenks said:

, but let's just say for the sake of this exercise that the overall percentage of DC newsstands at that time in 1999 was 8%.

No.

On 2/14/2023 at 12:58 AM, Nsschenks said:

Would this 8% be reflected in each title printed for newsstands, or would certain books have more aggressive ratios? I use Batman Beyond as an example because it's a more kid-friendly book aimed at a younger audience, an audience who may have watched the show but perhaps don't collect comics. Could a book like this have something like a 70/30 direct/newsstand ratio (more books in bookstores and whatnot where kids who had seen the show were more likely to stumble across them) even if the industry average at the time was 92/8? Or if it varied, would it be more like a few percentage points rather than big differences from book to book? Or neither?

Anyway, not sure if anyone would actually know this, but curious if there are any thoughts. Don't really know how comic book companies operated in regard to allocating newsstand copies for any given book.

There were most likely some titles that sold as well or better through the newsstand channel, but they were definitely not the top (overall/direct) sellers.

[Lazyboy]

On 2/14/2023 at 9:12 AM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

This is pretty much my view. Barring someone who was on the inside actually sharing the facts, the best indicator is going to be gotten by examining the market and seeing what's available. Because regardless of the print numbers, unsold newsstand copies were sent back and destroyed. And examining the market is going to be a better way to establish a value than the print numbers anyway. If a million copies were printed but none are on the market, if one goes on the market, there are going to be more buyers interested than a book with a small percentage of newsstands printed, but is readily available on the open market.

But nobody can truly examine the market, only the small portion of the market that's highly visible and any smaller portion available to them.

[valiantman]

October 2021 analysis: https://comics.gpanalysis.com/news/2021/newsstand-direct-edition-data-where-gpanalysis-is-leading-the-way

[valiantman]

On 2/14/2023 at 6:23 PM, Lazyboy said:

But nobody can truly examine the market, only the small portion of the market that's highly visible and any smaller portion available to them.

Nobody can truly examine the world population either, but if all signs point to China being significantly larger than Belgium, for decades, it probably isn't even close.

[Lazyboy]

On 2/14/2023 at 8:44 PM, valiantman said:

Nobody can truly examine the world population either, but if all signs point to China being significantly larger than Belgium, for decades, it probably isn't even close.

I have no idea what you think you're responding to or what point you're trying to make.

No country's population fluctuates, both up and down, as much as what is available in the highly visible comics market. Not even close.

[Nschenks]

On 2/14/2023 at 7:17 PM, Lazyboy said:

Then you don't realize the truth: they're lies, just complete fabrications.

Err...how do you know them to be complete fabrications? I mean, it seems to be pretty much true (and from what I can tell, backed up by industry sources) that both DC and Marvel did phase out newsstands, so it stands to reason that they would reduce in number over time until both at 0% in 2017 and 2013 respectively. So I don't understand this can be a "complete fabrication". Also, from what I can tell, they are industry-wide (or at least Marvel-wide) "estimations" and "projections", so it's kinda hard to say outright that they are lies. Estimations/projections never claimed to be 100% accurate--they're just best guesses based on available data.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Nsschenks

[Nschenks]

On 2/14/2023 at 7:17 PM, Lazyboy said:

No.

Not really sure where the hostility/push-back is coming from. "For the sake of this exercise" means I'm just throwing out a number--it doesn't have to be right or even accurate. It's a thought exercise. An example. A projection.

Seems like bringing up newsstands on comic forums is probably just a bad idea, so maybe I'll just step out now lol. Was hoping for some insight, not someone just saying "no" and "lies" and not providing any actual counterpoint. Anyway, thanks for your input, regardless.

If anyone else knows more/has any thoughts, I'm still curious to hear though!

Edited February 15, 2023 by Nsschenks

[Pittsburgh]

Hi Nsschenks!

As a newsstand collector, it is safe to say that newsstands are harder to find, definitely in high grade when compared to Direct and especially now.  However, attaching percentages and print runs (I realize this was not done) to newsies is, unfortunately, pointless.  While "guesstimations" are valid attempts, they should not be attached to any eBay/market listings (I also realize that this was not part of your initial inquiry).

Lazyboy is not wrong, but he definitely has a vibe that does not gel well with conversations about newsstands.  That could be (just my opinion) that this very subjective information has been an on-going topic for some time now. 

There are a couple of boardies (valiantman and paqart) with well thought out ideas about newsstand percentages, but at the end of the day, they are well researched guesses.  I side with them with the information they provide while being acutely aware that there is zero, hard evidence about these numbers.  Those boardies have put in some serious effort to research and have provided this information in an attempt to bring some clarity to the "newsstand percentage" debate.  One boardie is a hard no but does not have to prove that because no authentic, factual evidence is available.  Lazyboy will always appear in a modern newsstand discussion to provide his input (as this is a public comic forum), but it will always read the same.  No harm in seeing both sides of the information provided.

For me, I will always buy the newsstand if in similar condition and price (or a little higher) than the Direct.  That might explain my affinity for newsstand, foreign editions, Kickstarters and additional prints (2nd, 3rd, etc) comics - lol.  Directs are mostly very boring in my opinion (but I do have them).  I try to collect mostly outside the box and I think newsstands fit that niche. 

Good luck with the hunt!

Edited February 15, 2023 by Pittsburgh

[Nschenks]

On 2/15/2023 at 9:45 AM, Pittsburgh said:

Hi Nsschenks!

As a newsstand collector, it is safe to say that newsstands are harder to find, definitely in high grade when compared to Direct and especially now.  However, attaching percentages and print runs (I realize this was not done) to newsies is, unfortunately, pointless.  While "guesstimations" are valid attempts, they should not be attached to any eBay/market listings (I also realize that this was not part of your initial inquiry).

Lazyboy is not wrong, but he definitely has a vibe that does not gel well with conversations about newsstands.  That could be (just my opinion) that this very subjective information has been an on-going topic for some time now. 

There are a couple of boardies (valiantman and paqart) with well thought out ideas about newsstand percentages, but at the end of the day, they are well researched guesses.  I side with them with the information they provide while being acutely aware that there is zero, hard evidence about these numbers.  Those boardies have put in some serious effort to research and have provided this information in an attempt to bring some clarity to the "newsstand percentage" debate.  One boardie is a hard no but does not have to prove that because no authentic, factual evidence is available.  Lazyboy will always appear in a modern newsstand discussion to provide his input (as this is a public comic forum), but it will always read the same.  No harm in seeing both sides of the information provided.

For me, I will always buy the newsstand if in similar condition and price (or a little higher) than the Direct.  That might explain my affinity for newsstand, foreign editions, Kickstarters and additional prints (2nd, 3rd, etc) comics - lol.  Directs are mostly very boring in my opinion (but I do have them).  I try to collect mostly outside the box and I think newsstands fit that niche. 

Good luck with the hunt!

Thanks for the cordial reply!

I suppose I’m just kind of frustrated because my initial question didn’t really have to do with overall rarity or actual percentages of newsstands. I wasn’t seeking hard numbers or validation for eBay listings. I don’t collect newsstands, and I’m not a speculator. I just happened to pickup a full run of the BB miniseries in NS recently for my collection (not with the intention of reselling) and the wheels started turning, which lead to my question.

To be called ignorant is also kind a shot, when in fact I dug a lot into the the newsstand debate before I even posted. I found a lot of information, but what I did not find was much (if any) information on the question that I posed, which generally centered on industry newsstand strategies from book to book and whether or not the newsstand distributions varied wildly or only a little depending on title (thus, the kid-oriented book based on a show example). I know there isn’t hard evidence, but at the same time there are people who have been in and around the industry for a long time who might at least be privy to some insight there.

Instead, I get told the whole newsstand ‘debate’ is a lie, I’m ignorant, and opinions are posted as fact, essentially hijacking the entire topic. You can imagine that’s not exactly a welcome I’d expect in what I thought would be an interesting discussion about a part of the newsstand topic I haven’t seen touched on much.

I knew the newsstand/direct topic was a sensitive one. I tried to broach it in a neutral manner as someone not tied to the speculating world. I suppose you live and you learn? I realize this is a public forum, though, and perhaps should have put a little more thought into how long-time users with very dug-in opinions might respond.

Anyway, thank you again for your reply. I appreciate it. I will likely continue to peruse and post on CGC forums, because in general I’ve gotten good vibes from the community.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Nsschenks

[valiantman]

On 2/14/2023 at 9:06 PM, Lazyboy said:

I have no idea what you think you're responding to or what point you're trying to make.

No country's population fluctuates, both up and down, as much as what is available in the highly visible comics market. Not even close.

There's no reason to believe that a book which has been about 15% newsstand in the "highly visible comics market" for 20 years would be significantly different than 15% in the population. Your objections never have any evidence... you always just throw in a comment that's baseless, like "hang on a minute here, we can't know about all those books that aren't in the market." 

That's like saying "hang on a minute here, we can't know that there aren't millions of the same kinds of fish on dry ground just because every fish in the highly visible fish market happens to be from a source of water."

Edited February 15, 2023 by valiantman

[BCR]

90s 10%, 00’s 5% and 10’s 1-3% is the rule of thumb. 
 

No reason to break your brain too much beyond that.

[divad]

On 2/14/2023 at 4:23 PM, Lazyboy said:

unsold newsstand copies were sent back and destroyed.

or not. 

[divad]

On 2/14/2023 at 6:43 PM, valiantman said:

October 2021 analysis: https://comics.gpanalysis.com/news/2021/newsstand-direct-edition-data-where-gpanalysis-is-leading-the-way

But I can't get by their first "fact": "Before the introduction of the direct market in the late-1970s, every comic book was a newsstand edition." 

Late 1970's is the best they could do???