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Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures!
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Started by Prince Namor,

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Journey Into Mystery #90 - But there were other stories in the issue as well... maybe THEY would be better. Here's another Lee and Ditko 'brain teaser', though this one is a bit more brain NUMBING...

The Cuban Missile Crisis had just happened in October of the previous year - right about the time this was being written, so the idea I guess is topical if the outcome is somewhat silly. 

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Prince Namor

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Here's the actual letter Lee sent to Bails, used in the Lee vs Kirby case... a couple of points that Stuf Said left out...

"Al would be the first to admit it's not his cup of tea, although if he HADN'T consented to draw the story, we'd probably have missed an issue. "No loss" you might say -- but if ever we DO miss an ish, it involves all sorts of red tape with the Post Office, penalty fees, etc."

WOW. Talk about not having your artists back...

"As for Ditko's art, you're right on most counts. But again, the pressure of deadlines has to be our excuse. You can't possibly imagine how rushed we are."

WOW. And Ditko too? 'We'd never use Ditko on Kirby story, except we're so rushed we have to!'

That's pretty sad...

Stan Lee to Jerry Bails 01:09:63jpg.jpg

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Dr. Haydn

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On 2/18/2023 at 3:28 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Incredible Hulk #6

This is a pet peeve of mine that shows how out of synch the 'writer' is with the artist... you really could've done this all in one panel, but Ditko's just not sure how much Stan has in dialogue to write in...

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And what's with the Hulk's feet on the cover???

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Decompressed storytelling in 1963! Stan and Steve were ahead of their time!

In all seriousness, I don't mind the pacing here. However, it surely needed more dramatic dialogue for the villain's reveal and subsequent closeup to work. (For instance: 'I am--the METAL MASTER, from the planet Astra! I have come from many galaxies away to CONQUER your worthless planet and enslave your people!') Had Stan already given up on the book?

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Dr. Haydn

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On 2/18/2023 at 10:55 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Journey Into Mystery #90 - But there were other stories in the issue as well... maybe THEY would be better. Here's another Lee and Ditko 'brain teaser', though this one is a bit more brain NUMBING...

The Cuban Missile Crisis had just happened in October of the previous year - right about the time this was being written, so the idea I guess is topical if the outcome is somewhat silly. 

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Why do all of Ditko's elderly people look like Aunt May and Uncle Ben?

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Zonker

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Kirby, who'd been knocking out over 86-116 pages a month is suddenly dropped to 43-49?

And notice again, how Stan writes that:

At present he will concentrate on FF and our new war mag, Sgt. Fury—as well as pinch-hitting for other features if and when needed. AND he does almost all of our covers, of course.”

That's someone being DEMOTED. Stan is not happy because Jack wants writing/plotting CREDIT. This is how Stan deals with those who want credit and/or pay for something that HE wants. As the little boss for Martin Goodman, his relative by marriage, it is HE who rules.

It is easier for me to believe that Kirby's output dropped as a result of some sort of punishment from Stan than that Kirby voluntarily quit assignments because he was offended to see Larry Lieber's name credited.  (thumbsu   But do you have some reference for Kirby requesting a writing credit this early?  I thought that came later?

Also, the point is not that Kirby would need 7 months to produce 4 books.  Instead, it seems to me reasonable that:

a) while continuing his 1962 pace was certainly possible, his quote in Wyman's book suggests to me that 1962 pace wasn't preferrable:  "...I was working very hard."
b) he wasn't idle during the creation of X-Men, Sgt. Fury, The Avengers & the FF Annual- he would be conceptualizing those projects at the same time as keeping up with those 43-49 new pages per month.  The FF Annual might have been just another (extra-long) book, but the others were new series that Kirby possibly worked out multiple storylines before launch.  Isn't there a theory out there that the first few issues of Ditko's Amazing Spider-Man are actually based on scenarios contained in Kirby's ultimately rejected Spiderman proposal?
c) your data shows July 1963 was a huge month even by Kirby standards, 148 pages.  Some of that July output must have been produced beforehand.

Edited by Zonker
"requesting" not "wanting"-- so that Stan knew about it....
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Prince Namor

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On 2/18/2023 at 12:41 PM, Zonker said:

It is easier for me to believe that Kirby's output dropped as a result of some sort of punishment from Stan than that Kirby voluntarily quit assignments because he was offended to see Larry Lieber's name credited.  (thumbsu   But do you have some reference for Kirby wanting a writing credit this early?  I thought that came later?

Kirby spent 20 years writing his own stories. Joe Simon certainly gave him some input, but 100% of people who speak about working with the two of them all say the same things - Joe occasionally gave an idea here and there - Jack was a constant fountain of ideas. Joe was his business partner, so he had no issues with the two signing their names together.

But at the end of Mainline studios, Jack had spent his entire savings to make things work and Simon moved from the modest house across the street from the Kirby family on Congress Ave. (where the Kirbys lived until 1969) to a "huge house" in Westbury one of the wealthiest communities in the United States and still had money to add a bunch of pretentious pillars to the front of the house.

Some here have said Simon's wife was a real estate agent - that is NOT what Simon has said - Simon claims his wife had an EYE for real estate. Roz Kirby said in an interview "We lost everything" , so it seems a bit odd that Simon moved into a much more upscale part of Long Island at that time and shortly thereafter - as reported by Simon, moved again to a mansion with "eight bathrooms" ..."on three acres in Stony Brook. It sat on a cliff with stone steps leading down to the beach."

Kirby already had a bad taste in his mouth for partnerships. He tried and gave up immediately with working with Joe Simon as freelance at Archie.

So he spends 4 years writing and drawing monster stories without anyone messing with him - the stories SELL books and keep Marvel afloat... 

And then Stan forces his hand with a 'partnership' so that Kirby can finally launch superheroes again...

But as things quickly expand... suddenly Larry Lieber is getting -script credit? And Stan is making changes to Jack's stories?

There's very few places Kirby COULD say anything about it... but in a fanzine as early as 1968 someone directly asked him in an interview:

EXCELSIOR: Do you plot the Fantastic Four stories by drawing the basic story and then having Stan write the dialogue?
JACK: This is Stanley’s editorial policy. As a Marvel artist, I carry it out.

FROM Interview originally published in Excelsior #1, 1968

 

Kirby's first appeasement with credit would come just a few months later on the 2nd installment of the Tales of Asgard stories, where Stan would change the credit box to 'By Stan Lee & Jack Kirby'. Stan would call his bluff for the remainder of the decade, and Jack, seeing what happened with Steve Ditko, would quietly seethe that entire time.

But make no mistake... Kirby was aware he was being jerked around as early as 1962. 

On 2/18/2023 at 12:41 PM, Zonker said:

Also, the point is not that Kirby would need 7 months to produce 4 books.  Instead, it seems to me reasonable that:

a) while continuing his 1962 pace was certainly possible, his quote in Wyman's book suggests to me that 1962 pace wasn't preferrable:  "...I was working very hard."
b) he wasn't idle during the creation of X-Men, Sgt. Fury, The Avengers & the FF Annual- he would be conceptualizing those projects at the same time as keeping up with those 43-49 new pages per month.  The FF Annual might have been just another (extra-long) book, but the others were new series that Kirby possibly worked out multiple storylines before launch. 

Kirby's way of conceptualizing is to write and draw pages. Kirby could do up to 5 pages a day. He would work every day. That's just who he was. So a slower month for him would be 2.5 pages a day. That's 75 pages. 

Why would you waste a guy like Kirby - bursting with ideas - who can do 75 pages a month in his sleep - with only 43 pages in a month - one THIRD of those going to Love Romances, a book set to be cancelled in a few months?

No. 

On 2/18/2023 at 12:41 PM, Zonker said:

Isn't there a theory out there that the first few issues of Ditko's Amazing Spider-Man are actually based on scenarios contained in Kirby's ultimately rejected Spiderman proposal?

Not that I'm aware of. If there is, it's based upon the idea that some of the Spider-man, stripped down synopsis' sound amazingly close to what would be a stripped down synopsis' of his first few Private Strong (The Shield) stories... Stan Taylor: The second and third Spider-man stories have plot elements taken directly from the second and third Shield stories. The second Shield story has him tracking down a Red spy, attempting to steal scientific secrets. The villain tries to escape in a submarine and the Shield has to put the sub out of commission. Compare this to the basic plot of the Chameleon story. A Red spy bent on stealing scientific secrets tries to escape in a submarine that Spidey puts out of commission.

More on that later....

On 2/18/2023 at 12:41 PM, Zonker said:

c) your data shows July 1963 was a huge month even by Kirby standards, 148 pages.  Some of that July output must have been produced beforehand.

Well of course. But that's 471 pages over 7 months. That's 67 pages a month on average. That's 2.23 a day. That's UNDER a slow pace for Kirby. And he wastes his time doing 36 pages of Love Romances during that time. 

No. Just doesn't add up. 

When Stan talks about how pressed they are to get work done and how difficult it is to get things done - he's not UNDER utilizing Kirby for any reason other than he's MAD at him and has to keep him in line. 

The same way he'd keep Doctor Strange off the cover of Strange Tales for Ditko's entire run of it.

He's being punished in the only way Stan knows how to punish him. Cut his pages, and slowly work him back in. 

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Dr. Haydn

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On 2/18/2023 at 11:41 AM, Zonker said:

It is easier for me to believe that Kirby's output dropped as a result of some sort of punishment from Stan than that Kirby voluntarily quit assignments because he was offended to see Larry Lieber's name credited.  (thumbsu   But do you have some reference for Kirby wanting a writing credit this early?  I thought that came later?

Also, the point is not that Kirby would need 7 months to produce 4 books.  Instead, it seems to me reasonable that:

a) while continuing his 1962 pace was certainly possible, his quote in Wyman's book suggests to me that 1962 pace wasn't preferrable:  "...I was working very hard."
b) he wasn't idle during the creation of X-Men, Sgt. Fury, The Avengers & the FF Annual- he would be conceptualizing those projects at the same time as keeping up with those 43-49 new pages per month.  The FF Annual might have been just another (extra-long) book, but the others were new series that Kirby possibly worked out multiple storylines before launch.  Isn't there a theory out there that the first few issues of Ditko's Amazing Spider-Man are actually based on scenarios contained in Kirby's ultimately rejected Spiderman proposal?
c) your data shows July 1963 was a huge month even by Kirby standards, 148 pages.  Some of that July output must have been produced beforehand.

"While continuing his 1962 pace was certainly possible, his quote in Wyman's book suggests to me that 1962 pace wasn't preferrable:  "...I was working very hard."

True. Speaking for myself, I can work my butt off if I feel my efforts are truly appreciated. If they aren't, or if there's needless conflict, well...not so much.

At this stage, Marvel's "first wave" of new titles was done, with mixed results. We know that Marvel would eventually become the industry leader, but no one expected that in early 1963. FF was a success, and likely the newly published Spider-man, but the other titles had only a modest improvement in sales, at best--still far behind DC and Archie.

Did Stan withhold work from Jack to teach him a lesson, or did Jack voluntarily back away from what he saw as a bad situation? Those seem to me to be the two most logical conclusions (or maybe there's an overlap between the two).

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Prince Namor

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On 2/18/2023 at 1:55 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

"While continuing his 1962 pace was certainly possible, his quote in Wyman's book suggests to me that 1962 pace wasn't preferrable:  "...I was working very hard."

True. Speaking for myself, I can work my butt off if I feel my efforts are truly appreciated. If they aren't, or if there's needless conflict, well...not so much.

At this stage, Marvel's "first wave" of new titles was done, with mixed results. We know that Marvel would eventually become the industry leader, but no one expected that in early 1963. FF was a success, and likely the newly published Spider-man, but the other titles had only a modest improvement in sales, at best--still far behind DC and Archie.

Did Stan withhold work from Jack to teach him a lesson, or did Jack voluntarily back away from what he saw as a bad situation? Those seem to me to be the two most logical conclusions (or maybe there's an overlap between the two).

I think the simplest explanation is Jack confronted him about it - both against Larry as well as the Hulk story, and then Stan punished him for it. That fits Stan's pattern of behavior throughout the Silver Age.

He was a bigger jerk in the 50's... according to some... like Harvey Kurtzman.

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Dr. Haydn

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On 2/18/2023 at 1:22 PM, Prince Namor said:

I think the simplest explanation is Jack confronted him about it - both against Larry as well as the Hulk story, and then Stan punished him for it. That fits Stan's pattern of behavior throughout the Silver Age.

He was a bigger jerk in the 50's... according to some... like Harvey Kurtzman.

Yeah--I guess you're referencing when Lee returned Kurtzman's "Hey! Look!" pages, after drawing a big X in grease pencil across them. (I think that would have been around 1950, before Kurtzman became an EC mainstay.)

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Dr. Haydn

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On 2/18/2023 at 4:46 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Tales to Astonish #42 - Stan's '--script'??? and Ditko's artwork...

Story THREE:

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The robot somewhat resembles the new design for Iron Man's armor (also by Ditko!), which will be debuting in a few months.

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Dr. Haydn

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On 2/19/2023 at 9:13 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Fantastic Four #13 - Cover by Jack Kirby. Listed as Story: Stan Lee Art: Jack Kirby Inking: S. Ditko!, but this is very much a Kirby driven story. 

Part FOUR:

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A rare combination of Stan, Jack, and Steve! I must admit, Ditko's inks don't always work for me, though. He's great on the apes and alien worlds (and creatures), but a bit sparse on the human characters. His closeups of the FF members remind me of John Byrne's "back to basics" art style from the early 1980s.

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