Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures! 3 3

[Dr. Haydn]

I like panel 4. Don Blake was a "lame doctor" when Larry Lieber was scripting. In this story, with a more literate, experienced scripter, he's now a "handicapped physician." A much better turn of phrase, don't you think?

[Dr. Haydn]

On 3/1/2023 at 8:54 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

I like panel 4. Don Blake was a "lame doctor" when Larry Lieber was scripting. In this story, with a more literate, experienced scripter, he's now a "handicapped physician." A much better turn of phrase, don't you think?

Thor's dialogue still seems off model. He sounds like 1940s Superman in a joking mood, or maybe the "Big Red Cheese."

[Prince Namor]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:55 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Thor's dialogue still seems off model. He sounds like 1940s Superman in a joking mood, or maybe the "Big Red Cheese."

Yep. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1963

With everything we've seen and know. Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #1, is a Jack Kirby story, concept, semi-autobiographical experience brought to life - though it says Story: Stan Lee, I doubt he had anything more than a changing of dialogue here and there...

Inked by D. Ayers with lettering by Art Simek.

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1963

Sgt. Fury #1

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1963

Sgt. Fury #1

Extra + AD:

[Dr. Haydn]

Sgt Fury #1. So, it's "commandos" on the cover, "commandoes" on the splash page, and "commandos" again on the following double page spread. Smilin' Stan was sure earning his money as editor!

Edited March 2, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
left text as is.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1963

Sgt. Fury #1 - Stan Lee of course says it was all HIS idea - [1972] “I told [Martin Goodman] to think of the worst subject he could and we would sell it with realism. He picked war.”

November 20, 1972: The News Journal (Wilmington, DE) article “King of the Comic Books,” by Jim Panyard, Newark Bureau

 

But John Severin remembers it differently: 

“Though Jack and I rarely saw one another whilst ‘S.H.I.E.L.D.’ was being produced [in mid-1965], I do recall a bit earlier when... Jack wanted to know if I’d be interested in syndication. He said we could be partners on a -script idea he had. The story would be set in Europe during WWII; the hero would be a tough, cigar-smoking Sergeant with a squad of oddball G.I.s—sort of an adult Boy Commandos.

“I... told him I wasn’t really interested in newspaper strips... and Jack left, heading towards Marvel and Stan Lee.” Aug. 1999: John Severin interview by Jim Amash for Jack Kirby Collector #25

 

And Kirby: “I was asked to do Sgt. Fury. I did it from my own experiences. I had London look like London. I felt that it should be done that way; not glamorized, but real. In other words, I was out to show London during the Blitz, and I showed London during the Blitz. When I showed a German gun, I showed a German gun. I felt that kind of strip should be done real.

“...I wrote that... It was a composite of lots of things, lots of my own experiences, which I’m going to say nothing about. It was terrible.”
August 1–3, 1970: San Diego’s Golden State Comic Con (San Diego, California)

[Prince Namor]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:08 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Sgt Fury #1. So, it's "commandos" on the cover, "commandoes" on the splash page, and "commandos" again on the following double page spread. Smilin' Stan was sure earning his money as editor!

Almost as bad as how often he misspelled 'Pharaoh'!

Edited March 2, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Dr. Haydn]

On 3/1/2023 at 8:11 PM, Prince Namor said:

Almost as bad as how often he misspelled 'Pharaoh'. 

I started to look at the German words--"feuhrer" and its compound forms are wrong, along with "zehr gut," "schweinehund" and "dumkopf." The last term is particularly appropriate for the editor that missed all of this!

Edited March 2, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
correcting an error

[Zonker]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:09 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1963

Sgt. Fury #1 - Stan Lee of course says it was all HIS idea - [1972] “I told [Martin Goodman] to think of the worst subject he could and we would sell it with realism. He picked war.”

November 20, 1972: The News Journal (Wilmington, DE) article “King of the Comic Books,” by Jim Panyard, Newark Bureau

 

But John Severin remembers it differently: 

“Though Jack and I rarely saw one another whilst ‘S.H.I.E.L.D.’ was being produced [in mid-1965], I do recall a bit earlier when... Jack wanted to know if I’d be interested in syndication. He said we could be partners on a --script idea he had. The story would be set in Europe during WWII; the hero would be a tough, cigar-smoking Sergeant with a squad of oddball G.I.s—sort of an adult Boy Commandos.

“I... told him I wasn’t really interested in newspaper strips... and Jack left, heading towards Marvel and Stan Lee.” Aug. 1999: John Severin interview by Jim Amash for Jack Kirby Collector #25

 

And Kirby: “I was asked to do Sgt. Fury. I did it from my own experiences. I had London look like London. I felt that it should be done that way; not glamorized, but real. In other words, I was out to show London during the Blitz, and I showed London during the Blitz. When I showed a German gun, I showed a German gun. I felt that kind of strip should be done real.

“...I wrote that... It was a composite of lots of things, lots of my own experiences, which I’m going to say nothing about. It was terrible.”
August 1–3, 1970: San Diego’s Golden State Comic Con (San Diego, California)

All of these recollections are in conflict.  If Kirby already had this all worked out when he spoke with Severin, why would Kirby later say he was "asked to do Sgt. Fury?"  And I highly doubt Stan was bragging to Goodman that Stan could sell for him the "worst subject" Goodman could think of!  As a publisher, why would you even take the chance on something you thought going in was the "worst subject"?  

But we can kind of square all these recollections if Goodman in fact wanted to get a war book out given that DC seemed to have consistent success with their Big Five war books.  So maybe Goodman told Stan to make a war book, Stan turned to Kirby, who dusted off the earlier adult Boy Commandos idea he spoke about with Severin, and away they went. 

[Dr. Haydn]

Goodman flooded the market with war titles until the Atlas Implosion of 1957. Stan's assertion that war was "the worst subject" only half a decade later doesn't ring true.

[Prince Namor]

On 3/1/2023 at 10:52 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Goodman flooded the market with war titles until the Atlas Implosion of 1957. Stan's assertion that war was "the worst subject" only half a decade later doesn't ring true.

Exactly.

The truth is, the worst subject Stan could've added, he already had: Linda Carter, Student Nurse.

But in all seriousness, I don't believe Stan's 'Goodman said' stories in any way, shape, or form. They all sound like a LIE or as an add on to a lie. 

As an example:

Goodman says "NO one will read a book about spiders!" or "Teen Superheroes won't work" - YET they still did Spider-man.

In this instance, Goodman DECIDES to do war?

Lee puts this out there as an experienced BS artist - it makes people think a) HE was the mastermind behind everything (which we know is untrue - he had to rely on Kirby to bring him ideas) and b) he had to work it all out with Goodman first  (which we also know is untrue as Goodman was barely talking to him at the time). Goodman couldn't have cared LESS about the comics division at this point. He was still looking to sell. 

 

“I told [Martin Goodman] to think of the worst subject he could and we would sell it with realism. He picked war.”

Stan had already failed to keep Amazing Adult Fantasy going, had just had to cancel the Hulk, had recently canceled Linda Carter, Student Nurse, would cancel Love Romances next month - but was so cocky that he went to Goodman and said this??? And Goodman was so sure of Stan's genius that he agreed?

Give me a break. It's obvious BS. 

And as pointed out above, Marvel had done plenty of War books - they'd all been CANCELED. The last one was 'BATTLE' (which Kirby took over the last 7 issues of) that got the axe in January 1960, but at one time (as late as 1957 - just before the implosion) WAR was a huge part of their line-up*** and as late as June 1958 - 3 of the 16 titles they published over a two month period were WAR related - Battle, Marines in Battle, and Navy Combat.

Stan dabbled early, but by the mid to late 50's was writing stories for NONE of these comics. 

 

And Kirby saying "I was asked to do Sgt. Fury" isn't saying he was given it - that's just what Lee apologists see. We know Kirby did concept promo pieces for his ideas (many turned into later pin-ups) - the Sgt. Fury one appears as a double page spread in the first issue. At some point, Stan took that piece and said, "I want you to do this." 

Of course, he could never SAY that's what happened, it would show Jack as the creative force behind it. 

 

By the way - how was Stan - someone who couldn't be bothered to write an actual --script throughout his career, and had sat at a desk for his war time commitment in upstate New York - going to write about the realities of war, compared to Kirby who'd actually served on the FRONT LINES and had already done war stories?

 

And lastly... again look at the thought process behind their descriptions of how they came up with it. Lee's 'the worst subject' is bland and vague - Kirby's is SPECIFIC. Lee knows he has to be careful how he words his lie here because he is grossly under experienced in real world war action. It's ridiculously obvious. 

 

 

 

*** With the outbreak of the Korean War in 1950, Goodman HAD directed the comics division - which was popping at the time - to add war comics - they had 17 different titles by 1952 - By Mar/Apr 1957 they still had - Battle Action, Battle Front, Battle Ground, Combat Kelly, Combat Casey, Commando Adventures, G.I. Tales, Marines in Action, Marines at War, Marines in Battle, Navy Action, Navy Combat, Navy Tales, and War Comics. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1963

Tales to Astonish #44 - Kirby does an 18 page Ant-Man story - his first work on the character in a half a year. BUT... this is obviously just Kirby's rough pencils, inked by Don Heck... and the dialogue by 'H.E. Huntley' (Ernie Hart), based on a dumb Stan Lee plot, is almost as bad as Larry Lieber. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1963

Tales to Astonish #44 - "Go to the ant(s) thou sluggard!" is from Proverbs and is basically telling someone to stop being lazy and have the work ethic of the ant colony... How Stan allowed this is a bit perplexing... not that it's bad, it's just... not simplistic, which is the way Stan generally wanted his stories and dialogue done. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1963

Tales to Astonish #44 - "I don't know!"

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1963

Tales to Astonish #44 - Oy Vey!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1963

Tales to Astonish #44 - 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1963

Tales to Astonish #44 - 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1963

Kirby also does the cover for Gunsmoke Western #76, inked by D. Ayers