Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures! 3 3

[Dr. Haydn]

On 8/9/2023 at 3:17 PM, N e r V said:

My moneys on Ben Cooper in 1954…

 

https://nypost.com/2015/07/14/did-stan-lee-steal-spider-man-from-a-brooklyn-costume-shop/

 

I think this came up in an earlier part of this thread. Whether or not it was a source of inspiration, surely Ditko or Kirby saw this costume at some point, as Ben Cooper was a New York-based company. Plus, Kirby's two eldest children were the right age to be going door to door on Halloween.

[N e r V]

On 8/9/2023 at 1:23 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

I think this came up in an earlier part of this thread. Whether or not it was a source of inspiration, surely Ditko or Kirby saw this costume at some point, as Ben Cooper was a New York-based company. Plus, Kirby's two eldest children were the right age to be going door to door on Halloween.

We will never know for sure but that costume was popular as were many Ben Coopers so it would be surprising if they didn’t knowingly or unknowingly have been influenced by seeing it.

Edited August 9, 2023 by N e r V
Spelling

[N e r V]

I have a lot of original in the box Ben Coopers myself but still haven’t obtained one of those Spider-Man versions. They made them for a number of years with different variations.

[sfcityduck]

On 8/9/2023 at 9:37 AM, Prince Namor said:

It became a romance comic. Romita was essentially writing it, and that was what he knew best, from 7 years doing that at DC. BUT, he learned to do Action sequences, and that action was superb!

 

Not sure why you think Romita couldn't do action until he returned to Marvel in 1966. Romita was doing action sequences for Marvel back in 1951-1957 (genre books and superheroes), and Stan would have been very aware that Romita could draw:

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by sfcityduck

[Steven Valdez]

On 8/10/2023 at 6:23 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

I think this came up in an earlier part of this thread. Whether or not it was a source of inspiration, surely Ditko or Kirby saw this costume at some point, as Ben Cooper was a New York-based company. Plus, Kirby's two eldest children were the right age to be going door to door on Halloween.

It's even possible that Kirby WORKED for Ben Cooper circa 1954.

[Steven Valdez]

On 8/10/2023 at 9:05 AM, sfcityduck said:

Not sure why you think Romita couldn't do action until he returned to Marvel in 1966. Romita was doing action sequences for Marvel back in 1951-1957 (genre books and superheroes), and Stan would have been very aware that Romita could draw:

 

Looks like Frank Robbins there. Romita sure did improve over 15-20 years.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[sfcityduck]

On 8/9/2023 at 4:40 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Looks like Frank Robbins there. Romita sure did improve over 15-20 years.

The good ones all did.

[N e r V]

On 8/9/2023 at 4:40 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Looks like Frank Robbins there. Romita sure did improve over 15-20 years.

 

On 8/9/2023 at 4:50 PM, sfcityduck said:

The good ones all did.

Which is why it is so sad that Joe Maneely passed at 32 and Matt Baker 37. As well thought of each of them is we never saw their full potential happen. We can only imagine what might have been…

[lordbyroncomics]

In regards to the Spider-Man costume, remember that no less than a Stan Lee defender than Jim Shooter claimed to have seen Kirby's original and rejected Spider-Man pages in the 70s' and that it wasn't like Ditko's Spider-Man at all. He described him as much more Captain America like, which supports Ditko's recollection where he did a rough sketch of Kirby's Spider-Man costume in one of his self-published pamphlets. Shooter also remembered that the setup was different which supports Stan just giving a name and basic concept to the artist and letting them flesh out the details/plot since, if he had given the artists a -script, Kirby and Ditko's Spider-Men wouldn't have deviated so much. 

[N e r V]

John Buscema 1952 vs about 16 years later.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 8/9/2023 at 6:40 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Looks like Frank Robbins there. Romita sure did improve over 15-20 years.

When it comes to silver age Romita, I think of how beautifully he drew women. There was very little sign of that in his 1954 Cap run.

[Prince Namor]

On 8/10/2023 at 3:17 AM, N e r V said:

My moneys on Ben Cooper in 1954…

https://nypost.com/2015/07/14/did-stan-lee-steal-spider-man-from-a-brooklyn-costume-shop/

I know this was mostly for humorous effect but, if there are two sources of information I could find anymore contemptible than the New York Post teamed with John Cimino, I can't imagine it. There's some murky areas of that story... the one on the left is the one produced in 1954. The one on the right is the one produced AFTER the deal was struck with Marvel. They try and make it sound like there's some overlap, but I see no proof of that at all.

MY spider sense is telling me there's more sensationalism than story there, especially considering the sources. 

I don't doubt someone saw it, made an unconscious mental note but... it's mainly a WEB drawing. Anyone could do that...

Edited August 10, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

On 8/10/2023 at 8:31 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

When it comes to silver age Romita, I think of how beautifully he drew women. There was very little sign of that in his 1954 Cap run.

Man oh man, could he draw women! And once he learned the Kirby/Ditko way of action scenes, he had it all. 

[Prince Namor]

What about Ditko's side cover designs for Charlton in late 1957 to early 1958? These would only be used for a couple of months, but were created in late 1957...

[Prince Namor]

a web is a web...

[Prince Namor]

Dang, that's cool cover...

[Prince Namor]

Hmmm....

[jimjum12]

On 8/9/2023 at 8:11 PM, N e r V said:

 

Which is why it is so sad that Joe Maneely passed at 32 and Matt Baker 37. As well thought of each of them is we never saw their full potential happen. We can only imagine what might have been…

And with Maneely, had he survived, we could find out the truth about Lee at Atlas, and how he was able to get Stan to put down the flute and propellor beanie long enough to collaborate with him on at least one newspaper strip outside of Atlas, but wait, that would mean Stan DID do something and would shed a questionable light on this pesky narrative. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited August 10, 2023 by jimjum12

[N e r V]

On 8/9/2023 at 7:25 PM, Prince Namor said:

I know this was mostly for humorous effect but, if there are two sources of information I could find anymore contemptible than the New York Post teamed with John Cimino, I can't imagine it. There's some murky areas of that story... the one on the left is the one produced in 1954. The one on the right is the one produced AFTER the deal was struck with Marvel. They try and make it sound like there's some overlap, but I see no proof of that at all.

MY spider sense is telling me there's more sensationalism than story there, especially considering the sources. 

I don't doubt someone saw it, made an unconscious mental note but... it's mainly a WEB drawing. Anyone could do that...

Yes it wasn’t intended as a super serious remark. The story for whatever reason got picked up in a number of publications around 10 years ago for some reason. I just randomly grabbed a source for my post.

FYI, Both Ben Cooper and Marvel merchandise collectors have been aware of this earlier costume for decades. It’s not recent news just blew up for some reason.

Here’s a bit better article from 2012 with  examples of the costumes history along with your typical Steve Ditko letter reaction to it.

http://hero-envy.blogspot.com/2012/10/1963-ben-cooper-spider-man-halloween.html

 

My biggest grip is the press greatly increased its value…

 

[Steven Valdez]

On 8/10/2023 at 1:24 PM, N e r V said:

Yes it wasn’t intended as a super serious remark. The story for whatever reason got picked up in a number of publications around 10 years ago for some reason. I just randomly grabbed a source for my post.

FYI, Both Ben Cooper and Marvel merchandise collectors have been aware of this earlier costume for decades. It’s not recent news just blew up for some reason.

Here’s a bit better article from 2012 with  examples of the costumes history along with your typical Steve Ditko letter reaction to it.

http://hero-envy.blogspot.com/2012/10/1963-ben-cooper-spider-man-halloween.html

 

My biggest grip is the press greatly increased its value…

 

There were a couple of different pre-Marvel Ben Cooper Spider Man masks... this is the first and more intriguing version:

Edited August 10, 2023 by Steven Valdez