Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures! 3 3

[Prince Namor]

On 8/8/2023 at 8:25 PM, Zonker said:

I think part of the continuing fascination many of us have with the Kirby/Lee dynamic is that it is an example of what is almost an archetype across the history of innovation.  Think Wozniak/Jobs or-- somewhat differently-- Tesla/Edison (though those 2 were never actual collaborators):

One person grinds it out through a combination of genius and sheer force of will, while another person certainly contributes, but also has the personality and the savvy to focus on securing the funding, marketing the effort, building the myth, while effectively delegating out a lot of the detail.  One person is relatively unknown, while another person is a household name to this day.  This dynamic probably plays out more often than we know about in start-ups or university labs (by definition, the more-silent partner is relatively invisible!) 

Wozniak was recognized as a co-founder from the beginning, paid as such, and the money he made when he sold his stock after departing was enough to last a lifetime. 

[Zonker]

On 8/8/2023 at 9:50 AM, Prince Namor said:

No. Different time. The Implosion got rid of everyone who was staff and ran off almost anyone who was freelance.

At this point, Stan is, for the comics division, one of the only salaried people. Brodsky is salary.

It has been established as such for decades based upon many sources, and confirmed again during the Marvel vs Kirby trial.

Ok, so Kirby and Ditko had page rates agreed with Goodman for whatever-it-was-Jack-and-Steve-did.  And Lee had his own page rate for whatever-it-was-Stan-did.  Unfortunately nobody in those days had contracts, right?  So there was never any specificity about "In return for $XX a page, you will pencil from a complete -script, including such-and-such detail in your pencils sufficient for the inker to do his job, etc."  

Impossible to now know, but I would love to understand what Kirby's page rate around 1966 was compared to someone like Infantino at DC, who penciled from a full -script.  Or how Stan Lee's page rate as Goodman's "wordsmith" compared to that of Gardner Fox or John Broome, producing those full scripts. 

[sfcityduck]

On 8/8/2023 at 7:24 AM, Zonker said:

I once went through the Gardner Fox papers at U of Oregon.  What he submitted as a -script was not a “full--script” in the sense Alan Moore would do. The artists still had to make a lot of choices.  Which goes to the issue of the creative process and how much do you have to contribute to be a co-creator?  
 

if an artist is presented with a costume design and a plot and a writer does the dialogue is the artist a co-creator of the character who first appears in that story?  What about if all the artist provides is a costume design? Or what about if all the writer provides is the dialogue? What is enough?

Edited August 8, 2023 by sfcityduck

[Prince Namor]

On 8/8/2023 at 9:24 PM, Zonker said:

Ok, so Kirby and Ditko had page rates agreed with Goodman for whatever-it-was-Jack-and-Steve-did.  And Lee had his own page rate for whatever-it-was-Stan-did.  Unfortunately nobody in those days had contracts, right?  So there was never any specificity about "In return for $XX a page, you will pencil from a complete --script, including such-and-such detail in your pencils sufficient for the inker to do his job, etc."  

Impossible to now know, but I would love to understand what Kirby's page rate around 1966 was compared to someone like Infantino at DC, who penciled from a full --script.  Or how Stan Lee's page rate as Goodman's "wordsmith" compared to that of Gardner Fox or John Broome, producing those full scripts. 

I suspect that Kirby was paid for writing and pencils on his monster books, based upon his statements that Stan changed the dynamic because of money. He was making more than Stan at one point. AND, because we have ledgers of Don Heck's earnings provided by his family, we can see that Don Heck got paid $10 a page for pencils and $20 a page when he penciled and inked. That's really LOW.

Nothing for fleshing out stories. 

At the height of his time at Atlas, prior to the implosion, Romita speaks of making $44 a page for pencils (Atlas was apparently competitive at this time with DC), but then Stan started chopping his page rate each month down to $24 a page, before he quit. 

By the time Romita came back, DC was paying him $45 a page and Stan was offering $25 a page for him. Don Heck apparently got work because of how cheap he was. 

[Prince Namor]

Marvel pencilers being paid a higher rate to compensate for working Marvel Method is a common piece of complete BS supported by zero evidence and contradicted by all evidence.

[Zonker]

On 8/8/2023 at 12:20 PM, Prince Namor said:

I suspect that Kirby was paid for writing and pencils on his monster books, based upon his statements that Stan changed the dynamic because of money. He was making more than Stan at one point.

 

Yes, I've been wondering about that.  If Jack originally was paid for both writing and penciling the monster books, and then Stan demoted him to just penciler pay, while giving Jack only minimal story input, then Jack was doing essentially the same work for less money per page as of FF#1.  I realize going back to DC was not an option at that time for Jack, but I would think a significant pay cut back then would have been enough for Jack to want to at least try to pick up some additional work from Charlton or Classics Illustrated.  (Unless Charlton was so cheap that its writer + penciler pay was still less than Marvel's penciler-only pay.)

[Prince Namor]

On 8/9/2023 at 1:50 AM, Zonker said:

Yes, I've been wondering about that.  If Jack originally was paid for both writing and penciling the monster books, and then Stan demoted him to just penciler pay, while giving Jack only minimal story input, then Jack was doing essentially the same work for less money per page as of FF#1.  I realize going back to DC was not an option at that time for Jack, but I would think a significant pay cut back then would have been enough for Jack to want to at least try to pick up some additional work from Charlton or Classics Illustrated.  (Unless Charlton was so cheap that its writer + penciler pay was still less than Marvel's penciler-only pay.)

Charlton was known for having the cheapest rates in the business. Not sure how specifically true that was, but a few artists have mentioned it over the years. 

[Dr. Haydn]

On 8/8/2023 at 2:21 PM, Prince Namor said:

Charlton was known for having the cheapest rates in the business. Not sure how specifically true that was, but a few artists have mentioned it over the years. 

The one thing that Charlton seemed to offer was creative freedom. This certainly would have appealed to freethinkers like Ditko. As a lifelong bachelor, money was likely of less importance to him than it was to Kirby, with a wife and four children.

[Zonker]

 

On 8/8/2023 at 3:28 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

The one thing that Charlton seemed to offer was creative freedom. This certainly would have appealed to freethinkers like Ditko. As a lifelong bachelor, money was likely of less importance to him than it was to Kirby, with a wife and four children.

Yes, that's always been my impression, Kirby was always conscious to maximize income for his family.  Which is why it seems odd he would accept a pay cut by going from the pay for writing & penciling the monster books to "just penciling" pay for FF #1 and subsequent books.  Unless he could get more work out by doing the Marvel method, which seems unlikely given the minimal amount of input Stan apparently provided to kick off the stories.

What I can find online is Kirby told Gary Groth a typical page rate was $35 to $50, though it is not clear what period he is speaking about. (TCJ Interview) Then the claim is made in the NYT Captain Relevant article that Kirby left his $35,000 a year job at Marvel to take the Fourth World ideas to DC.  The Ray Wyman book indicates Kirby did an average of 670 pages per year during this period, which seems about right for 1969 (12 FF, 12 Thor, a couple of Caps and other stuff).  So that would be $52-ish per page, somewhat higher than the numbers @Prince Namor notes John Romita was looking at. 

Incidentally that $35,000 annual salary in 1969 is $290K in today's dollars.  Still a drop in the bucket compared to the $4B Disney valued Marvel at the time of purchase, but it wasn't like Jack was destitute during this time.  

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Zonker

[Prince Namor]

On 8/9/2023 at 3:01 AM, Zonker said:

Yes, that's always been my impression, Kirby was always conscious to maximize income for his family.  Which is why it seems odd he would accept a pay cut by going from the pay for writing & penciling the monster books to "just penciling" pay for FF #1 and subsequent books.  Unless he could get more work out by doing the Marvel method, which seems unlikely given the minimal amount of input Stan apparently provided to kick off the stories.

Stan made promises based on success, per Jack. Kirby became invested in those characters. Marvel chose not to invest in Kirby. 

On 8/9/2023 at 3:01 AM, Zonker said:

What I can find online is Kirby told Gary Groth a typical page rate was $35 to $50, though it is not clear what period he is speaking about. (TCJ Interview) Then the claim is made in the NYT Captain Relevant article that Kirby left his $35,000 a year job at Marvel to take the Fourth World ideas to DC.  The Ray Wyman book indicates Kirby did an average of 670 pages per year during this period, which seems about right for 1969 (12 FF, 12 Thor, a couple of Caps and other stuff).  So that would be $52-ish per page, somewhat higher than the numbers @Prince Namor notes John Romita was looking at.

Romita was talking about 1966 when he was coming back to Marvel and not a star yet. Romita was an artist in the romance department and NOT a star, making $45 a page. Kirby would've been Marvel's highest paid artist, having, at the very least co-created the majority of their current universe and in 1969, after proving himself for over a decade, writing AND drawing the stories, he was at only $7 more a page, than a romance artist at DC who only did pencils from someone else's -script. 

On top of that... according to John Buscema, Goodman at this time, felt Jack was making TOO MUCH money and cut his salary, immediately preceding his departure for DC. As to if that's actually true, I don't know. It's just what JB said. Either way, Jack wanted a contract and Marvel wouldn't give him what he wanted and he walked. 

On 8/9/2023 at 3:01 AM, Zonker said:

Incidentally that $35,000 annual salary in 1969 is $290K in today's dollars.  Still a drop in the bucket compared to the $4B Disney valued Marvel at the time of purchase, but it wasn't like Jack was destitute during this time.  

No one is saying Jack was destitute or even poor. Because he didn't get credit OR pay for the work he did, he didn't make as much as he should have. I don't care how much money you make, if you DON'T get paid for work you do, you're not going to accept that at some point. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 8/9/2023 at 6:01 AM, Zonker said:

 

Yes, that's always been my impression, Kirby was always conscious to maximize income for his family.  Which is why it seems odd he would accept a pay cut by going from the pay for writing & penciling the monster books to "just penciling" pay for FF #1 and subsequent books.  Unless he could get more work out by doing the Marvel method, which seems unlikely given the minimal amount of input Stan apparently provided to kick off the stories.

What I can find online is Kirby told Gary Groth a typical page rate was $35 to $50, though it is not clear what period he is speaking about. (TCJ Interview) Then the claim is made in the NYT Captain Relevant article that Kirby left his $35,000 a year job at Marvel to take the Fourth World ideas to DC.  The Ray Wyman book indicates Kirby did an average of 670 pages per year during this period, which seems about right for 1969 (12 FF, 12 Thor, a couple of Caps and other stuff).  So that would be $52-ish per page, somewhat higher than the numbers @Prince Namor notes John Romita was looking at. 

Incidentally that $35,000 annual salary in 1969 is $290K in today's dollars.  Still a drop in the bucket compared to the $4B Disney valued Marvel at the time of purchase, but it wasn't like Jack was destitute during this time.  

 

I remember reading that Goodman tried to cut Kirby's page rate in the late '60s, as Kirby was so prolific and therefore making more than any other artist. Not sure if that actually happened, but if it did that might have been the last straw for Kirby before quitting.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[Zonker]

On 8/8/2023 at 8:09 PM, Prince Namor said:

Stan made promises based on success, per Jack. Kirby became invested in those characters. Marvel chose not to invest in Kirby. 

Romita was talking about 1966 when he was coming back to Marvel and not a star yet. Romita was an artist in the romance department and NOT a star, making $45 a page. Kirby would've been Marvel's highest paid artist, having, at the very least co-created the majority of their current universe and in 1969, after proving himself for over a decade, writing AND drawing the stories, he was at only $7 more a page, than a romance artist at DC who only did pencils from someone else's --script. 

On top of that... according to John Buscema, Goodman at this time, felt Jack was making TOO MUCH money and cut his salary, immediately preceding his departure for DC. As to if that's actually true, I don't know. It's just what JB said. Either way, Jack wanted a contract and Marvel wouldn't give him what he wanted and he walked. 

No one is saying Jack was destitute or even poor. Because he didn't get credit OR pay for the work he did, he didn't make as much as he should have. I don't care how much money you make, if you DON'T get paid for work you do, you're not going to accept that at some point. 

Yes, I do think in addition to whatever else he may have done (or failed to do!), Stan Lee deserves criticism for his management style (which unfortunately was probably pretty typical for those times).  But for someone supposedly blessed with people skills and business savvy, Stan seems to have spent remarkably little effort in getting to know what truly motivated his top talent.  You would think that after Ditko left, Stan would have done whatever possible to understand what motivated Kirby and tried to keep him satisfied.  Instead, Stan turned out to be as surprised at Kirby's departure as he professed to be at Ditko's. It would be one thing if Stan was able to say "Jack's dialogue didn't fit the Marvel house style, and I couldn't agree to use all his words, so he quit."  Or, "I decided it was best to make the Silver Surfer into this messianic figure, and Jack didn't agree, so he quit."  Or even, "I tried to get the new owners at Cadence to match National Periodical Publications' offer in $$$, but Cadence just bought us, and didn't have the $$$ budgeted, so Jack quit."  Anything to indicate Stan was aware of the issues, tried to manage them, but eventually made the business call that what Kirby needed was more than Marvel was able to give him.  Instead, Stan only finds out his remaining top talent is working for the competition when Kirby calls him after-the-fact to tell him.  

[Steven Valdez]

On 8/9/2023 at 12:19 PM, Zonker said:

Yes, I do think in addition to whatever else he may have done (or failed to do!), Stan Lee deserves criticism for his management style (which unfortunately was probably pretty typical for those times).  But for someone supposedly blessed with people skills and business savvy, Stan seems to have spent remarkably little effort in getting to know what truly motivated his top talent.  You would think that after Ditko left, Stan would have done whatever possible to understand what motivated Kirby and tried to keep him satisfied.  Instead, Stan turned out to be as surprised at Kirby's departure as he professed to be at Ditko's. It would be one thing if Stan was able to say "Jack's dialogue didn't fit the Marvel house style, and I couldn't agree to use all his words, so he quit."  Or, "I decided it was best to make the Silver Surfer into this messianic figure, and Jack didn't agree, so he quit."  Or even, "I tried to get the new owners at Cadence to match National Periodical Publications' offer in $$$, but Cadence just bought us, and didn't have the $$$ budgeted, so Jack quit."  Anything to indicate Stan was aware of the issues, tried to manage them, but eventually made the business call that what Kirby needed was more than Marvel was able to give him.  Instead, Stan only finds out his remaining top talent is working for the competition when Kirby calls him after-the-fact to tell him.  

Kirby didn't have any other viable options during the '60s, and Stan knew it and played on it. Jack was persona non grata at DC (after a 1958 legal debacle with Jack Schiff) and Charlton was lousy money. Harvey and Archie comics were pretty much all humour, never really Kirby's preferred genre. Tower might have been the only real option, if only it had lasted longer.

[jimjum12]

On 8/8/2023 at 10:19 PM, Zonker said:

You would think that after Ditko left, Stan would have done whatever possible to understand what motivated Kirby and tried to keep him satisfied. 

You have to remember that when Ditko quit, he was replaced by Romita and the book became even more popular. I would imagine Stan felt that he was managing a brand that had grown past a dependence on individual talent. It wouldn't surprise me if he felt that these creative people were getting a favor by working at Marvel. Now THAT is the mentality of management everywhere, probably even more so at one of the hottest entertainment outfits in the world. I would wager that given the "work for hire" dynamic in place(industry wide ...) there was little concession given to the individual contribution.  GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited August 9, 2023 by jimjum12

[Zonker]

On 8/8/2023 at 11:02 PM, jimjum12 said:

You have to remember that when Ditko quit, he was replaced by Romita and the book became even more popular. I would imagine Stan felt that he was managing a brand that had grown past a dependence on individual talent. It wouldn't surprise me if he felt that these creative people were getting a favor by working at Marvel. Now THAT is the mentality of management everywhere, probably even more so at one of the hottest entertainment outfits in the world. I would wager that given the "work for hire" dynamic in place(industry wide ...) there was little concession given to the individual contribution.  GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

  And it could well be that Stan-- part of the generation that came of age during the Depression-- felt that anybody was lucky just to have a job, and that the freelancers' satisfaction just wasn't his problem.  Which was true... until one day it wasn't anymore...

[jimjum12]

On 8/8/2023 at 11:17 PM, Zonker said:

  And it could well be that Stan-- part of the generation that came of age during the Depression-- felt that anybody was lucky just to have a job, and that the freelancers' satisfaction just wasn't his problem.  Which was true... until one day it wasn't anymore...

... exactly, .... "Now finish polishing my loafers, pencil boy!"

As was mentioned before, the pay could be lucrative for a volume producer, until the well starts running dry. I think Stan was caught between a rock and a hard place, so to speak. I'm sure the friction came from Goodman. He may have been provided with every cover proof, but I bet money that there were stacks of printer's packages unopened and tossed. I feel very confident that he would, however, notice one artist bringing home 35K while the rest were hovering at 8-10K. He had hired Stan to manage day to day, those year end numbers would be another story. .... GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[jimjum12]

Personally, I do, and always will, feel that Stan had a LOT to do with the spirit of Spider-man. Ditko was NEVER much of a writer, he was too much of an intellectual ... and he didn't even create Dr. Strange, Kirby did. It was called "Dr. Droom" and preceded the FF as Marvel's first attempt at superhero character continuity. That does serve as an example of how Lee took another concept and used Ditko to make it the success it ultimately became. I do believe that Stan had a bad habit of equating ASM with Marvel ... you know, Spidey was the entree' and all the rest were just the sides .... and I (...and many others) felt that Lee's dialogue(Lee calls it "scripting") was what truly set ASM apart from the mundane and pedestrian nature of most of the rest of the comic industry. GOD BLESS... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

.... everyone else is extrapolating thoughts and motives out of the "minds" of dead people, I thought I'd have a go at it also. 

[The humble Watcher lurking]

On 8/8/2023 at 11:02 PM, jimjum12 said:

You have to remember that when Ditko quit, he was replaced by Romita and the book became even more popular. I would imagine Stan felt that he was managing a brand that had grown past a dependence on individual talent. It wouldn't surprise me if he felt that these creative people were getting a favor by working at Marvel. Now THAT is the mentality of management everywhere, probably even more so at one of the hottest entertainment outfits in the world. I would wager that given the "work for hire" dynamic in place(industry wide ...) there was little concession given to the individual contribution.  GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Became more popular but it was Ditko that created all those great villains.  Compare the first 38 issues to the next 38 issues of Amazing Spider-Man. By the time Spider-Man hit into the issues 70s to 100. It became a boring run without Ditko. It came back after Stan stopped writing it and a young Gerry Conway gave it new life.

Steve Ditko gave us this.

Created every one of them.

 

 

 

plus him and him.

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by The humble Watcher lurking

[jimjum12]

Ditko was certainly good at costume design ... probably better than Jack. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[sfcityduck]

On 8/8/2023 at 5:09 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

Romita was talking about 1966 when he was coming back to Marvel and not a star yet. Romita was an artist in the romance department and NOT a star, making $45 a page.

JR had already proven himself to Stan as more than capable at producing superhero comics.