CGC QC Warped Inner Cases 3 3

[dmt02908]

I am writing to ask if anyone else is having issues with warped inner cases with CGC.

Last year, I received a few hundred pressed and graded books from CGC with warped inner cases.

Some of the warping is so significant that it appears to have warped the books themselves.

I have sent hundreds of books back now as MECHANICAL ERRORS, and some have been returned in downgraded condition yet with the original grades.

This is frustrating because I cannot in good conscience ask for the current FMV for a book that appears to be in a lower grade condition than it was originally graded at.

If it is heat warping these inner cases (since the warping seems to be largely correlated to the months I have received most of the books: May, June, July, August), shouldn't there be some provision on the part of CGC to have shipped the books in a temperature controlled environment?

In turn, shouldn't they be responsible for the downgraded condition of the books as a result of the MECHANICAL ERRORS that have led to the warping of the books and/or any damage to the books that occur in the reholdering process?

Because most of my books are modern or copper age, there is a small margin between selling at a sustainable price and selling at cost or loss, so any downgrading of the books is undermining, if not eliminating, any of the value added by the pressing and grading.

In this way, CGC does not appear to be effectively providing the service I am paying for, which is to seal the book in best possible condition as a collector's item to be held or sold.

On the contrary, from my perspective, CGC is currently operating against it designated purposes, and it is compromising the quality of my collectibles, putting my eBay Top Seller status in jeopardy (mainly because of cancelled orders), and therefore ruining the sustainability of my business.

The stress is unreal. 

Any input would be helpful. Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by dmt02908

[Tnexus]

Pictures? I haven't had any issues, but I'm in a low humidity and heat climate.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Tnexus

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 2/18/2023 at 1:20 AM, dmt02908 said:

I have sent hundreds of books back now as MECHANICAL ERRORS, and some have been returned in downgraded condition yet with the original grades.

Stop giving CGC your money.
 

 

[Gaard]

On 2/18/2023 at 1:29 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Stop giving CGC your money.
 

 

He must be making good coinage, regardless of the 100s of ME, otherwise I don't understand why he doesn't do what you suggest.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 2/18/2023 at 2:25 PM, Gaard said:

He must be making good coinage, regardless of the 100s of ME, otherwise I don't understand why he doesn't do what you suggest.

I understand the problem with my suggestion.  Most copper/modern books are worthless in comparison to the same books in plastic.

[dmt02908]

On 2/18/2023 at 12:20 PM, Tnexus said:

Pictures? I haven't had any issues, but I'm in a low humidity and heat climate.

I will upload some photos. You will not believe what passes through CGC QC. Please check back in later!

[dmt02908]

On 2/18/2023 at 2:25 PM, Gaard said:

He must be making good coinage, regardless of the 100s of ME, otherwise I don't understand why he doesn't do what you suggest.

I am not trying to make a ton of money. I am trying to make my hobby/business sustainable. I started collecting in the early 1990s, so I had a bunch of early Spawn, for example. 

All in all, through additional purchasing since then, I have probably submitted forty or fifty Spawn #1s for grading and received at least thirty 9.8s.

I was selling them a few years ago for between $95 and $110.

Altogether, over the last four years, I have submitted probably around 1,200 books.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by dmt02908

[dmt02908]

On 2/18/2023 at 1:29 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Stop giving CGC your money.
 

 

Thanks so much for responding!

I hear what you are saying. I was going to tap out of the grading business with my last submission of 300 books last year. 

If they had come back in the same condition that I sent them in, but now pressed and graded, I would have done just fine and had a couple hundred happy customers with a case or two of some premium books in the PC.

However, what do you do when you have paid $15.00 for pressing and $18.75 for grading (each), and you receive the books back in worse shape you sent them in and/or cases that are perceptibly flawed either as a result of poor Quality Control or as a result of shipping and handling in non-temperature-controlled environments? 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 2/18/2023 at 6:28 PM, dmt02908 said:

Thanks so much for responding!

I hear what you are saying. I was going to tap out of the grading business with my last submission of 300 books last year. 

If they had come back in the same condition that I sent them in, but now pressed and graded, I would have done just fine and had a couple hundred happy customers with a case or two of some premium books in the PC.

However, what do you do when you have paid $15.00 for pressing and $18.75 for grading (each), and you receive the books back in worse shape you sent them in and/or cases that are perceptibly flawed either as a result of poor Quality Control or as a result of shipping and handling in non-temperature-controlled environments? 

The best you can hope for is some kind of compensation from CGC.  

@CGC Mike

It doesn’t seem logical to expect them to stop the problems from happening at this point.   Mislabels, debris....even books being encased upside down are nothing compared to CGC actually damaging your books.  
 

It’s truly sad that most damage to vintage comics these days  is the result of sending them into a grading service designed to preserve them.

Edited February 18, 2023 by THE_BEYONDER

[dmt02908]

On 2/18/2023 at 2:29 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I understand the problem with my suggestion.  Most copper/modern books are worthless in comparison to the same books in plastic.

Again, I appreciate your responding! 

Although I am a pretty accurate grader of books on my own, receiving the CGC grading and the protective case adds significant value to a Secret Wars 8 or a Amazing Spider-Man 252 in a higher grade.

Not so long ago, the price for quick press was $8.00 each (with a submission minimum of 15 books) and $17.00 for the grading. 

At that rate, a case of 9.8 Spawn #1s, even with the shipping back and forth to CGC and the eBay fees, would net around fifty percent above the cost.

 

[dmt02908]

On 2/18/2023 at 6:36 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

The best you can hope for is some kind of compensation from CGC.  

@CGC Mike

It doesn’t seem logical to expect them to stop the problems from happening at this point.   Mislabels, debris....even books being encased upside down are nothing compared to CGC actually damaging your books.  
 

It’s truly sad that most damage to vintage comics these days  is the result of sending them into a grading service designed to preserve them.

Here are a couple examples.

The Weapon X book here is clearly warped, and the smudging on the case is not finger prints. That is part of the plastic.

This first book was received two weeks ago.

The mini-comic book here is sealed on three sides, but the book is hanging below the bottom seal. This book is graded 9.8, but if you look closely, the bottom left-hand corner now has a color break. 

The second book was received about a week ago.

Edited February 19, 2023 by dmt02908

[Sigur Ros]

On 2/18/2023 at 6:10 PM, dmt02908 said:

You will not believe what passes through CGC QC.

Cute.   You must be new here.

[CGC Mike]

On 2/18/2023 at 6:36 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

The best you can hope for is some kind of compensation from CGC.  

@CGC Mike

It doesn’t seem logical to expect them to stop the problems from happening at this point.   Mislabels, debris....even books being encased upside down are nothing compared to CGC actually damaging your books.  
 

It’s truly sad that most damage to vintage comics these days  is the result of sending them into a grading service designed to preserve them.

I have been made aware of the problem, and will be speaking with management about it on Monday.  

[dmt02908]

On 2/18/2023 at 7:18 PM, Sigur Ros said:

Cute.   You must be new here.

I appreciate your sideways comment!

What I should have said is that "you will not believe what STILL passes through CGC QC."

I have been submitting books since 2019 at a rate between one hundred to three hundred per year.

Out of an estimated total of around 900 submissions, at least 20% percent (approximate 180) books have had to be resubmitted as MECHANICAL ERRORS.

Some books, even twice.

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by dmt02908

[dmt02908]

On 2/18/2023 at 7:45 PM, CGC Mike said:

I have been made aware of the problem, and will be speaking with management about it on Monday.  

I appreciate your interest in my situation and any advocacy on my behalf.

I have actually tried to correspond with CGC representatives about my concerns along the way without much more than cursory acknowledgment from them.

That is, I have received plenty of complimentary reholderings under the MECHNICAL ERRORS designation, but I have never received any substantial acknowledgment of my concerns regarding the systemic issues that have made my working relationship with CGC fraught with undue stress and grief.

On the whole, I have done a better job getting my books to CGC in the exact condition that I purchased them in than CGC has done getting them back to me.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by dmt02908

[lotofsilver]

I've submitted a similar number of books and have never felt I've been given a reason to return a book for a mechanical error. Now I'm imagining how much of my extra $3.60, or however much more, I'm paying per book over the last two years is going to cover submissions getting kicked back for ME at an upwards of 50% rate 🤔 

[dmt02908]

On 2/18/2023 at 11:17 PM, lotofsilver said:

I've submitted a similar number of books and have never felt I've been given a reason to return a book for a mechanical error. Now I'm imagining how much of my extra $3.60, or however much more, I'm paying per book over the last two years is going to cover submissions getting kicked back for ME at an upwards of 50% rate 🤔 

I appreciate your input!

If you are a CGC stockholder/stakeholder, you would be right to be concerned about the amount of MECHANICAL ERRORS that CGC has to address not just with me, but, apparently, many of its clients have had to send books back to CGC for a variety of reasons.

The thing is that I can't just send books back for complimentary reholdering without the MECHANICAL ERRORS being verified by CGC.

They have the MECHANICAL ERRORS designation in their system because they have made the ERRORS. Not me. 

Also, I am just as concerned about keeping the price of pressing and grading at sustainable levels for the following reasons:

1. When CGC does their job right the first time, they add value to the comic books as a commodity that helps cover the multiple overhead liabilities beyond the cost of the books, the pressing, and the grading.

2. When CGC does their job right the first time, the raw books only have to be exposed to direct handling once, not twice or three times, which better ensures maintenance of its original mint status.

3. When CGC does their job right the first time, I only have to wait six to nine months for my books to be pressed and graded rather than another three to six weeks to get them listed on eBay to start recouping some of my investment.

4. When CGC does their job right the first time, I have a lot less stress with a hobby/business that is supposed to be enjoyable. 

5. When CGC does their job right the first time, the business of collecting and selling premium comic books in Mint or Near Mint condition is far more affordable and sustainable for the buyer, the seller, and CGC.

And, finally,

6. When CGC does their job right, they retain their "industry leader" status, which the staff at CGC as well as every collector of CGC graded books can feel good about. 

In fact, when I have inquired about QC tolerances, protocols, and processes at CGC, it is not just out of concern for myself.

I really want to help item identify any systemic inefficiencies that, if properly addressed, can keep the financial and emotional costs down for all involved.

Edited February 19, 2023 by dmt02908

[Gaard]

Yes, we've seen these words countless times ... "complimentary reholder with shipping on us". How many here actually believe that it's free? Those costs (of all those 1000s of MEs) are built in somewhere.

[lostboys]

Yep.

 

I asked about this issue on these boards over a year ago.

I actually cracked one book out because I was so worried about the book being damaged.

The problem was the inner sleeve.

I took the inner sleeve out of the slab and It would not lay flat on the table.

I took the book out of the inner sleeve and the book did lay flat on the table.

It looks bad but as long as the spine is straight, the book inside should be fine.

 

Of course though, the book I cracked was a modern book that had only been in the slab for a few months.

[dmt02908]

 

On 2/20/2023 at 3:27 PM, lostboys said:

Yep.

 

I asked about this issue on these boards over a year ago.

I actually cracked one book out because I was so worried about the book being damaged.

The problem was the inner sleeve.

I took the inner sleeve out of the slab and It would not lay flat on the table.

I took the book out of the inner sleeve and the book did lay flat on the table.

It looks bad but as long as the spine is straight, the book inside should be fine.

 

Of course though, the book I cracked was a modern book that had only been in the slab for a few months.

Thanks so much for your input!

Unfortunately, some of the spines are not straight. 

Usually, the top third of the book is bent upwards, which places stress right below the top staple.

This stress, in some cases, puts a spine dent just below the issue number/price box in the top right hand quadrant.

Also, take a look at the curl on the open side of the Batman comic book.

Moreover, it looks like Newton Rings are also connected with the inner case warping problem.

For example, this is how I received a 9.8 Batman Adventures #1:

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by dmt02908