Newsstand vs Direct: Clarity (and maybe less misinformation) Needed 5 5

[Microchip]

On 3/25/2023 at 9:08 AM, comicwiz said:

@valiantmanhas always participated positively from the early days when he'd provide census data to us in more meaningful way than a census lookup. That his credibility is being questioned speaks on the dismal direction these boards have taken, but I tried to provide an alternative.

I grew up in an area where newsstands were the only way I could collect. Anyone that bought in this manner knows the way stars had to align to even put a run together, esp if depending on a few nearby convenience stores. And that the timing meant everything before the Beckers owners kid got to the books, especially given his horrible habit of snacking while reading books customers had to later purchase.

I collect them for nostalgia, not to speculate or invest in. Their historical significance is a lot more interesting to me than trying to squeeze more out of the sale of a comic, but it's actually discussions on the old distribution system that fascinate me more.

I'm constantly fascinated by the condition of books that have survived over the years.   Yes, I know the pressers have always been around to one degree or another, but the books themselves have to have been treated like the finest china for decades on end to reach encapsulation.   Thats why for my top favourite books, I've always valued CGC, because I simply couldn't trust even myself handling a high grade book.   It's astounding to think about the handling of so many books even to reach the book shelf is ample opportunity for dings, and scrapes.   So even if you were first through the door, the books at your local bookshop could already be a pile of VF's waiting for you.

[valiantman]

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 3/24/2023 at 5:45 PM, Microchip said:

I'm constantly fascinated by the condition of books that have survived over the years.   Yes, I know the pressers have always been around to one degree or another, but the books themselves have to have been treated like the finest china for decades on end to reach encapsulation.   Thats why for my top favourite books, I've always valued CGC, because I simply couldn't trust even myself handling a high grade book.   It's astounding to think about the handling of so many books even to reach the book shelf is ample opportunity for dings, and scrapes.   So even if you were first through the door, the books at your local bookshop could already be a pile of VF's waiting for you.

This is very true, but definitely possible, just takes experience

Experience doesn't come cheap sometimes...

[valiantman]

On 3/24/2023 at 5:43 PM, Lazyboy said:

On 3/24/2023 at 5:29 PM, valiantman said:

That could be a song...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKFalZm3FTc

On 3/24/2023 at 5:29 PM, valiantman said:

perfectly accompanied by a tiny violin.

What is your obsession with tiny violins? Do you play with your tiny... um, violin often?

The definition of irony.

Edited March 24, 2023 by valiantman

[Microchip]

On 3/25/2023 at 9:52 AM, valiantman said:

On 3/25/2023 at 9:43 AM, Lazyboy said:

On 3/25/2023 at 9:29 AM, valiantman said:

That could be a song...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKFalZm3FTc

On 3/25/2023 at 9:29 AM, valiantman said:

perfectly accompanied by a tiny violin.

What is your obsession with tiny violins? Do you play with your tiny... um, violin often?

The definition of irony.

Speaking to tangible, real world, established facts, and figures has been great.   @valiantman I've learned a lot from your application of logic, and reasoning. 

[CGC Mike]

This thread is becoming a daily headache for me.  I just banned 1 person from the topic.  If I am still called back to this thread, I am just going to lock it.

[paqart]

On 3/24/2023 at 6:48 PM, valiantman said:

Funniest meme of the day award.

[valiantman]

Amazing Spider-Man #300 (Marvel, 1988)

Newsstand percentages for GPA recorded sales, separated by CGC universal grade - 2021-2023 - more than 2,000 data points

Edited March 25, 2023 by valiantman

[Prince Namor]

On 3/24/2023 at 1:00 PM, paqart said:

That sport might be affected slightly by hoards but think about this example: The Bob Sidebottom shop in San Jose had boxes full Of Fantastic Four #1, Hulk #1, and other key Marvels. Literally 200 comics per box, each unopened, all in the best condition you can imagine. He sold them one at a time for what were high prices at the time to prevent a sudden drop in prices. Regardless, the comics were there and they did get into the hands of collectors. Do you think the large supply of those comics in that area (San Jose) made any dent in the prices we see today? Unlikely.

 

On 3/24/2023 at 5:25 PM, paqart said:

Restated: When I saw them, I accidentally stubbed my toe on a box that had been opened but its flaps were closed. They flew open when my foot made contact, revealing two stacks of comics, all Hulk #1's that filled the box to about the 75% mark. I was then told by the person who showed me the back room that the hundreds of boxes that filled the room were likewise filled with comics from the same era, and most were unopened.

Unopened boxes from the newsstand distributor? Weren't comics delivered in bundles back in the 60's?

On 3/24/2023 at 5:25 PM, paqart said:

It was more complicated to write it out that way and the post was already long. Hope you understand. I heard somewhere that Sidebottom had bought out a distributor in the 1960's. Maybe, assuming your information is accurate, the comics were repackaged when Sidebottom bought them.

A newsstand distributor? Who got credit from the publisher for anything that he didn't sell? Who didn't keep back issues? Sidebottom had the foresight to buy all the remaining copies of FF #1 in August of 1961 - that some newsstand publisher had obviously made the mistake of overbuying and not having a place to distribute (why would they have back stock? They got credit for anything that didn't sell), who then conveniently put them in Distribution Boxes, that didn't exist at the time - so that Saddlebottom could store them away for 7 years until you kicked open the box one day in 1968 while casually browsing for the latest issue of Capt. Savage and His Leatherneck Raiders?

Uhhh... perhaps you're remembering it wrong. 

[Prince Namor]

On 3/24/2023 at 10:08 PM, valiantman said:

Amazing Spider-Man #300 (Marvel, 1988)

Newsstand percentages for GPA recorded sales, separated by CGC universal grade - 2021-2023 - more than 2,000 data points

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but... couldn't the lower totals on Newsstand also be drastically reduced in quantity specifically because they were newsstand copies and more likely to get dinged and bent and mishandled...?

If, as an example for every 100 Direct Editions, 47 could get turned in to CGC as being in the 9.6 range, but...

For every 100 Newsstand Editions, only 3 were good enough to be in the 9.6 range because of newsstand wear and tear...

That would mean we still wouldn't have any idea of the actual breakdown in percentages, but the lack of showing on census would just be tied to the fact that Newsstand copies were just handled more carelessly by people who didn't see them as 'valuable'...

[paqart]

On 3/25/2023 at 12:09 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

Unopened boxes from the newsstand distributor? Weren't comics delivered in bundles back in the 60's?

A newsstand distributor? Who got credit from the publisher for anything that he didn't sell? Who didn't keep back issues? Sidebottom had the foresight to buy all the remaining copies of FF #1 in August of 1961 - that some newsstand publisher had obviously made the mistake of overbuying and not having a place to distribute (why would they have back stock? They got credit for anything that didn't sell), who then conveniently put them in Distribution Boxes, that didn't exist at the time - so that Saddlebottom could store them away for 7 years until you kicked open the box one day in 1968 while casually browsing for the latest issue of Capt. Savage and His Leatherneck Raiders?

Uhhh... perhaps you're remembering it wrong. 

NO, I'm not. It was a box of Hulk #1's. The rest was described. The room had very high ceilings, was about 5 times wider than the store, about 3-4 times deeper, boxes of comics stacked ten feet high. There was a narrow diagonal path from the back of the shop area to the bathroom on the far end of the back room. Sidebottom's was known primarily for his underground comics, which is why I usually avoided the store. On this day, I dropped in to look at the new comics because nearby Recycle Books didn't carry new issues. He also always had a mint copy of X-Men #1, Avengers #1, FF #1, Spider-Man #1, and Hulk #1 on the wall, each priced at $500 at a time when Overstreet listed them at $375 or less. I think he had another store in a nearby town where had another set of those but I'm not sure about that. The West San Carlos shop I saw often because I graded collections for Recycle Books on the corner and later graded and priced comics for Comics and Fantasies, also on West San Carlos. If you guys are annoyed by the idea of "distributor's boxes", I don't know what to say. This happened in around 1978 and I had to open distributor's boxes from Seuling's operation every week at Comics and Fantasies. I know what they looked like. However, in the 15 years or so since they were published, I can think of many reasons for packing them in "modern" distributor's boxes rather than leaving them in bundles or some other inferior packing material. Speaking for myself, I have long been in the habit of rebagging almost everything I buy as soon as I get it because the bags are often dirty, wrinkled, or have some other problem.

As for the "bought out a newsstand distributor" portion of this, that is more modern hearsay I read about from someone on a comics forum a few years ago. It made sense in the context of what I saw and was told by the clerk at the time. That said, I did not open every single box to check all the contents of every box. The Hulk box had a gap large enough to have contained maybe 30 comics. The rest was full and looked like they were all #1's, but I didn't stick my hands in there to check. The clerk told me that's what they were and I believed him. After all, I was looking at no less than 10 right on top and there was no reson to think they didn't continue. He pointed to a couple of nearby boxes that also had key number ones sitting on top and said that the entire back room was full of stuff like that, though I'd be surprised if there wasn't a lot of variety given the quantity of boxes. The highest value comics seemed to be the most accessible.

Edited March 25, 2023 by paqart

[paqart]

On 3/25/2023 at 12:30 AM, paqart said:

NO, I'm not. It was a box of Hulk #1's. The rest was described. The room had very high ceilings, was about 5 times wider than the store, about 3-4 times deeper, boxes of comics stacked ten feet high. There was a narrow diagonal path from the back of the shop area to the bathroom on the far end of the back room. Sidebottom's was known primarily for his underground comics, which is why I avoided the store. He also always had a mint copy of X-Men #1, Avengers #1, FF #1, Spider-Man #1, and Hulk #1 on the wall, each priced at $500 at a time when Overstreet listed them at $375 or less. I think he had another store in a nearby town where had another set of those but I'm not sure about that. The West San Carlos shop I saw often because I graded collections for Recycle Books on the corner and later graded and priced comics for Comics and Fantasies, also on West San Carlos. If you guys are annoyed by the idea of "distributor's boxes", I don't know what to say. This happened in around 1978 and I had to open distributor's boxes from Seuling's operation every week at Comics and Fantasies. I know what they looked like. However, in the 15 years or so since they were published, I can think of many reasons for packing them in "modern" distributor's boxes rather than leaving them in bundles or some other inferior packing material. Speaking for myself, I have long been in the habit of rebagging almost everything I buy as soon as I get it because the bags are often dirty, wrinkled, or have some other problem.

As for the "bought out a newsstand distributor" portion of this, that is more modern hearsay I read about from someone on a comics forum a few years ago. It made sense in the context of what I saw and was told by the clerk at the time. That said, I did not open every single box to check all the contents of every box. The Hulk box had a gap large enough to have contained maybe 30 comics. The rest was full and looked like they were all #1's, but I didn't stick my hands in there to check. The clerk told me that's what they were and I believed him. After all, I was looking at no less than 10 right on top and there was no reson to think they didn't continue. He pointed to a couple of nearby boxes that also had key number ones sitting on top and said that the entire back room was full of stuff like that, though I'd be surprised if there wasn't a lot of variety given the quantity of boxes. The highest value comics seemed to be the most accessible.

And speaking of hoards, here's another, but much smaller. The Sidebottom hoard was huge. There had to be no less than 100,000 comics in there, maybe 200,000. Not only that but you'd never guess from looking at the shop, which was tiny. The other hoard came about after I posted a card on a grocery store bulletin board in around 1977-1978. It said that I would buy any collection, any size. I was a kid with no money but I figured if the collection was good enough, I could get the money. A guy called me up and told me he had a garage full of comics. I rode over on my bike and discovered he was exactly right. About half the garage or more was buried four feet deep in boxes of comics. Now maybe you'll get annoyed again but to me, these looked like the kind of boxes used to ship comics to dealers. The comics inside looked like they'd never been opened.

The guy told me that his brother had owned a newsstand but he had recently been shipped to prison for a reason he didn't provide. He needed money for expenses (legal?) but what, I don't know, so he'd asked his brother to sell the comics.

There were a lot of duplicates in the boxes, all of which were dated from around 1967-1969. The three most common comics in the group were Iron Man #1, Iron-Man and Sub-Mariner #1, and another combo #1 title like that but it slips my mind at the moment. There was only one copy of Aquaman #1, which became a point of contention with the kid I found to front me the money to buy one of the boxes for $60. We played poker for who got the Aquaman. Loser got a duplicate of Iron Man #1. I got the Aquaman as well as about 5 copies of IM #1, IM&SM #1, but mostly the two of us split around 150 Neal Adams Detectives and Batmans. The deal I made btw, was that I would buy one box but I could fill the box with whatever I wanted. I spent a few hours picking out the best comics and left the rest. In total, there may have been around 4,000 comics in there.

[paqart]

On 3/25/2023 at 12:17 AM, Prince Namor said:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but... couldn't the lower totals on Newsstand also be drastically reduced in quantity specifically because they were newsstand copies and more likely to get dinged and bent and mishandled...?

If, as an example for every 100 Direct Editions, 47 could get turned in to CGC as being in the 9.6 range, but...

For every 100 Newsstand Editions, only 3 were good enough to be in the 9.6 range because of newsstand wear and tear...

That would mean we still wouldn't have any idea of the actual breakdown in percentages, but the lack of showing on census would just be tied to the fact that Newsstand copies were just handled more carelessly by people who didn't see them as 'valuable'...

I would agree with you except some newsstands don't show up anywhere in any condition. Also, those ASM 300's are extremely common as newsstands go, though high grade copies look more like the newsstand profile.

Edited March 25, 2023 by paqart

[Prince Namor]

On 3/25/2023 at 12:44 AM, paqart said:

I would agree with you except some newsstands don't show up anywhere in any condition. Also, those ASM 300's are extremely common as newsstands go, though high grade copies look more like the newsstand profile.

I've seen plenty of newsstands over the years that put their comics on a spinner rack and NONE of them would've ever been eligible to one day be slabbed. 

[paqart]

On 3/25/2023 at 1:32 AM, Prince Namor said:

I've seen plenty of newsstands over the years that put their comics on a spinner rack and NONE of them would've ever been eligible to one day be slabbed. 

True but that isn't the only way to display such comics. Drug stores for instance, often used the same shelving used for magazines. That created other problems but if you got there fast enough, the comics could be saved.

[jsilverjanet]

This thread is a perfect example of how the boards have changed over the last few years 

 

[comicwiz]

On 3/25/2023 at 12:17 AM, Prince Namor said:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but... couldn't the lower totals on Newsstand also be drastically reduced in quantity specifically because they were newsstand copies and more likely to get dinged and bent and mishandled...?

If, as an example for every 100 Direct Editions, 47 could get turned in to CGC as being in the 9.6 range, but...

For every 100 Newsstand Editions, only 3 were good enough to be in the 9.6 range because of newsstand wear and tear...

That would mean we still wouldn't have any idea of the actual breakdown in percentages, but the lack of showing on census would just be tied to the fact that Newsstand copies were just handled more carelessly by people who didn't see them as 'valuable'...

The consistency and patterning year after year is definitely something to recognize. Another thing I have noticed, particularly with CPV's during the past 4-5 years, is that they are starting to show up in slabs at lower grades a LOT more often. The last three years where values were hitting new price ceilings seems to have shaken out more people willing to buy lower grades because they can't afford the nosebleed grades. Ultimately though, what this does show is availability and supply is a major factor in all this, and even back in the day when we made the case for CPV's (which are every bit a newsstand as they are a cover price variant) were similarly tough to find in high grade. What it created was a condition that anything over 9.0 was much tougher to find, and conversely, that is where you would begin to see a value gap forming as it pulled away from the value of a counterpart US. It wasn't unheard of in those days to get double the price for a 9.4 CPV than you would the US newsstand or direct, and when you got into 9.6 or 9.8, the availability is non-existent, and the prices really began to get crazy on certain issues. This is what can be drawn from this chart as well, with an issue that more than likely was a flagship title of the time, and had one of the top three print runs. Patterning logic that 9.4/9.6 was going to be harder to come by, and essentially more expensive than direct. But if we are going to run the gamut on anecdotes, what this also shows is that stealth reconditioning comes with limits. And there's less of an influence on newsstands, either due to condition attrition or low supply. That's a pretty powerful inference to draw from for anyone that started out 20 years ago, claiming the difficulties in attaining high grades with newsstands, loathes what pressing did to mess with our perceptions of attainment of grade, and whether for speculative or nostalgic reasons, why newsstands seem more immune from the manipulative practices of this hobby.

Edited March 25, 2023 by comicwiz

[valiantman]

On 3/24/2023 at 11:17 PM, Prince Namor said:

On 3/24/2023 at 9:08 PM, valiantman said:

Amazing Spider-Man #300 (Marvel, 1988)

Newsstand percentages for GPA recorded sales, separated by CGC universal grade - 2021-2023 - more than 2,000 data points

Expand  

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but...

Devil's Advocate as opposed to... what? I just put numbers in a table. You aren't giving an "opposing viewpoint" for anything posted. 

I absolutely agree with you that the conditions of Amazing Spider-Man #300 at the newsstand were significantly less likely to result in CGC 9.8 grades.

There have been some who suggested that newsstands wouldn't necessarily be treated any more harshly than direct editions, but I think those people are basing that comment off of situations where they got first pick of newsstands from their local grocery store, drug store, magazine rack, or some other completely-uncommon situation that was "common" to them, but nothing like what the rest of us saw on newsstand books.

Putting (2,000+) numbers to it, there's consistent evidence that the higher-the-grade, the less-likely-to-find newsstand in that grade, for ASM #300, the most submitted book in CGC history.

[valiantman]

On 3/25/2023 at 6:42 AM, comicwiz said:

...

But if we are going to run the gamut on anecdotes, what this also shows is that stealth reconditioning comes with limits. And there's less of an influence on newsstands, either due to condition attrition or low supply. That's a pretty powerful inference to draw from for anyone that started out 20 years ago, claiming the difficulties in attaining high grades with newsstands, loathes what pressing did to mess with our perceptions of attainment of grade, and whether for speculative or nostalgic reasons, why newsstands seem more immune from the manipulative practices of this hobby.

Keeping that line of thinking going... the "separation" of newsstand (still not being shown in the CGC Census) comes after the decade-plus wave of widespread pressing, so these lower percentages for high grade newsstands 2021-2023 might actually be a lot higher now because of pressing than what we would have seen if CGC had separated newsstand from the beginning. They're still low percentages (now), but they could have been even lower (back then).

Edited March 25, 2023 by valiantman

[Prince Namor]

On 3/25/2023 at 10:34 AM, valiantman said:

Devil's Advocate as opposed to... what? I just put numbers in a table. You aren't giving an "opposing viewpoint" for anything posted. 

You weren't trying to make a point?

On 3/25/2023 at 10:34 AM, valiantman said:

I absolutely agree with you that the conditions of Amazing Spider-Man #300 at the newsstand were significantly less likely to result in CGC 9.8 grades.

Actually I made my point in regard to all copies.

On 3/25/2023 at 10:34 AM, valiantman said:

There have been some who suggested that newsstands wouldn't necessarily be treated any more harshly than direct editions, but I think those people are basing that comment off of situations where they got first pick of newsstands from their local grocery store, drug store, magazine rack, or some other completely-uncommon situation that was "common" to them, but nothing like what the rest of us saw on newsstand books.

Putting (2,000+) numbers to it, there's consistent evidence that the higher-the-grade, the less-likely-to-find newsstand in that grade, for ASM #300, the most submitted book in CGC history.

So you were making a point.

Was anyone disputing this specifically?