Comic Art as Fine Art

[Lambo]

I think my friend deliquorstore made some really valid points. But who knows what will be valued and what won't be valued 10, 20, 30, 100 years from now? If you told anyone in our hobby 20 years ago that a X-Men DPS would go for $55k they would have had you committed! or a so so Dark Knight page would be 8-10k? Inconceivable at the time. What happens when a page goes for $250-500k? Does that then qualify as 'fine art'?

 

How about some of the great painters working in comics and who already have great reputations 'outside' of our hobby? Kent Williams, Dave McKean, George Pratt, Alex Ross? How will their work be viewed? Maybe an Alex Ross painting will be viewed as 'fine art' under your definition of such.

 

What I do know is I love comic art. Is it because I read comic books from when I was a little kid to now that I'm an old fart? Yeah, you bet. Do I consider it "fine art"? Well, I acknowledge that you won't find a Kirby hanging with a Da Vinci in Paris but it's "fine" enough for me. I love it and enjoy collecting it.

 

Lambert

(to me a RAY Lago painting is fine art!)

 

that was for you, deliquorstore!

 

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=178

[COMICKINGS]

Fine art has been trading hands for centuries,and it's in the millions. Currently we're talking comic art from the last 60 years that could bring 500K. I'm sure there are pieces that would bring a million. Not bad for an art generation that is young compared to "Fine Art". Once a few pieces hit the million mark,people are gonna realise this isn't kids stuff,and they will take time to see what this whole market is about,and then it's gonna be on. KK ain't as Krazy as you guys think.

[Bronty]

Or maybe it's hit the peak of its value? (barring inflationary effects obviously)

 

I don't know why this snowball argument is always used; that prices will increase once people see how much prices are increasing. It's hardly automatic and circular logic at its finest. Consider - maybe once people see how much is being paid they'll figure out it's overpriced?

 

The people propping up art sales today are fanboy ex comic collectors. What happens when they get old and there aren't any new collectors to replace them? Comic art is absolutely tied to the same demographic concerns that comics are. If there were zero comic collectors on the planet, would anybody give a about a page from, say, wonder woman 179?

 

Comics and comic art are tied at the hip, if one goes up/down, the other is sure to follow sooner or later. It's no coincidence that there has been a huge rise in art values since cgc. When say a high grade Iron Man 1 is 2k, it's pretty easy to talk people into ludicrous amounts for related art. When comics were cheap, art was cheap.

[COMICKINGS]

Tell me what is so fine about a Picasso piece,or a Pollack piece,or any other piece thats hard to understand why it's millions of dollars. How many of you guys even know about Picasso,Dali,Monet,etc...except that their paintings cost more than most people could earn in a lifetime. At auction,you get 5 rich people in a bidding war to show who has the most money is what that's all about. 90% of the guys bidding can't even appreciate art. It's all bragging rights. But without people like that,everything would be cheap. There's always going to be hype in everything collectible. Millions of people collect things,and it's a high percentage of those collectors that have resale value in mind when they make a big purchase.

 

One thing is,these fine artists don't have art available everywhere you look. Thats part of the mystique of it. The better comic artists for the most part have art on the market at all times. But the key pieces...the covers,the main splashes,the important pages,will always be the ones to go after. Comics will be around forever.

 

Comic sales in my store are the best they have been in 5 years. People are seeing these books as real entertainment,and not for kids. There are no kids collecting anymore. But thats not to say there will not be anybody collecting 20 years from now. It's a more mature audience collecting these days,and when these younger guys get older they will be the new people coming into the hobby.

[Kermit the frog]

Tell me what is so fine about a Picasso piece,or a Pollack piece,or any other piece thats hard to understand why it's millions of dollars. How many of you guys even know about Picasso,Dali,Monet,etc...except that their paintings cost more than most people could earn in a lifetime. At auction,you get 5 rich people in a bidding war to show who has the most money is what that's all about. 90% of the guys bidding can't even appreciate art. It's all bragging rights.

 

Unfornutelly that kind of behaviour isn't only restrained to Picasso's and such auctions...in the end money can't buy everything it seems!!!

[Timulty]

I believe, that some people actually fancy Picasso, Dali, Monet etc. Because they were the hallmark of their respective art movements. Cubism, Surrealism, Impressionism etc. When taken in historical context the value of these painting can be seen Also, a painting can mean more that just its image. For example Guernica by Picasso is a statment about the Spanish Revolution, in particular the horrors of war. Few people want to take the time to explain a painting its history and what it means. In that regards it is like poetry.

[*paull*]

Comickings: Sales in your store may be the best they've been in five years, but are they the best they have been in the past 10 years? 20 years? Recent sales may be good, but there's no question that the market is on a downward trend.

 

Of course key pieces, splashes and covers will always sell for top dollar. The market won't drop out. But I think it's important to look at the market overall.

 

Why do people think that fine art people are going to swoop into the comic OA market and view an early X-Men or Spider-Man cover at 100K and consider that a good deal? At what point does the art market value these pages at a higher price than the comic collectors? I just don't see it happening.

[Bronty]

This is the JP-will-bring-coin-collectors-in mentality all over again

[Robert Plunkett-migration]

I don't know about Pollak etc., but I am told that Picassos, adjusted for inflation, have lost 85% of their value (meaning price) since their peak. Eventually, people do come to their senses. Dali was literally one of my heroes in college but now I go, "What was I thinking?"

 

Yep, all you need is two knuckleheads with more money than sense and a yen for any piece of art to drive it's auction into the stratosphere. That's a good argument for having a large and diversified collection, more chances to catch two knuckleheads.

 

My prediction is exactly the opposite, things that are most dependent upon the appeal of comic books as such are the things that will suffer the most when the current generations of comic book readers/art collectors outlive their money and/or die. It's the stuff that doesn't require any background knowledge or interest in comics that will fare well.

 

I think it actually helps to have less knowledge of comics when you buy comic art. I bought four Lady Deaths before my knowledge of her went beyond, "She's a white-skinned lady with blank eyes, huge hair and boobs, tiny clothes who may or may not be evil has a dog and has something to do with Evil Ernie (whoever that is) and hell. Her creator is dead and her comic company went bankrupt and the story I bought that piece from isn't her real origin." I still have no idea who Herricane except her appearance, that Adam Hughes and Josef Rubinstein worked on her at least a little and she was in Penthouse Comics. My guess is that she spent little time in her costume. I figure that if the piece is worth something to me, being the way I am, it will keep its appeal after the fan boys are poor and gone.

[delekkerste]

I don't know about Pollak etc., but I am told that Picassos, adjusted for inflation, have lost 85% of their value (meaning price) since their peak. Eventually, people do come to their senses.

 

I'm not bullish on fine art or comic art prices at current levels, but this statement about the Picassos is simply not factual. His work has handily outpaced inflation; I did the calculation on that "Boy with a Pipe" painting that sold last fall and I think it came out to over 16% a year compounded. His oeuvre remains among the most popular and priciest around with both nominal and real price levels at/near peak levels.

[COMICKINGS]

You can always pick a certain piece of fine art here or there that outperforms another from the same artist. But still,all of the fine art greats stuff is unattainable to most collectors because of supply and demand,and price. Comic art is everywhere. There is alot of work out there by the biggest names in this genre. I'm not saying the cover to any common Golden Age,Silver,will be worth or should or will be worth 100k+. It's worth whatever somebody will pay for it,and there are alot of pieces out there that more than one collector wants. Quality pieces that have meaning to this hobby,are getting due respect in auctions these days. It's hard for some people to fathom the prices for this stuff these last few years,compared to what they were going for 10 years ago.

[COMICKINGS]

Comickings: Sales in your store may be the best they've been in five years, but are they the best they have been in the past 10 years? 20 years? Recent sales may be good, but there's no question that the market is on a downward trend.

 

I have been in business for 13-14 years and alot of my brand new comic buyers are different from the ones I knew in the '90's. The market was high due to speculation,and all the speculators are pretty much gone. Almost everybody left a readers,and there are alot of books that these people enjoy reading every month. In this area (a 10 mile radius) there are 5 shops that have been around for atleast 10 years.I'd say the total comic pulls between the 5 is about 800-900 pull customers.one of which has about 375-400 pull customers.Granted, we are not all strictly comic stores, but all 5 of us do a decent comic business. I hear stories from other dealers about business in their area,and I'm sure it's better/worse all over the place. But in this area they seem to be selling better.

[Aman619]

I don't know about Pollak etc., but I am told that Picassos, adjusted for inflation, have lost 85% of their value (meaning price) since their peak. Eventually, people do come to their senses.

 

I'm not bullish on fine art or comic art prices at current levels, but this statement about the Picassos is simply not factual. His work has handily outpaced inflation; I did the calculation on that "Boy with a Pipe" painting that sold last fall and I think it came out to over 16% a year compounded. His oeuvre remains among the most popular and priciest around with both nominal and real price levels at/near peak levels.

 

yeah. I was more than a bit puzzled by that remark too. 85%

[Aman619]

You can always pick a certain piece of fine art here or there that outperforms another from the same artist. But still,all of the fine art greats stuff is unattainable to most collectors because of supply and demand,and price. Comic art is everywhere. There is alot of work out there by the biggest names in this genre. I'm not saying the cover to any common Golden Age,Silver,will be worth or should or will be worth 100k+. It's worth whatever somebody will pay for it,and there are alot of pieces out there that more than one collector wants. Quality pieces that have meaning to this hobby,are getting due respect in auctions these days. It's hard for some people to fathom the prices for this stuff these last few years,compared to what they were going for 10 years ago.

 

Are you referring to Picasso prints? Because there are 10s of thousands of them and yes prices have crashed due in large part to the practice of flodding the market in the 80s with lithos. The paintings have held up well and increased handily as Dela has pointed out.

[Robert Plunkett-migration]

I guess it depends on how you work your sample. I recall the 1980's talk about how "quality" used coins outpaced the stock market, precious metals, and just about everything else. The way they got to that was to take the kinds of pieces that had the most appreciation and called that "quality" ignoring the fact that nobody much was recommending them as quality at the time and ignoring the fact that the vast majority of coins were a lousy investment.

 

My source is an article in http://www.artrenewal.org/ and unfortunately, that site is huge and I can't find it.

[COMICKINGS]

I guess it depends on how you work your sample. I recall the 1980's talk about how "quality" used coins outpaced the stock market, precious metals, and just about everything else. The way they got to that was to take the kinds of pieces that had the most appreciation and called that "quality" ignoring the fact that nobody much was recommending them as quality at the time and ignoring the fact that the vast majority of coins were a lousy investment.

 

My source is an article in http://www.artrenewal.org/ and unfortunately, that site is huge and I can't find it.

 

But OA is one of a kind. Coins,comics,whatever...you could have the superb highest graded specimen out there,but the possibility is there that more exist,possible even in better condition.

[Robert Plunkett-migration]

I guess it depends on how you work your sample. I recall the 1980's talk about how "quality" used coins outpaced the stock market, precious metals, and just about everything else. The way they got to that was to take the kinds of pieces that had the most appreciation and called that "quality" ignoring the fact that nobody much was recommending them as quality at the time and ignoring the fact that the vast majority of coins were a lousy investment.

 

My source is an article in http://www.artrenewal.org/ and unfortunately, that site is huge and I can't find it.

 

But OA is one of a kind. Coins,comics,whatever...you could have the superb highest graded specimen out there,but the possibility is there that more exist,possible even in better condition.

 

This uniqueness is why you only need two knuckleheads with a "gotta have it" attitude and more money than sense to drive the price sky high. If they gotta have the cover of ASM #48, they can't give it a pass even at six or seven figures.

 

If you're saying what I think you're saying, the irony about the 1980's coin madness was that, according to my best information, the "quality coins" they used as their sample were overwhelmingly American coins in the first ten or so years of the history mint. Those coins were genuine rarities and ones that rarely were in MS 55 much less MS 67 condition. The coins they pushed to investors were common coins like Morgan dollars that were given astronomical value (at least briefly) because they were in conditions like MS 67.

[shrunkenhead]

Tell me what is so fine about a Picasso piece,or a Pollack piece,or any other piece thats hard to understand why it's millions of dollars. How many of you guys even know about Picasso,Dali,Monet,etc...except that their paintings cost more than most people could earn in a lifetime.

 

To answer this I must first put on my snob hat (and please bear in mind this little rant comes from a fellow geek who loves comics):

 

Ok, now the reason that so many of "us" wouldn't know about Picasso, Dali, Monet, etc., is that we're mostly a bunch of fanboy geeks who don't recognize that there is an existing world out there in which people (even--gasp---people all over the world, like, outside America! ) from time to time put down the cheeseburgers and the pornography and try to, you know, actually learn something about the world in which they live. Who needs an understanding of aesthetic craftsmanship or art history when you can look at pictures of guys in tights punching each other? Why try to interpret paintings when you can get your art with word ballons? Shoot, why read at all when you can play video games? Why try to ask questions about what it means to be a human being when your TV set will gladly hand you all the answers you'll ever require? Hell, let's just get it over with and flash forward to the next (and final) phase in human development, the one in which we're all big as a house, morally stupid, sexually repressed, and intellectually abysmal. Because you know what, THAT's the world in which the cover art for an issue of EFFING SPIDER-MAN is the artistic equivalent to Dali's Hallucinogenic Toreador, so long as the bottom lines on both about match in a big stakes auction.

 

Ok, snob hat off. Pass the Doritos.

 

(This message was brought to you by the letter Z, the number 666, and an overdose of Philip K. novels )

[shrunkenhead]

 

[Bronty]

muaha, great comparison and great point.