jimbo_7071 Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 On 6/20/2024 at 9:06 AM, Professor K said: I read what you said last night but I had to come back. That's some interesting stuff. Replicating paper and ink, sounds very scientific and very cool. And I've seen some historians handling books and documents over 500 years old without gloves and I remember thinking, "Man that's not good". But I guess that's not the case. As far as sunlight and the testing you've done I bet most older books even into the mid 1960's I would think would hold up better to sunlight than comics from say the 70's,80's, and 90's. Much better quality paper and ink I would assume. Anyway neat stuff Eventually replicating and aging vintage paper and inks will become refined enough that there will be more Action 1s in the census than the 200,000 copies from the original print run. Professor K 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sauce Dog Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 On 6/20/2024 at 9:06 AM, Professor K said: I read what you said last night but I had to come back. That's some interesting stuff. Replicating paper and ink, sounds very scientific and very cool. And I've seen some historians handling books and documents over 500 years old without gloves and I remember thinking, "Man that's not good". But I guess that's not the case. As far as sunlight and the testing you've done I bet most older books even into the mid 1960's I would think would hold up better to sunlight than comics from say the 70's,80's, and 90's. Much better quality paper and ink I would assume. Anyway neat stuff Unfortunately in this case the 'replicating' is less scientific on my end and really just sourcing as many different paper stocks as possible, then doing far-too many test prints until you find something that basically matches as close to original. Finding a paper stock that could best match golden age covers took lots of time it almost drove me insane (one of the things I was looking for is how it cracked/split when bent along a spine...not even sure it was necessary, but for some reason felt it was important at the time). Typically most only wear gloves when handling an item for display or auction (which adds to the allure of the presentation and makes the item seem even more fancy!), basically if you are holding a rare antique gloves are perfectly fine but not if you are going to manipulate it any way (such as leaf through the pages - that risks damage) as any reduction in your tactile senses can lead to accidentally tearing something (or snagging on a fibre). It far safer for the documents being handled to just properly wash your hands before touching it (I posted some of the academic research on this in a previous comment long ago, but will have to dig it out). The year, inks, gloss, and paper do impact exposure. My point was just it is okay to take a book out and if it briefly enters into the sun light it shouldn't give you cause for a heart attack, you are not going to suddenly loose thousands of bucks because it left the safety of the shadows for a moment. I don't recommend leaving books in the sun, obviously, but I've also had books on display in my home (on rotation) with no damage (also note UV protection will not protect an item that is exposed longterm - it will mitigate damage, but not stop all color loss. Always rotate your display books!) One day I really want to get access to a MicroFade Tester machine - I would love to try using one on a few comics! Professor K 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sauce Dog Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 (edited) On 6/20/2024 at 9:34 AM, jimbo_7071 said: Eventually replicating and aging vintage paper and inks will become refined enough that there will be more Action 1s in the census than the 200,000 copies from the original print run. While I think replicating a forgery that can fool CGC is possible, I don't think we will ever see a convincing forgery that gets all the details right that can withstand proper museum level scrutiny (not just an overworked grader that has just finished looking at three dozen ASM #300 and hundreds of Deadpool variant books that week so he's just happy to see something new in front of him). This did remind me of this story of faking art but also selling one legit one in the lot https://news.artnet.com/art-world/mschf-warhol-drawing-release-2025316 - so maybe one day we get a hundred Action #1s listed on Heritage Auction, with a note saying only one copy out of them all is actually an authentic one Edited June 20 by Sauce Dog jimbo_7071 and Professor K 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo_7071 Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 On 6/20/2024 at 1:55 PM, Sauce Dog said: While I think replicating a forgery that can fool CGC is possible, I don't think we will ever see a convincing forgery that gets all the details right that can withstand proper museum level scrutiny (not just an overworked grader that has just finished looking at three dozen ASM #300 and hundreds of Deadpool variant books that week so he's just happy to see something new in front of him). This did remind me of this story of faking art but also selling one legit one in the lot https://news.artnet.com/art-world/mschf-warhol-drawing-release-2025316 - so maybe one day we get a hundred Action #1s listed on Heritage Auction, with a note saying only one copy out of them all is actually an authentic one I don't think that they could get the forgery right on the first iteration, but if a forger was in cahoots with an expert, then fine tuning the forgery until all details were correct would be possible. After that, an unlimited supply of fakes could be produced. There could be a couple of guys out there with vintage machinery, vintage paper, and vintage inks already working on the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sauce Dog Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 On 6/21/2024 at 5:39 PM, jimbo_7071 said: I don't think that they could get the forgery right on the first iteration, but if a forger was in cahoots with an expert, then fine tuning the forgery until all details were correct would be possible. After that, an unlimited supply of fakes could be produced. There could be a couple of guys out there with vintage machinery, vintage paper, and vintage inks already working on the problem. Sure, it is possible...but in my experience not probable. There are many other items that are easier to forge, both in cost and time, that would not be held to such scrutiny. Easier for someone to forge a modern grail and sell those raw a thousand times over than try to get all the details right on a Golden Age book for a single sale that will get scrutinized by the buyer and due to low population count possibly called out by the public much sooner. Just have to look at the state of Magic the Gathering bootlegs, there are some that are VERY good counterfeit cards (and they are getting better everyday - I buy several new rounds every so often to keep tabs on them) and could fool many people, however they don't pass all the tests and that still is only for a single small card where there are far fewer items to worry about compared to a comic (different paper stock for cover interior, inks, glosses, staples etc). jimbo_7071 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLexLuthorCollection Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 Not only do the Goldin folks come across as rank amateurs but they were so unlikeable. In contrast, the Heritage boys are real collectors who come across as low key and knowledgeable. tth2 and Point Five 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
