Punisher art and Marvel's actions 3 3

[SquareChaos]

On 6/10/2023 at 3:03 PM, KirbyCollector said:

The difference is each company did not view those properties as negative to the company itself. Based on a number of articles going back two years, it seems Marvel believed it had a problem and then sought to mitigate it with various changes. When those appeared not to do the trick, they directed the present course. I'm still mystified as to why they decided to take any action at all... It reminds me of that ridiculous political group a few years back who wore Hawaiian shirts (!) as their uniform, leading some pundits to declare that anyone who wore them must be aligned with that group's POV. Thank God that idiocy went away, but I don't think Marvel's treatment of the Punisher will be so easily remedied.

Sometimes characters do run their course and vanish forever, but I'd be shocked if we've seen the last of the Punisher.

We do happen to exist in a time when the mere depiction of something is often viewed as tacit approval for it - the Punisher's murderous vigilantism may in fact make various people at Marvel / Disney nervous in the current climate (I don't have any special insight into this, so I can't say you're wrong)... nevermind the fact that such a response is exactly the point of the character if you bother to examine Frank Castle beyond the surface layer.

However, what we as fans have to always be cognizant of is that these characters are IPs first and characters second. The people responsible for these IPs will change every decade or so and entirely new directions can and will be taken based on current trends and societal norms... or, as I previously mentioned, simply because a writer needs to meet a deadline and wants to take a shortcut by leaning on continuity.

[Andahaion]

Pretty sure Disney’s not ‘going broke’ any time soon. 

[KirbyCollector]

It was not my intention to reflect on this politically, but economically (insofar as our hobby is concerned). I have an odd feeling that this will actually increase prices for the original incarnation of the character... I dabble in Disneyana and have noticed an immense increase in value over the past decade for anything related to IP (such as films, characters, or rides) Disney has shelved (for whatever reason); Splash Mountain merchandise is only the latest example. Nostalgia, as many have noted here, seems to be the main driver of rising prices and Punisher OA may be no exception.

Edited June 11, 2023 by KirbyCollector

[MAR1979]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:48 AM, KirbyCollector said:

It was not my intention to reflect on this politically, but economically (insofar as our hobby is concerned). I have an odd feeling that this will actually increase prices for the original incarnation of the character... I dabble in Disneyana and have noticed an immense increase in value over the past decade for anything related to IP (such as films, characters, or rides) Disney has shelved (for whatever reason); Splash Mountain merchandise is only the latest example. Nostalgia, as many have noted here, seems to be the main driver of rising prices and Punisher OA may be no exception.

While not your intention the last 2 words of the thread were only going to make it political.

Easiest way to get thrown off these forums are to talk politics in non-free-form sub-forums such as a Comics and Original Art. Want to spew out politics then use the "water cooler" type sub-forum.

Honestly the vast majority of folks are both sick + disgusted of hearing endless political rantings regardless of which side of the fence it's coming from, so at least here in the CGC Original Comic Art sub-forum and in the CGC Comics sub-forums hows about you giving us a break!

Edited June 11, 2023 by MAR1979

[CGC Mike]

I have removed a few posts deemed political.  This happened frequently in the thread about this on the comics side.  That thread is now locked.  So, if you want to discuss this topic here, keep politics out of it.

[KirbyCollector]

On 6/11/2023 at 10:12 AM, CGC Mike said:

I have removed a few posts deemed political.  This happened frequently in the thread about this on the comics side.  That thread is now locked.  So, if you want to discuss this topic here, keep politics out of it.

Sorry you had to get involved Sheriff Mike... wasn't aware of another thread about this, I only read this forum and the posters here are a fairly erudite and thoughtful crowd... dang party crashers 

[John E.]

I’m a fan of the Punisher, at least The Punisher of the time of yore. I have a few of my pieces posted on my CAF—the ones I want to share. Yes, I am concerned about having too many Punisher eggs in one basket. Before or after, Punisher has never been valued higher than say Spider-Man or Wolverine pages but they also don’t have much trouble selling either. And as before and after, there have always been collectors who don’t give two chets about the character period. I think on principle there will always be a demand for classic Punisher as there would be for any significant Marvel character. What I have always liked about the character is how he represents raw, unencumbered justice that returns a victims’ sense of control and agency. He isn’t the first or last intellectual property to symbolize that (from Paul Kersey to Eric Draven) . No different than Bruce Banner summoning a repressed power when he gets pushed too far. Those two symbols will always have an appeal. Anyway, maybe I do wish prices would come down but the Romita Jr PWJ comp that I posted shows otherwise. 

[MAR1979]

On 6/11/2023 at 2:32 PM, John E. said:

I’m a fan of the Punisher, at least The Punisher of the time of yore. I have a few of my pieces posted on my CAF—the ones I want to share. Yes, I am concerned about having too many Punisher eggs in one basket. Before or after, Punisher has never been valued higher than say Spider-Man or Wolverine pages but they also don’t have much trouble selling either. And as before and after, there have always been collectors who don’t give two chets about the character period. I think on principle there will always be a demand for classic Punisher as there would be for any significant Marvel character. What I have always liked about the character is how he represents raw, unencumbered justice that returns a victims’ sense of control and agency. He isn’t the first or last intellectual property to symbolize that (from Paul Kersey to Eric Draven) . No different than Bruce Banner summoning a repressed power when he gets pushed too far. Those two symbols will always have an appeal. Anyway, maybe I do wish prices would come down but the Romita Jr PWJ comp that I posted shows otherwise. 

When I started Original Comic Book Art Hobby it was by seeking out what I liked.  The old saying at least for me is true; "But What You Like and you Will Never Lose".  

The time to start worrying is if a Character has 5+ year lapse of not being seen and no way that is happening especially given TV and Movies are now more important for a Character than printed comics. Will be on Daredevil next year then likley a Punisher Season 3 the following year.  Of course I could be wrong and it could be Superman situation where the Character was not seen again after 1993.

Edited June 12, 2023 by MAR1979

[John E.]

On 6/11/2023 at 3:51 PM, MAR1979 said:

When I started Original Comic Book Art Hobby it was by seeking out what I liked.  The old saying at least for me is true; "Buy What You Like and you Will Never Lose".  

The time to start worrying is if a Character has 5+ year lapse of not being seen and no way that is happening especially given TV and Movies are now more important for a Character that printed comics. Will be on Daredevil next year then likley a Punisher Season 3

What is in bold is an idea I hadn’t considered. I’ve learned to not put too much stock in Hollywood coming soons as they too will cancel productions that seem like a sure thing. Think HBO’s Batgirl. 
 

I try my best to buy what I love too, in theory. I also buy when a good opportunity presents itself. My worry with value is that I also trade up a lot and if I had to trade up two Punisher pieces to get a great one, I’d certainly feel the pain if I took a hit of more than 10% on them 

[Michael Browning]

On 6/11/2023 at 5:18 PM, John E. said:

What is in bold is an idea I hadn’t considered. I’ve learned to not put too much stock in Hollywood coming soons as they too will cancel productions that seem like a sure thing. Think HBO’s Batgirl. 

When DC announces a movie, you should sell, sell, sell because it always causes everything associated with that character to drop to rock-bottom prices. 

[CGC Mike]

On 6/11/2023 at 12:13 PM, KirbyCollector said:

Sorry you had to get involved Sheriff Mike... wasn't aware of another thread about this, I only read this forum and the posters here are a fairly erudite and thoughtful crowd... dang party crashers 

So far, so good here.  Only a few posts crossed the line. (just barely)  This thread can remain open as long as it doesn't get political.

[John E.]

On 6/11/2023 at 6:19 PM, Michael Browning said:

When DC announces a movie, you should sell, sell, sell because it always causes everything associated with that character to drop to rock-bottom prices. 

Are you telling me I shouldn’t have vacuumed all this Captain Marvel art??? 

Seriously, we were trying to decide as a family what movie to watch last Friday night so played the trailer for the new Shazam movie and it couldn’t even hold anyone’s attention for 10 seconds. And it’s the trailer!

There always seems to be interest in Batman art but there’s so much. Wonder Woman art seemed to have survived that horrible sequel, but it has to be the sexy stuff. I really wish it impacted the Deodato run so I could afford some. 
 

Vigilante art seems to be enjoying a resurgence. 
 

But yeah, movie or not, anything DC after Knightfall doesn’t capture my attention. 

[Michael Browning]

On 6/11/2023 at 7:46 PM, John E. said:

Are you telling me I shouldn’t have vacuumed all this Captain Marvel art??? 

Seriously, we were trying to decide as a family what movie to watch last Friday night so played the trailer for the new Shazam movie and it couldn’t even hold anyone’s attention for 10 seconds. And it’s the trailer!

There always seems to be interest in Batman art but there’s so much. Wonder Woman art seemed to have survived that horrible sequel, but it has to be the sexy stuff. I really wish it impacted the Deodato run so I could afford some. 
 

Vigilante art seems to be enjoying a resurgence. 
 

But yeah, movie or not, anything DC after Knightfall doesn’t capture my attention. 

Try selling Shazam and Black Adam art after those two duds. Or, Jonah Hex right after that movie came out. Yikes. I was one of the top Jonah Hex art collectors and I hated it so badly that I sold off nearly all my Jonah Hex art at barely-break-even prices just to get rid of it. It's taken all these years for it to even START rebounding.

[MAR1979]

On 6/11/2023 at 7:52 PM, Michael Browning said:

Try selling Shazam and Black Adam art after those two duds. Or, Jonah Hex right after that movie came out. Yikes. I was one of the top Jonah Hex art collectors and I hated it so badly that I sold off nearly all my Jonah Hex art at barely-break-even prices just to get rid of it. It's taken all these years for it to even START rebounding.

On the comics side it was a 10-12 year hype run up of Shazam 28. I wonder if even big time Duane Johnson fans now have any interest whatsoever.   To anyone that spent top dollar on #28, hope you sold it to some other rube before foul stench of that film permeated the market.

Edited June 12, 2023 by MAR1979

[grapeape]

Quality is important. This Frank Miller Punisher just sold for a bit under $5k. It's everything I look for in the character. Believe me, the Punisher will always have value when drawn properly. Frank and  Mike Zeck are my favorite on the character.

Edited June 12, 2023 by grapeape

[Michael Browning]

On 6/11/2023 at 10:01 PM, grapeape said:

Quality is important. This Frank Miller Punisher just sold for a bit under $5k. It's everything I look for in the character. Believe me, the Punisher will always have value when drawn properly. Frank and  Mike Zeck are my favorite on the character.

It sold way too cheap. I was shocked at that piece not hitting $10,000. I wish I'd have been the guy who bought it for under $5,000.

[grapeape]

On 6/11/2023 at 7:45 PM, Michael Browning said:

It sold way too cheap. I was shocked at that piece not hitting $10,000. I wish I'd have been the guy who bought it for under $5,000.

I feel the same way/ I'll be honest, I only found that piece the day of auction. It wasn't what I was targeting. What kept me from getting involved is it would've been a complete impulse buy. I think it's an outstanding piece and at 16x21. 

Frank's stuff goes an ez $10,000 all the time. In my opinion this should've gone for that amount minimum based on the size and quality.

I hope this went to a collector not a dealer. Someone who wanted it as a fan, and feels lucky they got such a good deal.

 

[John E.]

On 6/11/2023 at 10:23 PM, grapeape said:

I hope this went to a collector not a dealer. Someone who wanted it as a fan, and feels lucky they got such a good deal.

 

👼🏼 👼🏼👼🏼👼🏼👼🏼
           
           😩
           🙏 

 

praying to the angels

[MAR1979]

On 6/11/2023 at 7:46 PM, John E. said:

Are you telling me I shouldn’t have vacuumed all this Captain Marvel art??? 

Seriously, we were trying to decide as a family what movie to watch last Friday night so played the trailer for the new Shazam movie and it couldn’t even hold anyone’s attention for 10 seconds. And it’s the trailer!

There always seems to be interest in Batman art but there’s so much. Wonder Woman art seemed to have survived that horrible sequel, but it has to be the sexy stuff. I really wish it impacted the Deodato run so I could afford

Wonder Woman art as DC goes is blue chip. The only thing it does not have going for it are truly classic storylines.

[Garf]

On 6/9/2023 at 4:27 PM, KirbyCollector said:

In the last months Marvel has offed Daredevil, Ms. Marvel (Khan) and the Punisher. Daredevil is due to be "revived" and I don't know what Ms. Marvel's fate is, but the Punisher is being declared really dead -- in large part because Marvel apparently doesn't like the fact he was adopted as a symbol by people they don't like. They changed his uniform logo months ago as a step to disassociate the character from controversy, but the last issue of his current series goes one step further by completely disavowing his reason for being. Will this impact art values for the character? We've seen the impact on Ethan Van Scriver's art due to his leanings... will this be the same, considering how Marvel views the Punisher?

Spoiler

Oh man that Ms Marvel death in Spider-man #26 had me hooked, I could not tear my eyes away ... from the comments section anywhere it got posted, gripping stuff 

If I had to guess I would say that it might stunt the growth of the top end of Punisher art more than stuff further down the pecking order. There is a smaller pool of bidders in that rarefied air and if a few drop off then it might have a greater effect.

I would imagine a lot of the people here happily continue to view stories and characters under the same innocent light that they did when they read them off of the rack. Sure things change over time but that doesn't change our memories. So no doubt that plenty will still be fond of Frank Castle.

Anecdotally I did get rid of most of the Blizzard TCG art I used to own during the height of their scandals, I just didn't feel right owning it at the time, still don't. However, their fandom and sales have happily soldiered on without me. They are big an ugly enough to take the large bumps in the road it seems, so any future decline is going to be really slow / drawn out.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Garf