Jack Kirby's Son Comments On New Stan Lee Documentary 3 3

[shadroch]

On 6/20/2023 at 8:59 AM, MattTheDuck said:

He already has entire threads about this subject - anyone who wants to know his "take" on this subject already knows it.

"His take " being the key phrase there.

[D2]

He worked 14 to 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. 
 

 off, Neal. 
 

Give me a break. 
 

Nuff said was coined by Stan too, Neal. FYI

[EdMann2]

On 6/20/2023 at 12:03 PM, D2 said:

He worked 14 to 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. 
 

 off, Neal. 
 

Give me a break. 
 

Nuff said was coined by Stan too, Neal. FYI

... I took the 'Nuff said' to be kind of sarcastic and done on purpose.  Most people are aware that Stan Lee often used that phrase.

But as far as it being coined by him - afraid not.  That phrase had been around for a lot longer than Stan.  In fact, one of Boston's biggest fans in the early 20th century had it as a nickname, albeit with a different spelling, but still...:  Michael T. McGreevy - Wikipedia

One more example of giving him credit for something he didn't create!   

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by EdMann2

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 6/20/2023 at 1:48 PM, EdMann2 said:

... I took the 'Nuff said' to be kind of sarcastic and done on purpose.  Most people are aware that Stan Lee often used that phrase.

But as far as it being coined by him - afraid not.  That phrase had been around for a lot longer than Stan.  In fact, one of Boston's players in the 1903 World Series (the first one!) had it as a nickname, albeit with a different spelling, but still...:  Michael T. McGreevy - Wikipedia

One more example of giving him credit for something he didn't create! 

While Stan Lee may not have actually coined the term, it's possible that he's the most famous figure to have repeated it frequently.

[Prince Namor]

It's good to see Neal say something. That documentary is gross.

Not because I have a 'take' on it. My take comes from the people who were there and actually worked with Stan.

Like Jack Kirby:

 

"We did the first one for Marvel called The Young Allies and from that, we hopped to The Boy Commandos, (at DC) and they did very well. I believe they were the forerunners of many of the adult teams of comic heroes that we have today. We did use three or four characters in unison, and I believe that strips today like The Fantastic Four or Challengers of the Unknown are probably the descendants of that type of strip."

FROM the 1966 Keynote speech at New York Comicon (printed in TJKC #43 (Summer 2005)

--------------------

Was the concept of the Fantastic Four your idea or Stan Lee’s?

JACK:It was my idea. It was my idea to do it the way it was; my idea to develop it the way it was. I’m not saying that Stan had nothing to do with it. Of course he did.

We talked things out. As things went on, I began to work at home and I no longer came up to the office. I developed all the stuff at home and just sent it in. I had to come up with new ideas to help the strip sell. I was faced with the frustration of having to

come up with new ideas and then having them taken from me.

FROM Bruce Hamilton Interview,  originally published in Rocket’s Blast ComiCollector #81 (1970)

---------------------------

SHERMAN: As the fifties drew to a close, the super-heroes began to return. When you began the Challengers of the Unknown, were you striving more for a super-hero rebirth or for breaking into science fiction and adventure material more?

KIRBY: The issues I did were still formative and I can’t answer for what DC did with them. But they were heading for the super-hero image when I left. In many ways, they were the predecessors of the FF.

FROM Steve Sherman, 1975, reprinted in The Jack Kirby Collector #8, January 1996. (Originally presented in the 1975 Comic Art Convention program book.)

[Prince Namor]

Or Steve Ditko:

Stan Lee, in a Comic Book Marketplace interview (#61, July 1998):
"I didn't write detailed scripts for him [Steve Ditko], I would tell him (as I did Jack [Kirby]) what I thought the story should be and he went home and drew it any way he wanted. There is a very famous scene he did in a Spider-Man story (#33, Feb. 1966] where he was trapped in a subway tunnel and had to lift some heavy weight over his head. I just mentioned the idea but Steve drew it incredibly...devoting, I think, 3 or 4 pages to Spider-Man lifting those weights. I hadn't thought of devoting that many pages to it."

 

DITKO: "...at some point before issue #25 (where I am publicly credited with plotting Spider-man and Dr. Strange), Stan chose to break-off communicating with me. That initiated break-off means no Stan Lee synopses, no kind of Stan Lee input, no Stan Lee "ideas" of any kind on anything. And certainly no "lifting idea" for issue #33 (Feb.1966). I'm on my own in providing a// the story ideas, story continuity, for Spider-man (Dr. Strange)."

from Ditko's published essay A MINI-HISTORY 1. "The Green Goblin" © 2001 S. Ditko

[Prince Namor]

Or John Romita:

CBA: Did you actually co-plot on the Spider-Man books going into the ’70s? There seems to be characters like the Kingpin and Black Widow who have a very strong Romita stamp.
John: "The only thing he used to do from 1966-72 was come in and leave a note on my drawing table saying “Next month, the Rhino.” That’s all; he wouldn’t tell me anything; how to handle it."

John Romita - Comic Book Artist #6  Fall 1999

[Prince Namor]

or John Buscema:

JOHN BUSCEMA (SDCC, 2001): "Did I work at Marvel? I mean, I'm hearing stories I never heard. I don't recall Stan jumping or dancing because we worked over the phone."

JOHN ROMITA: "And you used to love the plots right?"

BUSCEMA: " I hated it. "

[Prince Namor]

Or Dick Ayers:

'Dick told us how Stan called him one day and said, “I can’t think of a story for Sgt. Fury #23. We won’t have an issue unless you think of something!” A worried Dick could not sleep that night and kept Lindy awake too. They talked about story after story until, in the middle of the night, Lindy came up with the idea of the Howlers saving a nun and her young charges. Dick said, “Stan will never go for that, he wants nothing about religion… But I’ll ask him.” When Dick did, Stan said, “What a great idea, I’ll use it.” So they put together a terrific story. When MR.’s finished pages were shown to him, he saw the credits where he was only listed as artist. He went to Stan’s office and asked if he could also be listed as co-plotter. Stan yelled, “Since when did you developed an ego? Get out of here!”'

(Dick actually talks about this story in the foreword he wrote to Sgt Fury Masterworks vol 2)

[Prince Namor]

Or Al Hartley:

AL HARTLEY (Alter Ego #61) - Stan Lee didn’t come up with most of the ideas. He really gave me free rein. Actually, I’d just go ahead and write and draw the stories and then send them in. Stan Goldberg was on a different level because he was really an artist and not a writer. That’s why their working arrangement was different from mine. I didn’t have to have plot approval. It was really remarkable because, normally, an editor goes over the -script before sending it to an artist. Stan gave me total freedom and always accepted my work. Stan and I were on the same wave length.

[Prince Namor]

Or Stan Goldberg:

Stan Goldberg: Jack would sit there at lunch, and tell us these great ideas about what he was going to do next. It was like the ideas were bursting from every pore of his body. It was very interesting because he was a fountain of ideas. Stan would drive me home and we’d plot our stories in the car. I’d say to Stan, “How’s this? Millie loses her job.” He’d say, “Great! Give me 25 pages.” And that took him off the hook.

One time I was in Stan’s office and I told him, “I don’t have another plot.” Stan got out of his chair and walked over to me, looked me in the face, and said very seriously, “I don’t ever want to hear you say you can’t think of another plot.” Then he walked back and sat down in his chair. He didn’t think he needed to tell me anything more.

Jim Amash: Sounds like you were doing most of the writing then.

Goldberg: Well, I was.

[Prince Namor]

Joe Orlando:

Joe Orlando: 

He really didn’t seem to have any ideas, but we worked out a plot, and he sent me the synopsis. I couldn’t believe it when I saw it. In one line, Stan indicated that he wanted a three-page fight sequence, in a garage, or whatever. Nothing else. So I called and asked him what I should do. He said, “You know, throw some tires around, do something with some oil, make it up as you go.'”Well, that didn’t help.

Or:

Yet another classic creator, Joe Orlando, was recruited after him (Bill Everett) and chafed under what he identified as Stan’s desire to have art that looked like Kirby’s, so he quit… admitted Orlando, “was that I wasn’t Jack Kirby. Jack - or Ditko, or just a couple of others - could take a couple of sentences of plot and bring in 20 pages that Stan could dialogue in an afternoon or two. When I drew out the story my way, Stan would go over it and say, ‘this panel needs to be changed’ and ‘this whole page needs to be changed’ and on and on. I didn’t plot it out the way he wanted the story told, so I wound up drawing at least half of every story twice. They weren’t paying enough for that so I quit.”

-True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee

Edited June 20, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

Or Wally Wood... boy oh boy, Wally wasn't shy about sharing his feelings:

Wally Wood: 

Stan was the scripter, but I was coming up with most of the ideas. It finally got to the point where I told him that if he was the writer, he’d have to come up with the plots. So, we just sat across the desk from one another in silence.

Wood: I enjoyed working with Stan [Lee] on Daredevil but for one thing. I had to make up the whole story. He was being paid for writing, and I was being paid for drawing, but he didn't have any ideas. I'd go in for a plotting session, and we'd just stare at each other until I came up with a storyline. I felt like I was writing the book but not being paid for writing.

Evanier: You did write one issue, as I recall--

Wood: One yes [Daredevil #10]. I persuaded him to let me write one by myself since I was doing 99% of the writing already. I wrote it, handed it in, and he said it was hopeless. He said he'd have to rewrite it all and write the next issue himself. Well, I said I couldn't contribute to the storyline unless I got paid something for writing, and Stan said he'd look into it, but after that he only had inking for me. Bob Powell was suddenly pencilling Daredevil.[Later on in the interview] ... I saw [Daredevil #10] when it came out, and Stan had changed five words---less than an editor usually changes. I think that was the last straw.

The Life and Legend of Wallace Wood, Vol. 1

[Prince Namor]

Gil Kane:

 

Gil: Marvel came to me and asked me to do Spider-Man – John Romita was not able to produce pencils for the book every month. I came in and proposed a radical change from what they had been doing.

Steve: You started with the drugs issue.

Gil: Yes, it was the drug issue – a sensational way to grab the headlines. I made up a story and Stan put in the copy. I never thought that issue was anything special – it was simply that we didn’t get a Comics Code stamp. Anyway, Stan liked what I was doing and so, for the next several issues, I did Spider-Man with him. It was a first-rate process, he taught me a lot – he was very critical of certain things and knew what he wanted in the Marvel style and ultimately he showed me how to apply it. Stan made so many requirements of me as a writer, though – a couple of times I said “Look, if you don’t like what I’m doing, do it yourself!” but he didn’t want that, he just wanted to take the artwork home at night and there, from after dinner until 2 or 3 in the morning he’d write (the dialogue)...

 

[D2]

 

 

 

[comicwiz]

On 6/20/2023 at 6:49 AM, ThothAmon said:

May not fit the thread’s narrative but Stan Lee gave him that nickname.  

Speaking of "nicknames" - here's a snippet from a Tom Spurgeon interview where he asks the late, great John Romita Sr about his "unofficial" role as art director. It's a timely one, not only given "Jazzy" John's recent and sad passing , but also in case anyone thinks that Stan Lee giving out nicknames was seen as anything more than an empty and worthless gesture, that fooled no one. It's behavior that is all too eerily reminiscent of when Bob Kane had Sheldon Maldoff over for dinner, only to see Kane handed a massive steak by his mom, while Maldoff is given "the worlds smallest hamburger."

Edited June 20, 2023 by comicwiz

[D2]

On 6/20/2023 at 1:48 PM, EdMann2 said:

... I took the 'Nuff said' to be kind of sarcastic and done on purpose.  Most people are aware that Stan Lee often used that phrase.

But as far as it being coined by him - afraid not.  That phrase had been around for a lot longer than Stan.  In fact, one of Boston's biggest fans in the early 20th century had it as a nickname, albeit with a different spelling, but still...:  Michael T. McGreevy - Wikipedia

One more example of giving him credit for something he didn't create!   

 

I mean, sure. You're probably right. He said it in jest... 

I guess it boils down to the same thing. What do people want to hear? Stan Lee, Stanley Lieber was a . Cool, okay... yeah, great. What has that solved? 
Is this going to dissolve his public opinion? No.
Will the comments and opinions of Jack Kirby's kid resonate with anyone that doesn't already know? No.
Outside of this being conflict for the sake of conflict, will this have any impact whatsoever? 

No.

What I found fascinating, is that Neal Kirby couldn't help himself too, on using all of these hyperbolic statements in his reply. If it's credit he is looking for, (otherwise, why bother saying anything at all), then you won't build credit by creating this fantasy world that no one's going to believe in the first place.

Jack Kirby, the king of comics, worked tirelessly at his desk, living off only cigarettes and coffee, evident from the cloud of smoke emanating from our basement, otherwise known as The Dungeon... My father, the king of comics, the modern Michelangelo! Sculpting our modern day Marvel Family, pushed on, beyond his own ego... Egoless in fact, was the great King Kirby, my father... crafting greatness..

 

Yeah, we get it. Nothing like Stan Lee at all.

Edited June 20, 2023 by D2

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 6/20/2023 at 3:23 PM, D2 said:

I mean, sure. You're probably right. He said it in jest... 

I guess it boils down to the same thing. What do people want to hear? Stan Lee, Stanley Lieber was a . Cool, okay... yeah, great. What has that solved? 
Is this going to dissolve his public opinion? No.
Will the comments and opinions of Jack Kirby's kid resonate with anyone that doesn't already know? No.
Outside of this being conflict for the sake of conflict, will this have any impact whatsoever? 

No.

What I found fascinating, is that Neal Kirby couldn't help himself too, on using all of these hyperbolic statements in his reply. If it's credit he is looking for, (otherwise, why bother saying anything at all), then you won't build credit by creating this fantasy world that no one's going to believe in the first place.

Jack Kirby, the king of comics, worked tirelessly at his desk, living off only cigarettes and coffee, evident from the cloud of smoke emanating from our basement, otherwise known as The Dungeon... My father, the king of comics, the modern Michelangelo! Sculpting our modern day Marvel Family, pushed on, beyond his own ego... Egoless in fact, was the great King Kirby, my father... crafting greatness..

 

Yeah, we get it. Nothing like Stan Lee at all.

His interjection felt exactly like that, to me, of one who simply aims to stir up drama for attention.

That being said, he also deserves his own opinion. I doubt that I'm going to watch the movie, but there's at least some truth to his gripes.

I'm simply as sick of the Stan Lee vs Kirby s**t as I am of the MCU vs DCEU s**t. They both have their positives and their negatives.

[D2]

On 6/20/2023 at 3:37 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

His interjection felt exactly like that, to me, of one who simply aims to stir up drama for attention.

That being said, he also deserves his own opinion. I doubt that I'm going to watch the movie, but there's at least some truth to his gripes.

I'm simply as sick of the Stan Lee vs Kirby s**t as I am of the MCU vs DCEU s**t. They both have their positives and their negatives.

Perfectly put.

[Prince Namor]

No one makes these arguments for Bob Kane.