My pressing experiment

[tth2]

In fact, isn`t apprenticing effectively what Litch, Haspel and Borock have been doing by working with Chris Friesen all these years? (and you could say that Borock was not exactly a novice in detecting resto when he started working with Friesen).

 

I did write something similar to that statement just a few posts earlier.

You will find that duplication is rife on these boards. I just sort of expanded on the point you were making.

 

And welcome to the boards!

[tth2]

Good point, Tim........but here's where i'm still a bit confused; exactly how will the scans be used?? i've assumed that they will look for existing scans initially and then begin to scan all books eventually. this would enable them to perform the same kind of check as Abrams did on the first Ewert book (the FF #3, i believe).

 

but even in this post-ewert world, books being sent in now with micro trimming will likely not have a scan on file anywhere. as such, making a scan now will not aid in the process going forward for that particular book. quite frankly, the process of trying to pull up scans of "some" books (let's say valuable, initially) still seems like a clumsy and costly operation.

 

or do you see scanning the books now, somehow being part of a current resto detection process??

Good points, Harry, and I realized I mis-stated my qualification. I wrote "IF the resubmission of this trimmed book was done post-Ewert", and should have said "IF the original submission was identified as a trimmed PLOD post-Ewert".

 

As you rightly point out, if the original submission was done pre-Ewert, then CGC might very well not have scanned the book and kept a copy in their database, and thus would've had nothing to compare the resubbed book against.

 

My understanding from one of Borock's responses to the Ewert fiasco was that they were going to add scans/comparisons to their arsenal of resto detection techniques. How they will actually do this is a good question, as I agree with you it could be cumbersome, and it will be limited in that they will only have scans made post-Ewert and Heritage's archives to use for comparison purposes. But, something is better than nothing, and for them to NOT have been maintaining a database of scans of all graded books all along still kind of blows me away.

[tth2]

Frankly, apprenticing under someone who has beaten the CGC system would be an even better qualification.

 

Vegas doesn't employ criminals any more... but for a long time they hired away the people who had cheated them, to improve their detection skills...

 

Someone who has studied under Dupcak-Ewert-etc would be an asset...

 

Just some food for thought.

Very good point. Would apprenticing under Dupcak be all that helpful, though? It doesn't appear that CGC ever had much difficulty detecting his work.

[joe_collector]

It doesn't appear that CGC ever had much difficulty detecting his work.

 

That is not true at all.

[tth2]

It doesn't appear that CGC ever had much difficulty detecting his work.

 

That is not true at all.

Sorry, guess I've missed that story. Could you elaborate? Certainly, no one here seems to have elevated any Dupcak "missed resto" books to the same level as the Batman 11 and Ewert "missed resto" books which have been discussed at length here.

[OldGuy]

It doesn't appear that CGC ever had much difficulty detecting his work.

 

That is not true at all.

Sorry, guess I've missed that story. Could you elaborate? Certainly, no one here seems to have elevated any Dupcak "missed resto" books to the same level as the Batman 11 and Ewert "missed resto" books which have been discussed at length here.

 

Just as a side note, Hammer is the one that pointed out the Batman #11.

[blazingbob]

This thread just points out that a majority of books are not worth getting pressed. $577 worth of pressing to get these grades?

 

Guessing that after grading these books price out around $1600 I would be very concerned that you've added almost 50% to the cost of the books.

 

Bad enough the cost of the books + grading fees involved ($250 + shipping) + the pressing fees ($577) and I would wonder what type of return you are getting.

[uclapeterg]

 

You too?

 

 

Maybe there's a few more of us than I thought...let's bloody hope so!

 

[Artboy99]

post removed.

 

Artboy99

[lighthouse]

And neither can anyone else...

[Red Hook]

And I still want to know the story behind the Western Penn pedigree.

[sterlingcomics]

I would wonder what type of return you are getting.

 

Bingo. Pressing is apparently a lucrative business.

[Norrin_Radd]

And I still want to know the story behind the Western Penn pedigree.

 

Think linmoth will ever spill the beans?

[Timely]

Regarding restoration detection:

 

The very first CGC book I bought was a 9.2 Iron Man #1 from the Western Penn collection.

No offense to the seller as the book he sold was a blue label CGC, but as soon as I got it I suspected trimming just by the way the book looked despite the fact it is in a CGC holder BLUE LABEL. It has some wonkyness on the top cover, in that the part of the cover nearest the spine is noticeably taller than the rest of the cover. Miscut? I think not. The right side lines up far to perfectly from front cover through to the back cover. It immediately suggests trimmed by looking at it. Basically it looks like someone took a ruler, put it on the right side and cut straight through the entire comic. Placed next to other 1968 marvel books it is almost 1/8th of an inch narrower on the width of the book.

That point then and there I already knew I couldnt trust the label of the books.

It was pretty clear to me that CGC can not detect all forms of restoration.

 

/shrug

 

That tallness that you describle near the spine at the top edge is a common printing defect. I see that on at least 20% of the late 60's Marvel that come across my desk!

 

West

[Red Hook]

And I still want to know the story behind the Western Penn pedigree.

 

Think linmoth will ever spill the beans?

 

No. And until then....I would observe caution. Not enough of the backstory is available to know how books are being fed to the market.

[nearmint]

This thread just points out that a majority of books are not worth getting pressed. $577 worth of pressing to get these grades?

 

I agree. Further, I don't really understand those that think there's something wrong with Matt agreeing to press all ten books. Matt states whether the books would benefit from pressing, and gives an estimation as to what he believes the books will grade out at after pressing.

 

It's up to the submitter to look at it from a financially standpoint, and decide whether it's worth it to outlay that amount of cash or not.

[Jolly Roger-migration]

Did Matt ever give you a breakdown of grades for each issue prior to him doing work on the books?

 

It appears as if he gave a wide range of grades (8.0-9.6). Since he performed some sort of work, there still was one book with an 8.0, and no books with 9.6. So how exactly did he come up with that range of grades?

 

This "experiment" only shows that Matt was unable to provide an increase in grade, and he could not detect certain resto.

[blazingbob]

If Matt quoted me $577 in pressing my first take would be

 

How much do I have into the books?

 

What's my probable outcome if the books all come back the grade I think? Translation - What would they sell for?

 

What's my downside? What if they don't come back in the grades I think? What's the worse they can come out?

 

What would the books sell for raw?

 

Am I spending more money than the upside potential of them being in CGC holders. This is VERY important in the "Do I get it graded" risk/reward scenario.

 

I think with this scenario the books may have done better being sold raw without adding $827 of cost into them.

[Jolly Roger-migration]

 

Susan, Tracy, and Matt should all have professional credentials involving paper restoration, as well as practical application. They all have business that involve the daily involvement of restoration work. They should be involved in older and newer methods of restoration, from both a professional and amatuer level.

 

CGC, on the other hand, has only their graders to detect restoration. While they may be very good at certain forms of restoration, they certainly will be fooled by newer methods utilized by restorers. I am unaware of any restoration work performed by either Borock or Haspel prior to their working at CGC. Do they have any practical knowldge of restoration?

[Jolly Roger-migration]

If Matt quoted me $577 in pressing my first take would be

 

How much do I have into the books?

 

What's my probable outcome if the books all come back the grade I think? Translation - What would they sell for?

 

What's my downside? What if they don't come back in the grades I think? What's the worse they can come out?

 

What would the books sell for raw?

 

Am I spending more money than the upside potential of them being in CGC holders. This is VERY important in the "Do I get it graded" risk/reward scenario.

 

I think with this scenario the books may have done better being sold raw without adding $827 of cost into them.

Excellent points, Bob. Of course, you view the scenario from a dealer perspective. You look at the "risk/reward" possibilities.

 

There are a few people who don't see the logic in this. There are more reasons for submitting than just from a profit potential.