The Edgar Church Mile high copy of Superman # 1 2 2

[buttock]

On 10/14/2023 at 6:50 AM, DanCooper said:

When CGC first open it's doors in Parsippany, New Jersey, Jon Berk, myself and some other collectors were invited out to their facilities. CGC wanted to get a collector's perspective and feedback on the certification process.

The subject of Mile Highs with small amounts of color touch and/or glue was brought up. It was highly debatable topic between the collectors and CGC. The collectors felt the books should be treated no differently for restoration, whether it was a Mile High or some nondescript book from the 1960s or 70s. Books should be in purple, restored slabs.

CGC wanted those Mile Highs, with small amounts of restoration, in blue labels from the get go. Their sentiment was the books were from a historic collection and the work done was minimal. The common ground was that the books, at least, needed to have what was done on the label, whether it was blue or purple.

At the time I would have agreed with you.  In hindsight, CGC made the wiser choice inadvertently as people would have otherwise chased those books down with an x-acto to maul them further in the name of profit.  

[lou_fine]

On 10/13/2023 at 10:34 PM, Aman619 said:

No. The “restoration is okay” period was a decade later once Sothebys began their auctions.  Now that comics were in a big time worldwide renowned auction house, where most other collectibles allow restoration, and Susan was a very well respected and classically trained restorer, and well known but the grading committee, restoration gained support as inevitable in our hobby.  For a while….  One could actually but a beater key, pay for restoration, and flip it for a profit.  For a while anyway. 

Hey Aman;

Although I find that you are pretty much always spot on when it comes to your comic book history and analysis, it appears that this is one of the very few and rare times that you are actually incorrect with respect to your time frame here.  

I bought my first Overstreet Guide (i.e the Barks Porky Pig cover edition) in 1977 and I clearly remember the guide a few years later having an extensive multi-page section written by Ernie Gerber and Bill Sarill where they discussed the preservation and restoration of comic book, including a section on the value of restored comic books.  Depending upon the type and extent of the restoration, it was stated that the increase in valuation for restored comic books could be enormous when compared to unrestored books in their original lower condition grade.    

Needless to say, this marketplace sentiment did not last very long due apparently to the proclivity for this restoration work to go undisclosed upon resale even though it was seen as a net positive in terms of adding value to a book.   I remember switching my collecting focus from new books to vintage pre-hero and GA books back in '87 and the big red flag back then was to watch out for and to avoid restored books.  Especially when you had dealers like Mark Wilson around at the time who just couldn't pass up doing some type of work on a book no matter how nice it already was.  Still remember asking him in every which way possible if he had done anything to a book prior to me expressing an interest in purchasing it from him and this was quite a few years before Sotheby's arrived with their comic book auctions in 1991/92.  

[lou_fine]

On 10/14/2023 at 7:20 AM, Robot Man said:

Comics either have restoration or they don’t. Wasn’t that a big reason CGC became into existence?

Can I ask you a question here..........are you trying to give us a "funny" here on a slow dreary boring Saturday or are you actually serious here?  

Especially since this is now 2023 and we are no longer living in the fantasy world of 2000 to 2004 when CGC first started up and we were all so innocent and naive thinking that CGC was looking after our best interests before we got that rude awakening in 2005 when CGC was outed on the boards here and we found out what was really actually happening behind the scene.  

If you reread the definition of restoration back then prior to 2005 and you look at what's happening to books in today's certified marketplace, it would appear that CGC has actually institutionalized restoration making it part and parcel of the whole certification process.  Especially since grading standards have been fine tuned to the point whereby many submittors are now afraid of submitting a book into CGC for straight through grading without having it go through the CCS "prep" process first, less their book get hammered during the subsequent grading process.   

In fact, with CGC firmly ensconced as the de facto certification company within the marketplace since its inception, it would appear that restoration (although they no longer call or define it as such) has grown from almost nothing into the burgeoning industry it is today within the comic book marketplace.  

Edited October 15, 2023 by lou_fine

[Aman619]

On 10/15/2023 at 2:04 AM, lou_fine said:

Hey Aman;

Although I find that you are pretty much always spot on when it comes to your comic book history and analysis, it appears that this is one of the very few and rare times that you are actually incorrect with respect to your time frame here.  

I bought my first Overstreet Guide (i.e the Barks Porky Pig cover edition) in 1977 and I clearly remember the guide a few years later having an extensive multi-page section written by Ernie Gerber and Bill Sarill where they discussed the preservation and restoration of comic book, including a section on the value of restored comic books.  Depending upon the type and extent of the restoration, it was stated that the increase in valuation for restored comic books could be enormous when compared to unrestored books in their original lower condition grade.    

Needless to say, this marketplace sentiment did not last very long due apparently to the proclivity for this restoration work to go undisclosed upon resale even though it was seen as a net positive in terms of adding value to a book.   I remember switching my collecting focus from new books to vintage pre-hero and GA books back in '87 and the big red flag back then was to watch out for and to avoid restored books.  Especially when you had dealers like Mark Wilson around at the time who just couldn't pass up doing some type of work on a book no matter how nice it already was.  Still remember asking him in every which way possible if he had done anything to a book prior to me expressing an interest in purchasing it from him and this was quite a few years before Sotheby's arrived with their comic book auctions in 1991/92.  

My first guide was #12 so I missed the hobby’s stance on restoration in the 70s.  I can’t speak to how collectors responded to the Sarill article then,  but clearly recall it as on the upward trend due to the Sotheby’s auctions a decade later.  Susan was trained by Sarill and her business boomed as dealers and collectors bought low grade books shipped to her, for the next auction…. So I guess this is a recurring thing - or used to be - that rose twice.  Certainly many collectors have liked restored books because they get a nice looking copy at a low price.  But I was always a high grade no resto collector, and was surprised when it became fashionable in the 90s.