Detached Covers and/or Centerfolds 9.0? 1 1

[Mokiguy]

I grade my own comics for my own satisfaction. I've never sold a comic but work hard and trying to get the grade close for my own comic database. Up until the other day, and because I have been using an on line grading tool along with the Overstreet Grading Guidelines, I never graded a comic with a detached centerfold even at only one staple above a 4.5 .............. that's how Overstreet has it ........ 4.5 max for one staple, 2.5 max completely detached. And then I watched a video of some long time collector on YouTube and he had a cheat sheet, and on his cheat sheet he has comics grading as high as 9.0 with one staple detached and 7.0 with complete centerfold detachment. He also showed CGC slabs in the video that graded as high as 7.5s with noted detached centerfolds. I understand the rest of the book matters, but have I been wrong all this time automatically downgrading to 4.5 with one staple and max of 2.5 with a completely detached centerfold?

And then there's the detached covers .......... his cheat sheet max 6.0 one staple, 4.0 completely detached. Overstreet has it at max 4.5 one staple, max 2.5 completely detached. So what gives?

[Tom789]

It's just a different grading standard set up by CGC, and as the dominant, almost monopolistic, grader in the market, it gets to set the rules.

[Jesse-Lee]

I'd be interested to see the video and the books involved. I know in my own personal experience, I have one CGC book with a noted detached centerfold that is a 3.0. In my opinion, I think it would grade a little higher than that without the detached centerfold, so I'm not sure how much it knocks down the grade. It should be noted that I bought it prior to being able to search for grading notes and the seller didn't disclose the notes, but I did pay fairly close to (and not over) the going 3.0 FMV price when I bought it. I'm not mad about it, I think it's a sweet-looking book and I'm happy to own it:

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

I wouldn't trust YouTube videos.

[Mokiguy]

On 7/14/2023 at 6:49 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

I wouldn't trust YouTube videos.

So do you think that he made up fake CGC slabs for the video then? Here's a screen shot from within the video showing a 6.5 grade with two centerfolds detached ......

Edited July 14, 2023 by Mokiguy

[mrc]

On 7/13/2023 at 4:59 PM, Mokiguy said:

And then I watched a video of some long time collector on YouTube and he had a cheat sheet, and on his cheat sheet he has comics grading as high as 9.0 with one staple detached and 7.0 with complete centerfold detachment. He also showed CGC slabs in the video that graded as high as 7.5s with noted detached centerfolds. I understand the rest of the book matters, but have I been wrong all this time automatically downgrading to 4.5 with one staple and max of 2.5 with a completely detached centerfold?

Here's one of my books.........with detached centerfold

 

[marvelmaniac]

There is no black and white in grading, it is all about individual perspective. Yes you can see obvious defects, however, there is no guide that states a book in VF/NM 9.0 with (insert one additional defect here) would drop to a (insert grade here). IE;

"Book is a VF/NM 9.0 but has (enter defect) and you could look at the guide and it would tell you that a VF/NM 9.0 with only one additional (insert defect here) will drop to (insert grade here)", that would make life easier, unfortunately that does not exist.(For us to see)

I also graded my own books, graded/cataloged/photographed over 2000 books in 2015, there are numerous books that would be a higher grade if not for one additional defect such as a loose/detached centerfold, subscription crease, small tear, writing on the inside, coupon cut out, etc. When I cataloged and graded a book like this it would be noted, IE: "VG 4.0" "(Would be FN 6.0 except for the subscription crease)", basically you are cataloging the book with that single additional defect that will lower the grade with a Blue Label and a Green Label grade, the green label grade will be the grade without the additional defect, the Blue label grade would be with the defect, how much does it lose... 

Take the VF/NM 9.0 book pictured above, what would the grade be if that were a Blue Label rather than a Green Label, would it drop 1 point to a VF 8.0 or would it drop much lower to a FN 6.0 or all the way down to a VG 4.0 where a loose/detached centerfold at one staple is allowed.  Since a book is graded in it's entirety assigning a VG 4.0 would be overkill, but by how much?

Here are examples of how I did it, this is from my "Adventures Of The Big Boy" collection.

64)*GD 2.0 (*WRITING ON COVER, CROSSWORD PUZZLE FILLED OUT)

65)VG 4.0

67)*FN 6.0 (*WOULD BE VF 8.0 EXCEPT FOR 1/8" TEAR AND CORNER CREASE ON REAR COVER)

68)VF 8.0

70)*VG- 3.5 (*WOULD BE FN/VF 7.0 EXCEPT FOR TEAR AND TAPE REPAIR)

73)FN/VF 7.0

74)*FR/GD 1.5 (* WOULD BE FN 6.0 EXCEPT FOR TAPE REPAIR, PIECES MISSING AND WRITING ON REAR COVER)

75)FN 6.0 (*1/4" TEAR ON FRONT EDGE OF REAR COVER, STAIN ON INSIDE OF FRONT COVER AND 1ST PAGE)

76)FN 6.0

77)*FN 6.0 (*WOULD BE VF 8.0 EXCEPT FOR 1/4" TEAR ON FRONT EDGE OF FRONT COVER)

81)*VG 4.0 (*WOULD BE VF 8.0 EXCEPT FOR TAPE REPAIR ON REAR COVER)

82)GD 2.0

88)*VG 4.0 (*WOULD BE VF+ 8.5 EXCEPT WORD PUZZLES HAVE BEEN FILLED OUT)

92)*VG 4.0 (*WOULD BE VF 8.0 EXCEPT FOR WATER DAMAGE AT BOTTOM OF BOOK)

94)FN+ 6.5

95)VF 8.0

96)*VG 4.0 (*WOULD BE VF/NM 9.0 EXCEPT FOR 1/2" TEAR ON BOTTOM EDGE AND 1/2" PIECE MISSING FROM LOWER RIGHT CORNER)

98)*VG- 3.5 (*WOULD BE VF/NM 9.0 EXCEPT FOR 1" PIECE MISSING FROM LOWER RIGHT CORNER AND VERTICAL CREASE)

99)*FN/VF 7.0 (*WOULD BE VF/NM 9.0 EXCEPT FOR LOWER CORNER CREASING STARTING ON REAR PAGES, GETS BETTER WITH EACH PAGE TOWARDS FRONT)

 

[Mokiguy]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:21 AM, marvelmaniac said:

There is no black and white in grading, it is all about individual perspective. Yes you can see obvious defects, however, there is no guide that states a book in VF/NM 9.0 with (insert one additional defect here) would drop to a (insert grade here). IE;

"Book is a VF/NM 9.0 but has (enter defect) and you could look at the guide and it would tell you that a VF/NM 9.0 with only one additional (insert defect here) will drop to (insert grade here)", that would make life easier, unfortunately that does not exist.(For us to see)

I also graded my own books, graded/cataloged/photographed over 2000 books in 2015, there are numerous books that would be a higher grade if not for one additional defect such as a loose/detached centerfold, subscription crease, small tear, writing on the inside, coupon cut out, etc. When I cataloged and graded a book like this it would be noted, IE: "VG 4.0" "(Would be FN 6.0 except for the subscription crease)", basically you are cataloging the book with that single additional defect that will lower the grade with a Blue Label and a Green Label grade, the green label grade will be the grade without the additional defect, the Blue label grade would be with the defect, how much does it lose... 

Take the VF/NM 9.0 book pictured above, what would the grade be if that were a Blue Label rather than a Green Label, would it drop 1 point to a VF 8.0 or would it drop much lower to a FN 6.0 or all the way down to a VG 4.0 where a loose/detached centerfold at one staple is allowed.  Since a book is graded in it's entirety assigning a VG 4.0 would be overkill, but by how much?

Here are examples of how I did it, this is from my "Adventures Of The Big Boy" collection.

64)*GD 2.0 (*WRITING ON COVER, CROSSWORD PUZZLE FILLED OUT)

65)VG 4.0

67)*FN 6.0 (*WOULD BE VF 8.0 EXCEPT FOR 1/8" TEAR AND CORNER CREASE ON REAR COVER)

68)VF 8.0

70)*VG- 3.5 (*WOULD BE FN/VF 7.0 EXCEPT FOR TEAR AND TAPE REPAIR)

73)FN/VF 7.0

74)*FR/GD 1.5 (* WOULD BE FN 6.0 EXCEPT FOR TAPE REPAIR, PIECES MISSING AND WRITING ON REAR COVER)

75)FN 6.0 (*1/4" TEAR ON FRONT EDGE OF REAR COVER, STAIN ON INSIDE OF FRONT COVER AND 1ST PAGE)

76)FN 6.0

77)*FN 6.0 (*WOULD BE VF 8.0 EXCEPT FOR 1/4" TEAR ON FRONT EDGE OF FRONT COVER)

81)*VG 4.0 (*WOULD BE VF 8.0 EXCEPT FOR TAPE REPAIR ON REAR COVER)

82)GD 2.0

88)*VG 4.0 (*WOULD BE VF+ 8.5 EXCEPT WORD PUZZLES HAVE BEEN FILLED OUT)

92)*VG 4.0 (*WOULD BE VF 8.0 EXCEPT FOR WATER DAMAGE AT BOTTOM OF BOOK)

94)FN+ 6.5

95)VF 8.0

96)*VG 4.0 (*WOULD BE VF/NM 9.0 EXCEPT FOR 1/2" TEAR ON BOTTOM EDGE AND 1/2" PIECE MISSING FROM LOWER RIGHT CORNER)

98)*VG- 3.5 (*WOULD BE VF/NM 9.0 EXCEPT FOR 1" PIECE MISSING FROM LOWER RIGHT CORNER AND VERTICAL CREASE)

99)*FN/VF 7.0 (*WOULD BE VF/NM 9.0 EXCEPT FOR LOWER CORNER CREASING STARTING ON REAR PAGES, GETS BETTER WITH EACH PAGE TOWARDS FRONT)

 

Yes, I understand your rational for your own books, and in essence that's what I am trying to do with mine. But your "would be could be except for ........" is exactly the point I'm trying to get away from. I am sure we will never know exactly how much a partially or fully detached centerfold or cover will lower a grade, but as in the example I pasted from that Youtube video, it is a book with two complete centerfold pages detached and it still got a "blue" 6.5, whereas Overstreet says 2.5 max for a single centerfold detached. 2.5 for one detached centerfold vs 6.5 for two completely detached center pages ........ that's not even close, and that's what my original post was questioning.

[marvelmaniac]

I did mine for me, for reference of what I have, again, no Black and White, lots of Gray.

The difference between "what is" and "would be, could be" is a Blue Label and Green Label with CGC.

A book is graded in its entirety, not by its most major defect.

A NM 9.4 with a detached centerfold would probably get a Green Label which basically states "would be, could be" if that one defect were not present, how much of a hit that same book would take if it were to be graded with the defect being taken into consideration, , pretty sure that CGC has set some form of guidelines internally for these situations.

The question then becomes, how did CGC determine the amount a grade will drop for one defect on an otherwise almost flawless book, at one point in the past they had a meeting and determined how much of a hit a book like this would take for only one major defect once they did that and "consistently" used that as their reference it became a precedent, however, CGC is not going to share all of their grading secrets with us, otherwise, we would no longer need them.

My suggestion would be to buy the CGC Grading Guide and see what that has to say, if anything, about this situation.

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/10586/cgc-guide-grading-comics-nelson/