Mokiguy

So what's the grade? How can four people see this book so differently? .... 4.5/5.0 ..... 5.0 ..... 6.5/7.0 ..... 8.0 ....

Well you've proven the point now haven't you. I have never said a mean or even unkind thing to you, and yet every single time you have commented on anything I post, you go out of your way to ridicule or demean me. If that's what gives you pleasure, then go ahead and enjoy yourself, But take it from me. If you are really as wise and experienced as you so boastfully proclaim yourself to be, then you could do a great service here by helping newbies gain some knowledge rather than trying to demean them. It's not just me, I've seen your comments to others as well when you think their comment or question is beneath you. You almost always mock them or make fun of them rather than trying to help them. You have a chip on your shoulder my friend.

How come you're always a jerk? Most folks here answer question the best they can. They try and be helpful if they can, but you never seem to have a nice thing to say to me and to many others, especially those new to this hobby. So why do you have this big chip on your shoulder and why do you seem to garner pleasure from trying to make others look small?

No, that's not accurate. Here is a cut and paste about sizes from the net ......................... Know the difference in "standard" comic book sizes. The earliest comic books of the Golden Age contained 64 pages, enough to support 4 or 5 adventures within their covers. As the cost of paper gradually increased, the number of pages was reduced to 48, which accommodated up to 3 graphic stories, and then to 32, which usually meant a maximum of 2 stories. Also, while comic books consistently kept a height of 10 1/2 inches (26.7 cm), their width narrowed from the Golden Age dimension of 7 3/4 inches (19.7 cm) to a Silver Age width of 7 1/8 inches (18.1 cm), then widened to 7 1/4 inches (18.4 cm) in the 1970s and 1980s before narrowing to 6 7/8 inches (17.5 cm) in the 1990s. Bags for regular comics are thus broken into the following sizes: Golden Age: 7 3/4 x 10 1/2 inches (19.7 x 26.7 cm). This size accommodates Golden Age comics from 1943 up to Silver Age comics published in 1960. Silver Age: 7 1/8 x 10 1/2 inches (18.1 x 26.7 cm). This size accommodates some late Golden Age comics published in 1951 as well as Silver Age comics published as late as 1965, including annuals and 80-page giants published during that period. Regular: 7 1/4 x 10 1/2 inches (18.4 x 26.7 cm). This size accommodates comics published after 1965, including the late Silver Age and Bronze Age comics of the 1970s to mid-1980s. Current: 6 7/8 x 10 1/2 inches (17.5 x 26.7 cm). This size accommodates comics published since 1990.

I'm not a bean counter so have no clue, but I've wondered just how much extra profit the makers of comics made by trimming a 1/2" of paper off of comic widths around 1960 to go from 7 3/4" wide to 7 1/4", and then how much more again by lopping off another 3/8" inch around 1990 to wind up with a comic that's now down to 6 7/8" wide for modern day comics. At least they left the height relatively unchanged. Maybe there's an ex bean counter that now collects comics that will read this and let me know.

I'm not so sure that I could agree with that. First of all, in this computerized digital age that we live in, all those items that a book is graded on (as in my cheat sheet) are only a simple enter key stroke per item and then hit "print" after the last item and your done. Every reason for the grade is spelled out. I am sure that they must have a sheet that they already use as they grade, just not shared with the public. And as to whether or not there would be demand. As I said, it would not involve any extra time or expense other than a sheet of paper and some ink. Ask anyone that has ever had a comic graded if they would like a complete cheat sheet on everything that was graded that would be included with every submission, and I think you would have a 100% yes ............ if they didn't find a way to charge extra.

In previous posts I've mentioned that I also collect Morgan and Peace silver dollars, and I have the same question there as I ask here. And as I've said before, I rarely get a coin graded and as of yet have never gotten a comic graded, so this is purely curiosity on my part, wondering what others think. In coins it might be expressed on the holder as XF-45 (extremely fine - 45) or MS-63 (mint state - 63), and in comics it's 4.0 (very good) or 7.5 (very fine -), but neither one tells me much of anything, especially why. All you get is a number and perhaps a few words like white pages or cleaned. So isn't a grade in a way an appraisal? Since it pretty much establishes a value, and even helps raise the value by the very nature of it being appraised. Why is that different than a home inspection or appraisal, or a vehicle inspection and appraisal? It's all spelled out. The oil pan drips, small tear in the passenger seat, tires are mismatched, rust in the left rear quarter panel etc. You know why it was given the grade and value, but coins and comics remain a mystery, and as the curious novice to this hobby that I still am, it makes no sense. The suspicious nature in me thinks that the reason they keep grades mysterious is the same reason attorneys, courts and judges, still use archaic jargon and a 2,000 year old dead language for legal terms. If it was all simple and in plain English, maybe they couldn't charge $300 an hour. And one last thing ........ I grade my own comics and use this cheat sheet below. And I add this to the back side of every backing board of every comic I own, so if I grade a comic a 5.5, it's because of what those 38 items say about the comic, no mystery, and anyone can agree or disagree, but at least they understand why I graded it as I did. Why don't grading companies do the same? So as I said at the outset ...... I'm curious how folks in the hobby much longer than me feel about this.

That all makes sense except for the insuring part ...... that I don't understand. Who is paying the insurance and to whom and for what reason? Or are you just meaning about the cost to insure for shipping in case the book gets lost or damaged?

So then why did you say I don't get it when you just said the exact thing I said in my opening comment ....... because they can.

You are right ..... that was poor taste and I edited that out. But it would be nice if you took the time to actually answer my question rather than trying to denigrate me personally. Don't let facts get in my way you say ................ but what facts are you speaking of? you certainly haven't shared any. Everyone here gets it is not a fact.

So just why do grading services charge more for the same grading service and the same holder if the book is more valuable? It’s the same way with coins, and I never understood why. Are they spending more time grading a $2,000 book compared to a $100 book. If so, then the folks getting a $100 book are getting ripped off because the grader is not taking the time to properly evaluate a lesser value submission compared to a higher dollar submission. The only conclusion I can come to is because they can. Like what are you going to do about it?Grading is not like an auction where the auctioneer or auction company gets more money if the item sells for more. In an auction if an item sells for more, it is because bidders decided it was worth more and ran up the bid. And if nobody starts the bidding at the opening amount, the the auctioneer lowers the open until somebody bids. But a graded item is not the same. There are no bidders establishing the opening price, no guarantee that it will sell for a higher amount until it is actually sold. What say you?

Of course it's a "Funny" post ................. aren't we talking comics here?

Take a look at this reprint of Time #1 for sale on eBay .................... look at the back cover at the bottom right. This one says Printed in India which of course is not where the first edition was printed. So look at yours ................ https://www.ebay.com/itm/186275629399

No, this thread has proven a number of different things, mainly that there are many different opinions about what makes a comic valuable. But it's also become evident that some members, perhaps because they don't know enough themselves, for some inexplicable reason believe that their time is better spent analyzing and criticize fellow members of this forum rather than adding to the thread by commenting on the topic,

Your explanation about what happened to many old comics is a good one, and something I didn't consider when comparing coins to comics. But that still does not explain why one issue commands such a higher price than another. And that really was my question, wasn't it? I'm sure that a key issue was stuffed into that back pocket on the bicycle ride and read to death just like every other non key issue since nobody new a key issue from a hole in the ground back when they were printed 50 or more years ago. I think why this thread got off track was because I used the word "greed", and nobody wants to think of themselves as greedy, and so most of the comments tried to explain away that word when it came to them. In hindsight, that was not the best choice of a word for my question. But the other word I used, speculation was. Whether my simplistic assumption of print runs staying pretty much the same through out a year, or comics being worn out and thrown away at pretty much the same rate, key issue or not since no one new an issue would be a key issue at the time of printing. Not affinity for a character, not nostalgia, nothing explains the price disparity then other than speculation. And that's OK. My question was trying to understand why. It's still bloody nuts if you really think about it. Paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for a comic book. So thanks for all the comments, and my apologies for the word greed ............. bad choice of a word on my part.

Did you ever see the movie Cool hand Luke? The prison boss says to Luke ....... "What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach". Well what we've got here is a failure to communicate. And maybe you didn't mean it in a derogatory way, or maybe you did when you wrote, (I think it means coin collecting is a good fit for you, whereas other types of collecting might not be right for you). Can we stick to the point of the post rather than trying to psychoanalyze the poster? But I forgive you for that slight miscalculation. I think I need to call BS on anyone that shells out many hundreds or thousands for a comic book and then denies that there's any greed or even speculation, but rather $3,000 spent because they have an affinity for the character. You can have the same affinity for the character on a common $5 Spider-man Comic vs Amazing Fantasy #15. If you are willing to spend thousands on a book like that, it's not because you like Spidey and he makes you feel all warm and fuzzy and reminds you of your youth. I collect DC and in particular the silver and early bronze age superhero DC jenres. I have over 500 and I'm still collecting (sorry SOTIcollector, but it's a good fit for me). But nearly all have been had for a few bucks to maybe $10 to $20 for a few select issues. They are mostly average 4.5 to 7.0 condition with some I believe would grade in the 8's to low 9's if I would ever want to get them graded (I never will), and a few down around 2.0. I'm retired and have a certain affinity for Superman and Superboy, and Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, Wonder Woman and Batman, Green Lantern, Aquaman and others because I grew up reading them and collecting them reminds me of my youth. But it reminds me of my youth on $2 to $10 comics. Unless a person is wealthy, spending hundreds and thousands on a comic is either hope greed or speculation and not just affinity with a character.

I understand supply and demand, but the point I was trying to establish is that the supply about the coins I mentioned was created at the time of minting. and the demand is higher among scarcer coins, but the scarcity is and always has been real from the day they were minted. Comics on the other hand seem to have their demand established by pure speculation among collectors because a certain character showed up and has little to do with the amount of any particular issue produced. And that to me seems odd ....... sort of backward and ripe for a collapse some day like Tulips in Holland in the 1600 hundreds or more recently the dot.com bubble of the late 90's where people were throwing money at and buying any stock that was tech or had dot.com in it's name. I don't know much about sports trading cards, but didn't they also have a similar bubble and collapse and now only certain prized cards have any value? Personally I think a true scarcity is what should drive demand and not greed and speculation. But that's just my humble opinion.

Now before you answer, read my explanation. I also collect Morgan and Peace Silver Dollars. And certain coins are more in demand and bring higher prices than others. Every coin is worth more if it is in better condition, but assuming condition is equal, the reason some Morgan or Peace dollars are worth more than others is rarity. For instance I'll just use a random year say 1881. There were 4 US mints that made Morgan silver dollars that year. The San Francisco mint made 12,760,000 Morgan dollars that year, and the 1881 P (Philadelphia mint) made 9.163,000, both are considered to be common year and mint Morgan dollars and are worth the least. The New Orleans mint made 5,708,000 Morgan dollars that year and they are worth more than the P and S mint mark Morgans because fewer were made. The last mint was Carson City Nevada, and they only made 296,000 Morgans that year and they are worth the most of all. If it were graded like a comic, an 8.5 Carson City would be worth about 5 times as much as a New Orleans Morgan and about 10 times what a San Francisco or Philadelphia 1881 Morgan is worth. Again, assuming condition is equal, value is all about scarcity. So all that above brings me to this. I've looked at comic runs and though they have fluctuated over time depending on the popularity of the comic, the runs stayed pretty much the same month to month as long as a particular comic was still popular. If an issue printed 600,000 copies in September, then give or take a few issues, the October and November issues were also printed at the same rate, about 600,000 comics. And that's the rub ........ let's say that a new character was introduced in the October issue. Now that issue may be considered a Key issue and command not just 10 but perhaps 100 times the value of the September issue or the November issue even though each month 600,000 copies were printed. And that's what I don't get. Not only coins but many other collectables command higher values based upon scarcity, how many whatever were originally produced ........ not so comics. So if any of you want to comment, please do because I really don't get it.

Make one yourself. That's what I have done for my comics and my coins and my wife's book collection. I used Microsoft Excel to make a spreadsheet database. It's really pretty easy and you can make it as simple or as complicated as you like. As you can see, for each entry (comic) I only include the name, the issue, issue date, my estimated grade, Comics PriceGuide.com, Overstreet and Notsomania values, and the average of the 3 as of the date I bought or entered the comic into the database. What I originally paid for the comic and that also includes any shipping I paid so that my all in cost is accurate, and any notes about the book. Regrade just means that I looked at at it at least twice, to be somewhat sure I had the grade correct, or as close to correct as a schmuck like me could do. I also realize that the values in the real world will be less than the average values for the 3 grading sites I use, but it's only as a check against me paying way to much for any comic. I like to see that I paid 50% or less than the average values of the 3 services. Usually I do but sometimes I've paid a bit more than I should have. Here's an image of a small section of Superboy in my database. The blanks are a couple of books that I bought but haven't entered yet into the database.

I imagine it's sort of like asking, why would anyone worry about how much tread is left on your tires, when you aren't planning on going to the tire shop anyway. If you aren't going to get new tires, why care about the tread on the ones you have. And I didn't say anything about CGC standards anyway ......... just standards. I mean without something or someones standards, how could you grade anything?

I only collect raw comics that I will never have graded, but for my own collection and data base, I try to grade them as accurately as I am able. So my question is if the same imperfection were on front or back, are they looked at as the same or is more weight given to it if it's on the front vs the back. And if so, how much. For instance a small 1/8" chip out of the edge, same front and back? 4 or 5 color breaking spine creases, same front and back? Staple wear shows worse on the back than the front, does that matter or is it all the same? I would think that front cover wear would be more heavily scrutinized along with the accompanying grade reductions than the rear, but I don't know and that's why I am asking. Thanks ........

I tend to agree with the above assessments except for the time frame. I think this price/value progression will continue with books that were issued up until about sometime in 1976. Two things happened in 1975 and 1976, and then a third began to creep in over the next few years that really changed the dynamic. 1975 and 1976 were the last years for the 25 cent comic for DC and Marvel. And mid 1976 was the first year when bar codes were first adopted and placed on comic book covers. There is a certain nostalgia element about being able to buy a comic for a quarter or less. that is hard to quantify, but that was the way it was for nearly 40 years. From the early 40's to the mid 70's, for 10 to 25 cents you could buy yourself a comic book, and another 5 or 10 cents bought a candy bar and you had yourself an afternoon. I tend to think that the bar code also made comic books feel sort of modern and rather than a nostalgic relic from the past, and that didn't help either. But I think an even bigger change was the tone of the comics themselves. In the 40's, 50's, 60's, and till the mid 70's, super hero comics were sort of campy, corny, but little by little the violence and imagery became more graphic, more violent, sinister. And much like movies and television, super hero type comics followed suit. Compare the early Superman or Batman TV shows of the 50's and 60's or even the Superman movies of the 70's to today's Marvel blockbusters. Or the recent "Joker" movie compared to some of the earlier Superman, Batman nemesis like Lex Luther or the Penguin. That movie was so viciously violent, we didn't finish watching it at home but switched to something else. The innocence is gone. But anyway, I believe it is the cover price and the campy and corny innocence that left comics in the mid 70's that will be the defining line of where the progression of values will stop, so I have perhaps 5 more years worth of books I will be collecting, up to mid 76. Of the 500+ comics I now own, none have a barcode.

I don’t really expect any psychics or people with extraordinary clairvoyant abilities to answer, but just folks with opinions will do. I keep a pretty precise database of my collections, and as I was entering some current values based upon a few pricing sources, I happened to notice a fairly consistent year by year price progression for common non key issue books. I almost exclusively collect DC super Hero type books and have accumulated over 500 silver to early bronze age Lois lane, Jimmy Olsen, Superboy, Superman, Aquaman, World’s Finest, Brave and the Bold, Action and Adventure Comics, as well as some more in demand titles like Wonder Woman, Batman, The Flash, Green Lantern, Detective and others etc. I’m cheap and so I don’t have a single key issue amongst my collection, some better than others and everything is raw, nothing slabbed and graded. I also realize that real world sales values are not always reflected in price guide values, but one does follow the other, and so the expectation would be that when price guides rise, real sales prices will also rise. OK, that was a lot of build up and I will get to my question soon, but first an example and as evidence that you can comment on and about. I will be consistent and use common 6.0 non key Action Comics since I have a few, pricing will be averages rather than to the dollar and cents, and I will use only one guide, Comics Priceguide.com, but the progression will be similar for others like Overstreet or Nostomania or others for my evidence example ........... and question. 1972/1974 $2 to $3 1970/1971 $6 to $7 1968/1969 $12 to $13 1966/1967 $15 to $16 1965 $21 to $22 1964 $28 to $29 1963 $40 to $41 Well I could go further back, but I think this is enough to frame my question. Whether or not those are real world prices or real world is only half or less …….. none the less, the progression is dramatic. Looks to be about 1,500% over 10 years for common non key issue comics. I wish my stock portfolio did that. So then, do you believe that this progression will continue ……… in other words, in 10 years will 1972 issues be around 1,500% higher than they are today, or has something changed, or will change enough to stop this or significantly slow it down?

Curious as to what the community thinks of mending tissue. First of all let me start by saying I collect raw, and generally non key issue DC silver age (also some early pre bar code) bronze comics for my own enjoyment, and I never intend to have any professionally graded or for that matter probably ever sold. So none of this is about high dollar books or investment. But with that being said, some day I'm going to kick the bucket and someone will inherit my collection and I'm curious as to whether I'd be helping or hurting my collection. Out of the 500+ collection I have accumulated so far, I have about a dozen that have either a cover detached at one or both staples. So on these covers that have gotten a bit ragged around the staples, ragged enough to detach, I was thinking that if I carefully folded and ironed out the ragged parts and put a 1/2 inch wide strip of mending tape only along the inside of the cover, then removing the staples and re-attaching the covers would be a nearly invisible repair and would make an older comic with a ragged detached cover kind of whole again. And that leads to my question: how does the community look at repairs such as this, and if these were more valuable books that would someday be graded, how will third party TPG's look at this?

I found this very interesting. Looking at eBay listings for books to add to my low budget collection, I ran across a book I don't have ........ Superman #261. 20 cent cover price, Feb 1972, and comics price guide says it is just a run of the mill issue and worth $5.04 in 6.0 ungraded condition, ComicBookRealm has a 6.0 at $7.20, and Nostomania at $33.20, and yet almost all instances of this book being offered at eBay auctions are listed at $40. to $200. ............... and people are buying ungraded copies in various conditions at those prices. Sure, it's a racy cover but what of it? So can a key issue be created because people are willing to pay up for a racy picture? Here's an example of a a few that sold recently, one even calls it a "key" issue .................