Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 6 6

[N e r V]

On 9/26/2023 at 11:53 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Seems likely it was the death of Maneely that Stanley was crying about when Kirby turned up. Not only was Maneely a good friend of Stanley, but it would have seemed Atlas was going to tank without him... until Kirby came along 2 days later and saved the company.

It's possible Atlas would never have gotten into superheroes had Maneely lived and Kirby consequently never turned up with his superheroes pitch.

I'm sure Maneely would have continued to do himself proud if he'd lived to a ripe old age.

Yeah go read up on his death if you haven’t already. I seem to remember Doc V had contact with one of his daughters. Terrible timing put his wife and kids in a pretty bad way financially if I remember the story when he died. Death is never happy but his was particularly tragic. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by N e r V

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/27/2023 at 4:53 PM, N e r V said:

A lot of artists are way more popular and known today over time. It’s been an organic part of fandom. Lou Fine was popularized if I remember correctly starting in 1972 with Steranko’s History of Comics volume 2. Sadly he passed a year earlier missing any real fan exposure. I know I wanted a copy of Hit comics #5 after that. LB Cole was getting better known in the 1970’s and his “coming out” in the 1981 Overstreet cemented his legacy. Matt Baker was nearly unknown in the 1980’s, kinda known in the 1990’s by some and both he and LB Cole have exploded over the last decade or so. Way more popular. Bill Everett was always known since he survived into the very early 1970’s but he’s way more sought after these days than he was in the past. Alex Schomburg too was always known in collector circles but he is in the stratosphere today compared to the past. 
 

All this has been part of the maturing of the comics collectors market as we see demand increase for both artists and genres like romance books that at one time was either lesser or non existent. I see Joe Maneely as just another one whose profile has increased along with many others. Kirby on the other hand has stayed steady.

The first time I ever heard of Maneely was in the early '80s when a collector friend said his art was better than Kirby's and he (the collector friend) would be focusing on collecting Maneely's comics from that point onwards. At the time it was impossible to see much if any Maneely art without blindly buying expensive Golden Age - early Silver comics.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/27/2023 at 4:56 PM, N e r V said:

Yeah go read up on his death if you haven’t already. I seem to remember Doc V had contact with one of his daughters. Terrible timing put his wife and kids in a pretty bad way financially if I remember the story when he died. Death is never happy but his was particularly tragic. 

Yes, I've read articles about him and his horrific demise.

[N e r V]

On 9/26/2023 at 11:58 PM, Steven Valdez said:

The first time I ever heard of Maneely was in the early '80s when a collector friend said his art was better than Kirby's and he (the collector friend) would be focusing on collecting Maneely's comics from that point onwards. At the time it was impossible to see much if any Maneely art without blindly buying expensive Golden Age - early Silver comics.

I got into most of the Atlas artists in those Marvel monster/horror books and their b&w magazine line from the 1970’s which reprinted a lot of 1950’s Atlas. I’d talk to other older collectors for more information on them. The fanzine movement was big in the decade too so you could get a lot of exposure there with background information  and we had books on comics besides the Steranko volumes to fill in gaps. A lot of the artists would talk too at conventions. I met Jack Kirby the first time in mid 1970’s and I think while he was talking to a young Dave Stevens he went off talking about Lou Fines work. It was awesome. Before Arnold Drake died I had a pretty long conversation with him about past greats before Steranko pulled him away from me. Lol 

 

Never was interested in comparing artists. I mean Kirby is great in his way and Maneely in his. It’s all pretty subjective to the viewer, right?

Edited September 27, 2023 by N e r V

[shadroch]

I don't know much about Maneely as that era of Atlas never really interested me. Outside of prototype issues, I was more into Atlas War comics than the BEM issues, and generally bought for the covers. While I bought most of the Yellow Claw and Black Knight series, I don't remember ever reading them.

Maneely had recently bought a new house that was a long commute from Manhattan and may have been looking for other work closer to home when he died.

[Prince Namor]

Without Kirby, there never would have been a Marvel Superhero Silver Age. Plain and simple as that. 

Goodman was well aware of who Kirby was. After all he'd only co-created the biggest selling comic book that Timely or Atlas or Marvel had ever had. He'd been a part of a handful of some of the best selling Golden Age Comics. And what could've been selling on the newsstands in the summer of 1958 for DC Comics that showed Kirby was still a seller? Challengers of the Unknown #3. 

And what was the cover to Challengers of the Unknown #3? LOL. 

Goodman had NO ONE who could create stories and make sales like that. 

[N e r V]

On 9/27/2023 at 12:29 AM, Prince Namor said:

Without Kirby, there never would have been a Marvel Superhero Silver Age. Plain and simple as that. 

Goodman was well aware of who Kirby was. After all he'd only co-created the biggest selling comic book that Timely or Atlas or Marvel had ever had. He'd been a part of a handful of some of the best selling Golden Age Comics. And what could've been selling on the newsstands in the summer of 1958 for DC Comics that showed Kirby was still a seller? Challengers of the Unknown #3. 

And what was the cover to Challengers of the Unknown #3? LOL. 

Goodman had NO ONE who could create stories and make sales like that. 

Very true. I don’t think anyone could logically dispute that statement but I don’t think many have over the years either. It’s not like Kirby is unknown by fandom. All that there’s ever been discussed is the degrees of input. They’re all dead now (Kirby, Lee, Ditko) so I for one no longer care. Lee lived well during his life as did Kirby and his family did finally get a payday so I’m sure that would have made him happy. I do feel a bit bad for Ditko but that was his life choice. 
 

I was never a fan of todays “prototype” listings by Kirby and Ditko be it names, characters, powers or just drawing appearances but I have to admit it is fun to see various ideas the two of them had early on they’d later incorporate into the future Marvel line. I really like Kirby’s interest in the stone men type characters that showed up multiple times before Thor took a shot at them. I’ve always held a set of stone men books in both DC appearances and the pre hero Marvel books. Love them regardless if they’re the Easter Island sort or just plain alien Stone Men.

[Prince Namor]

On 9/27/2023 at 3:49 AM, N e r V said:

Very true. I don’t think anyone could logically dispute that statement but I don’t think many have over the years either.

Well... Stan Lee did... for the last 20 years of his life, his position (and one he spoke under oath in a court of law) became, "I created it all, and then assigned an artist."

[Prince Namor]

On 9/26/2023 at 10:05 PM, N e r V said:

I’m going to correct you on just one thing about Joe Maneely being some unknown except for Doc V pushing him as you site. First Doc V’s Atlas site is fantastic and I had many exchanges with him when he posted over at the Marvel Masterworks boards. He provided material as did I to help Cory Sedlmeier get those wonderful Marvel Masterworks Atlas era and Timely volumes published. I would agree with you he certainly did help promote Joe Maneely as he does with the Atlas line altogether and besides his site I’d also recommend some of his books. Very much an expert on Atlas comics. 

That said sir I began collecting comics in 1973. I had family members start collecting in the 1950’s and my great uncle back in mid 1940’s. They all knew who Joe Maneely was from the Atlas books as did any collector worth his weight in the 1970’s and on did. That would be like saying no one knew who Alex Schomburg was from his Timely work. His work was discussed at panels at SDCC that far back too. I think his Black Knight books even got a bit of a bump after showing up in the Marvel Indexes of the time. I mean come on man his fingerprints are ALL over the Atlas line and you’re trying to tell me Doc V is the only reason he’s known otherwise in your words he’s unknown or vaguely known? 
 

Come on over to the Atlas thread on the boards here for a taste of Maneely goodness…

Of course there were hardcore collectors who knew who Maneely was. 

But the largest, and most vocal collectors in this hobby, especially the fanboy print portion of it, are superhero collectors. Their focus is almost completely on superheroes. Maneely didn't do superheroes. So as I got into comics and read about comics in the late 70's, through the 80's, I never heard or read ANYONE mention Joe Maneely.

Alex Schomburg DID superheroes. He came back and did an Invaders Annual in 1977, the cover and 6 pages of a story. He also did Sci-Fi, which has its own rabid fanbase. He had his own book released of his work in 2005. Some of his covers are a part of the most collected Golden Age comics ever. So to the casual fan, Alex Schomburg, was at least someone who they could have become aware of without going and finding those comics.

Maneely didn't have a collection of his covers (though he certainly SHOULD have!). The fanboy print world didn't really speak of him much until... well, until Doc V started opening up people to his work. 

I certainly don't mean it as a slight to those who DID know of him and collect his work, or to Maneely's work in general which DOES deserve to be praised and shown... it's just this hobby has mostly tipped its interest completely to those silly superheroes. I think Maneely did two Sub-Mariner covers (?) and that's the closest he came...

Edited September 27, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

On 9/27/2023 at 3:49 AM, N e r V said:

I was never a fan of todays “prototype” listings by Kirby and Ditko be it names, characters, powers or just drawing appearances but I have to admit it is fun to see various ideas the two of them had early on they’d later incorporate into the future Marvel line.

Not sure if you saw this... Wally Wood's 1964 sketch for Daredevil's red suit redesign went for $5,520 on Heritage just recently. Now there's a piece of comic book history!

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/27/2023 at 5:49 PM, N e r V said:

Very true. I don’t think anyone could logically dispute that statement but I don’t think many have over the years either. It’s not like Kirby is unknown by fandom. All that there’s ever been discussed is the degrees of input. They’re all dead now (Kirby, Lee, Ditko) so I for one no longer care. Lee lived well during his life as did Kirby and his family did finally get a payday so I’m sure that would have made him happy. I do feel a bit bad for Ditko but that was his life choice. 
 

I was never a fan of todays “prototype” listings by Kirby and Ditko be it names, characters, powers or just drawing appearances but I have to admit it is fun to see various ideas the two of them had early on they’d later incorporate into the future Marvel line. I really like Kirby’s interest in the stone men type characters that showed up multiple times before Thor took a shot at them. I’ve always held a set of stone men books in both DC appearances and the pre hero Marvel books. Love them regardless if they’re the Easter Island sort or just plain alien Stone Men.

Ben Grimm was one of those stone man types as well.

[Steven Valdez]

Didn't Alex Schomburg burn all of his original art and comics in his backyard at one point, in a fit of rage? Something to do with being ripped-off on the rights for the Human Torch.

[Prince Namor]

On 9/27/2023 at 4:58 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Didn't Alex Schomburg burn all of his original art and comics in his backyard at one point, in a fit of rage? Something to do with being ripped-off on the rights for the Human Torch.

That was Carl Burgos.

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/27/2023 at 6:59 PM, Prince Namor said:

That was Carl Burgos.

Oh OK, of course... thanks!

[shadroch]

Information is easy to come by these days, but in the 70s, the past was very mysterious. The Golden Age seemed so long ago, even though it wasn't. 

I loved the reprints Dynapubs put out and bought all the Schomburg covers.   I had no idea he was born Alejandro Schomburg Rosa.  At one point in the late 1980s, I owned three original paintings he did but traded them away.  Now, I have two signed lithos and a limited print he did.  It's a shame he never took to doing interiors, and that he left the field so young.

[Prince Namor]

To me, Alex Schomburg's art is one of the great representative looks of the Golden Age. I wish there was a way to do a book of just full size reproductions of his covers from beginning to end. 

[Prince Namor]

People ask, "What would've it been like if Joe Maneely would have lived?"

Well... even when he was alive Marvel was faltering. The question is asked as a way for Stan (before his death) to approach the subject from the perspective that he and he alone created the Marvel Universe. Which of course, is nonsense. 

Most likely, if Maneely had lived, he would've been another John Severin. Kirby would've still showed up, because Marvel was crumbling. They were headed down the same path as so many other publishers (including Mainline) after the Comics Code. A LOT of publisher's folded after those Senate hearings.

No one really brings this up, but in my research, Lee seemed to really be fond of John Severin, and Severin talks highly of Stan as well (though he's not afraid to tell stories that sometimes paint Lee in a not so great light - he always adds, "But he's a good guy. I liked Stan.")

Consider:

Goodman/Lee always saw the covers as the most important thing. It sells the book - which to a publisher is the only thing that counts. You can have the greatest stories ever in your comic, if the cover sucks and it just sits on the newsstand, it doesn't do the publisher any good.

The last year before Atlas' implosion (Sept 1956 to Sept 1957), Severin did 118 pages of interior stories to Maneely's 471... Joe was quite the workhorse - about 40 pages a month - not KIRBY numbers - but well over Severin.

However, Severin did 100 covers for Atlas during this time, including SEVEN #1 issues, compared to Maneely's 60 covers, only TWO of which were #1. We hear so much about Maneely's use by Stan as 'guy', but we don't really hear about Severin, when the numbers show, Stan obviously saw HIM as the go to guy for covers and especially #1 issues.

This clearly comes about because of Lee's admiration of EC Comics (and of course Severin's talent) - Stanley would emulate some of their ideas into Marvel Comics - and he probably figured that pushing Severin's work would help sell books. And yet... glossed over in the discussion mostly.

(Well, maybe not on the Atlas threads or websites... I'd be curious as to how this was seen by the experts on Atlas - let me know if I'm missing something here...)

We seen what John Severin's career was at Marvel in the Silver Age - he wasn't a superhero specialist either, and... THAT is probably more along the same career path we would've seen from Maneely.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/26/2023 at 11:56 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Certainly would have been interesting having Maneely on the Avengers instead of Don Heck. Then again, had Maneely not passed away, Kirby may well never have gone to Atlas/Marvel. Perhaps he would have take his Spider-Man, FF, Hulk, X-Men, Thor, Iron Man etc concepts elsewhere.

Posterity will note that I said "different"--not necessarily "better"--for a lot of the reasons you mention.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/27/2023 at 2:28 AM, shadroch said:

I don't know much about Maneely as that era of Atlas never really interested me. Outside of prototype issues, I was more into Atlas War comics than the BEM issues, and generally bought for the covers. While I bought most of the Yellow Claw and Black Knight series, I don't remember ever reading them.

Maneely had recently bought a new house that was a long commute from Manhattan and may have been looking for other work closer to home when he died.

I believe he had a home somewhere in New Jersey--closer to Philadelphia than New York.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/27/2023 at 5:19 AM, Prince Namor said:

Goodman/Lee always saw the covers as the most important thing. It sells the book - which to a publisher is the only thing that counts. You can have the greatest stories ever in your comic, if the cover sucks and it just sits on the newsstand, it doesn't do the publisher any good.

Severin did 100 covers for Atlas during this time, including SEVEN #1 issues, compared to Maneely's 60 covers, only TWO of which were #1. We hear so much about Maneely's use by Stan as 'guy', but we don't really hear about Severin, when the numbers show, Stan obviously saw HIM as the go to guy for covers and especially #1 issues.

 

Marvel liked to designate an artist to specialize in doing covers. For a while in the 50s, I think it was Bill Everett (at least for the horror stuff). When I started reading Marvel Comics in the mid-70s, there were a lot of Gil Kane covers. And of course, years of Kirby covers in between.