Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[Prince Namor]

On 10/2/2023 at 10:57 AM, Steven Valdez said:

The DC guys were actual sci-fi fans, so their pseudo-science rang a little bit more true than Stanley's.

That and he spent 60 years claiming he was the Modern Day Shakespeare who wrote for a more adult audience.

[Zonker]

On 10/2/2023 at 2:57 PM, Prince Namor said:

That and he spent 60 years claiming he was the Modern Day Shakespeare who wrote for a more adult audience.

I gotta say, the only place I can recall seeing Stan proclaimed "the Modern Day Shakespeare" is in these threads.  

When I google the phrases, I do get this page, which toys with the idea of Stan as "a comic book Shakespeare." That's certainly also hyperbole, but not quite as silly as the idea of him being a Shakespeare for today across all genres or media.  And I still don't see where he claimed that title for himself?

[Dr. Haydn]

On 10/2/2023 at 2:55 PM, Zonker said:

I gotta say, the only place I can recall seeing Stan proclaimed "the Modern Day Shakespeare" is in these threads.  

When I google the phrases, I do get this page, which toys with the idea of Stan as "a comic book Shakespeare." That's certainly also hyperbole, but not quite as silly as the idea of him being a Shakespeare for today across all genres or media.  And I still don't see where he claimed that title for himself?

I think Lee mentioned in a late 70s era Stan's Soapbox (maybe early 80s?) that if Shakespeare wrote a comic book and Michelangelo drew it, then everyone would treat the resulting comic (and the genre as a whole) with the credit it deserved. That's the nearest I can think of, offhand, to any mention of the Bard by Stan. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
added "by Stan"

[Prince Namor]

On 10/2/2023 at 7:31 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

I think Lee mentioned in a late 70s era Stan's Soapbox (maybe early 80s?) that if Shakespeare wrote a comic book and Michelangelo drew it, then everyone would treat the resulting comic (and the genre as a whole) with the credit it deserved. That's the nearest I can think of, offhand, to any mention of the Bard by Stan. 

Earlier than that when Stan started speaking at college campus', the initial group of college dorks that invited him to Princeton in 1966,  called him the "this generation's Homer", which morphed into the 'Modern Day Shakespeare'. Maybe Stan felt like the average person wouldn't know who Homer was... In 1967 his publicity agent collected all of these college press articles and used them so much that it stuck, and the media has repeated it ever since.

Below is the article from 1966, where Stan says, "I pretend I'm Shakespeare", and then makes a bizarre comparison of himself to Sergei Eisenstein.

But no, he never specifically called himself the 'Modern Day Shakespeare', he just played it up, so that OTHERS would repeat it.

[Steven Valdez]

On 10/3/2023 at 11:55 AM, Prince Namor said:

Earlier than that when Stan started speaking at college campus', the initial group of college dorks that invited him to Princeton in 1966,  called him the "this generation's Homer", which morphed into the 'Modern Day Shakespeare'. Maybe Stan felt like the average person wouldn't know who Homer was... In 1967 his publicity agent collected all of these college press articles and used them so much that it stuck, and the media has repeated it ever since.

Below is the article from 1966, where Stan says, "I pretend I'm Shakespeare", and then makes a bizarre comparison of himself to Sergei Eisenstein.

But no, he never specifically called himself the 'Modern Day Shakespeare', he just played it up, so that OTHERS would repeat it.

Maybe by 'this generation's Homer' they meant Homer Simpson?

Oh wait, 1966 was way too early for that reference.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 10/2/2023 at 7:55 PM, Prince Namor said:

Earlier than that when Stan started speaking at college campus', the initial group of college dorks that invited him to Princeton in 1966,  called him the "this generation's Homer", which morphed into the 'Modern Day Shakespeare'. Maybe Stan felt like the average person wouldn't know who Homer was... In 1967 his publicity agent collected all of these college press articles and used them so much that it stuck, and the media has repeated it ever since.

Below is the article from 1966, where Stan says, "I pretend I'm Shakespeare", and then makes a bizarre comparison of himself to Sergei Eisenstein.

But no, he never specifically called himself the 'Modern Day Shakespeare', he just played it up, so that OTHERS would repeat it.

With references to "Ankor Watt" and "Segei" Eisenstein, the article sure reeks of trash journalism. They spelled Shakespeare correctly, to their credit.

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 10/2/2023 at 11:57 AM, Prince Namor said:

That and he spent 60 years claiming he was the Modern Day Shakespeare who wrote for a more adult audience.

I heard he also skewers innocent babies when in his cups.

[Prince Namor]

On 10/2/2023 at 9:45 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

With references to "Ankor Watt" and "Segei" Eisenstein, the article sure reeks of trash journalism. They spelled Shakespeare correctly, to their credit.

Yeah, Homer, Eisenstein and Shakespeare are ridiculous comparisons to Lee - more apt would be P.T. Barnum or Snake Oil Salesman. Creatively, Stanley was more adept at reigning in the artistic impulses of artists - I swear, every Marvel cover of the Silver Age I show to people and say, "Which do you think is better?", they always pick the one Lee DIDN'T use (well, except AF #15 - that was a good call!). He would dumb down many of Kirby's stories, and certainly had no answers in the work he did with Heck and Ayers. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 10/3/2023 at 10:31 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

I think Lee mentioned in a late 70s era Stan's Soapbox (maybe early 80s?) that if Shakespeare wrote a comic book and Michelangelo drew it, then everyone would treat the resulting comic (and the genre as a whole) with the credit it deserved.

The difference is that Shakespeare and Michelangelo would have done a good job. Shakespeare and Don Heck, not so much.

[Prince Namor]

On 10/3/2023 at 1:37 AM, Steven Valdez said:

The difference is that Shakespeare and Michelangelo would have done a good job. Shakespeare and Don Heck, not so much.

It's all subjective. Some people read something when they're eight and it resonates with them forever. Some look back on what they thought was great at 8 and realize it wasn't what they thought it was. The movies took the artist's storylines and the artist's action and brought it to the big screen. They didn't copy that DIALOGUE. 

Stan used his PT Barnum talents to elevate himself through manipulation and lies, turning his back on everyone who played a part in allowing him to do it - Goodman, Kirby, Ditko...  At first Stan just wanted ONE hit, that he could milk and coast for the rest of his life. Kirby and Ditko gave him much more than that. And then Stan found he could manipulate an army of blind zombies that he could INDIVIDUALLY milk for the rest of his life. 

...and then just like one of his silly 'brain teasers', in the end, he was surrounded by leeches that just wanted a signature - handlers who used and abused him - and a greedy family who could never get enough.

Even in death, here comes Houseroy trying get his DUE... and Larry Lieber trying to nuzzle just a little more milk out of those zombie teets... and Disney with that siren song of ridiculous lies set to repeat... over and over and over... all blanketed in the soft, fuzzy comfort of 'good 'ol nostalgia!'

Edited October 3, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Steven Valdez]

On 10/3/2023 at 7:29 PM, Prince Namor said:

It's all subjective. Some people read something when they're eight and it resonates with them forever. Some look back on what they thought was great at 8 and realize it wasn't what they thought it was. The movies took the artist's storylines and the artist's action and brought it to the big screen. They didn't copy that DIALOGUE. 

Stan used his PT Barnum talents to elevate himself through manipulation and lies, turning his back on everyone who played a part in allowing him to do it - Goodman, Kirby, Ditko...  At first Stan just wanted ONE hit, that he could milk and coast for the rest of his life. Kirby and Ditko gave him much more than that. And then Stan found he could manipulate an army of blind zombies that he could INDIVIDUALLY milk for the rest of his life. 

...and then just like one of his silly 'brain teasers', in the end, he was surrounded by leeches that just wanted a signature - handlers who used and abused him - and a greedy family who could never get enough.

Even in death, here comes Houseroy trying get his DUE... and Larry Lieber trying to nuzzle just a little more milk out of those zombie teets... and Disney with that siren song of ridiculous lies set to repeat... over and over and over... all blanketed in the soft, fuzzy comfort of 'good 'ol nostalgia!'

The way his life ended, with him surrounded by hangers-on and parasites, and allegations of sexual impropriety. Not a noble end, by any means.

[aardvark88]

ASM and FF barely outsell mighty 'Dennis the Menace' on newsstands 1967 during  the Batman tv show craze. Pic compliments of Bob Beerbohm's fb page:

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=633445328933863&set=a.100503572228044&__cft__[0]=AZXeh6uYgO4elCGT4T7_DbE129mjbTOBuzSnDXC8AnXynzAeiQqmMSIoHw8BxML9FVLkaseGSGQ7JMIWC0NBAnQ6fVyIdDJ4oMitQdP4MSHr4UuUd20EyZwYro0oUNTkECowaBkRgBe2gxqN-IzTfqBKys6F0EOPQTmWabVyH7fyrg&__tn__=EH-R

[Dr. Haydn]

I wouldn't take this to be a sign of the superiority of Dennis the Menace over Marvel's best titles (maybe if Hank Ketcham had still been involved, I'd have a different opinion), but it seems that now-defunct companies such as Fawcett, Gold Key, Dell, and the like, understood the comic-reading audience in the mid-1960s better than Marvel did.

[Prince Namor]

On 10/3/2023 at 2:19 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

I wouldn't take this to be a sign of the superiority of Dennis the Menace over Marvel's best titles (maybe if Hank Ketcham had still been involved, I'd have a different opinion), but it seems that now-defunct companies such as Fawcett, Gold Key, Dell, and the like, understood the comic-reading audience in the mid-1960s better than Marvel did.

Lee did his version of Dennis the Menace in Melvin the Monster in March 1956 - it lasted 6 issues before becoming Dexter the Demon with issue #7 and then... cancellation. Melvin also appeared in Cartoon Kids #1 (only issue). His Willie the Wise Guy, a more mean spirited Dennis the Menace, only lasted one issue as well. 

Stan Lee and Joe Maneely did all of the Melvin the Monster/Dexter the Demon (signed as 'by Stan & Joe) and Stan did the one Willie the Wise Guy with Fred Kida (signed as 'by Stan & Fred')

Lee's Donald Duck copy, Dippy Duck only lasted one issue as well (as did Marvin the Mouse). None of them did as well as Lee's Casper ripoff, Homer the Happy Ghost (22 issues), though its spinoff  Adventures of Homer Ghost only lasted two issues (all done by Lee with Dan DeCarlo).

When Stan said that he 'changed' the way he wrote in 1961, perhaps he meant Marvel CHANGED the way they did comics, as in Jack Kirby showed up (in 1958) and gave them some original stories, and he latched onto THAT and it changed his career. But.. that would be giving someone ELSE the credit.

 

Note: Dell would do a 'Melvin Monster' in 1965, that lasted 10 issues, about a comical monster who is a kid.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Journey Into Mystery #104 - Only the Inspired Talent of Stan Lee could have Written it  Only the gifted hand of Jack Kirby could have illustrated it - Inked by Chic Stone - Lettered by S. Rosen

Cover by Jack Kirby (Chic Stone inks)

It's around this time that Jack Kirby began to leave margin notes for Stan, some of which we can read. Kirby has big plans for Thor as he's well read on these legends and this becomes Thor's book. The 'Journey Into Mystery' logo becomes smaller and 'THOR' gets his own logo. 

Is Lee forgetting things or changing Jack's stories? Is he unaware to edit things that maybe Jack is forgetting? Ultimately the editor makes the final decisions and with the power to dialogue and even change art, I have to wonder.... how is Loki trusted to watch Asgard while Odin goes to Earth??? Have they learned nothing? Didn't Thor get his powers cut in half a few issues ago? How is he able to hold his own vs Skagg and Surtur? Odin has the power to transport everyone on earth to another dimension? 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Journey Into Mystery #104 - A Tale told in Splendor by Stan Lee    A Drama Drawn in Glory by Jack Kirby - Inked by Don Heck - Lettered by Art Simek

Tales of Asgard - The Origin of Heimdall

[Dr. Haydn]

Back when the earth truly had a frozen north. Stan's dialogue doesn't spell out the nature of the threat, though. (I wonder if there was anything in the margin notes about catastrophic flooding?)

[Dr. Haydn]

On 10/4/2023 at 2:59 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Journey Into Mystery #104 - A Tale told in Splendor by Stan Lee    A Drama Drawn in Glory by Jack Kirby - Inked by Don Heck - Lettered by Art Simek

Tales of Asgard - The Origin of Heimdall

Some decent inking from Don Heck, especially on the splash page.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Tales to Astonish #56 - Written by: Stan Lee  Drawn By: Dick Ayers (GCD says Sam Rosen was the Letterer)

Cover By: Jack Kirby (with inks by Sol Brodsky)

When it comes to standard comic book superhero stories, Lee and Ayers do an adequate job - again Lee mixing in his romance angle to help try and fill out Ayers struggling to fill 18 pages of story. (That's the other benefit of Kirby - the guy could deliver 5 COMPLETE 23 pages of story and art books each month...)

Lee and Ayers story would certainly hold up in an Archie Heroes Series, though probably not at DC... it's interesting that The Adventures of the Fly would go on an irregular publishing schedule for a couple of years, after showing a Statement of Publications number of 197,000 copies - to Archie Publications, that was a failure that needed to be half way put on the back burner.

Tales to Astonish would show 189,390 and be seen by Marvel as a moderate success to be continued (and tweaked). This was one of Lee's strengths in building the Marvel line - tweaking things to keep the presses rolling and slowly building the print runs. (I mean, he got PAID that extra money to keep these things in print - each book giving him 23 pages of dialogue pay for the artist's to write the stories, but hey, he DID keep it going).

The letters (which we never got to see) probably told the story... that Giant-Man and the Wasp weren't setting the world on fire, and in just a few more issues we'd see a change...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Tales to Astonish #56 - Story Plot - Stan Lee  -script & Art - Larry Lieber   Inking - Paul Reinman  Lettering - Art Simek

Just in case you were worried about Paul Reinman - Stan was giving him some inking work on a regular monthly basis (and a 5 page penciling story here and there), and he was also doing pencil and ink work for Archie Comics and ACG. 

Goodman most likely put the pressure on Stan to keep costs very low, even as they began to sell more, and having Don Heck pencil and ink his own work (at $20 a page combined!!!) and Larry Lieber doing -script & art (god knows what that poor guy was paid), it made each month a struggle to get it all done, but Lee held it together and got it out on time. 

... even if it did produce forgettable work like this. Thankfully, this would be the last of the 'Wasp tells a tale stories'.