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Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build
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Started by Prince Namor,

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Dr. Haydn

Dr. Haydn

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On 2/1/2024 at 8:16 AM, Zonker said:

Is this the first instance of the Hulk transformation triggered by Banner's emotional state?  Whose idea do we think that was?

HulkRage.png.68700b4ef21be82796da1ba7f69def09.png

I think it's often considered to be Ditko's idea--though this scene (pre-dating Ditko's run in Tales to Astonish) certainly suggests otherwise. Unless this rationale for the transformation first took place in the Lee-Ditko Hulk #6.

Edited by Dr. Haydn
Added Hulk #6
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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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On 2/2/2024 at 9:48 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

I think it's often considered to be Ditko's idea--though this scene (pre-dating Ditko's run in Tales to Astonish) certainly suggests otherwise. Unless this rationale for the transformation first took place in the Lee-Ditko Hulk #6.

It's hard to tell if Ditko had already finished his story - or explained it to Stan (the way it's dialogued here, it seems as though it was agreed upon how they would go forward with the explanation as to WHY he turns into the HUlk) or told Stan how he wanted to do it or how much 'synopsis' Stan gave Don Heck... who knows? Maybe Don Heck, just trying to fill space, came up with the idea.

I think we DO have to credit Stan with this issue in most likely coming up with the whole 'the madder (here 'angrier') the Hulk gets the stronger he gets'. Even though he AND Ditko may have agreed, or separately come up with that idea, Stan's verbalizing it was certainly a memorable part of the series. 

Screen Shot 2024-02-02 at 4.16.17 PM.png

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Dr. Haydn

Dr. Haydn

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On 2/2/2024 at 3:19 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

I think we DO have to credit Stan with this issue in most likely coming up with the whole 'the madder (here 'angrier') the Hulk gets the stronger he gets'. Even though he AND Ditko may have agreed, or separately come up with that idea, Stan's verbalizing it was certainly a memorable part of the series. 

Screen Shot 2024-02-02 at 4.16.17 PM.png

It's easy to underestimate the value of a memorable catchphrase. Stan had a boatload of those in the early 1960s. It may seem like a little thing today, but (for example) the Thing's battle cry. "It's clobberin' time" surely enhanced the entertainment value for the reader.

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aardvark88

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On 2/2/2024 at 1:19 AM, Prince Namor said:

It's hard to tell if Ditko had already finished his story - or explained it to Stan (the way it's dialogued here, it seems as though it was agreed upon how they would go forward with the explanation as to WHY he turns into the HUlk) or told Stan how he wanted to do it or how much 'synopsis' Stan gave Don Heck... who knows?

I think we DO have to credit Stan with this issue in most likely coming up with the whole 'the madder (here 'angrier') the Hulk gets the stronger he gets'.

Screen Shot 2024-02-02 at 4.16.17 PM.png

Seems like Stan Lee gave his artists a 1 or 2 sentence synopsis of the plot for next month's Marvel issue:

425847159_702112905400438_5457016630091882239_n.jpg.04155547b4374d747c34fdfac4e382e3.jpg

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Mmehdy

Mmehdy

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On 2/7/2024 at 9:27 AM, aardvark88 said:

Seems like Stan Lee gave his artists a 1 or 2 sentence synopsis of the plot for next month's Marvel issue:

425847159_702112905400438_5457016630091882239_n.jpg.04155547b4374d747c34fdfac4e382e3.jpg

the truth comes out...after looking at these great threads , The one key lesson I have learned is that no writer is equal...FF and SM consistently better, and Giant man...even Iron Man...weaker...which means many different writers. Here is a major clue..look at SGT Fury early issues with Kirby art and story...these were great stuff...in a way very cinematic ... a flavor...then as you on....not as great, except for issue 13...opps that is Kirby too......interesting how kirby did final death page I think it was in an issue 17...he did one interior page...and of course the cover...so with the cover he might of had some type of plot imput....it would be interesting to break that down... But if Jack was doing the plots then that could be why he was able to draw a page or two on that issue.

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BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES

BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES

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On 2/7/2024 at 10:26 AM, Mmehdy said:

the truth comes out...after looking at these great threads , The one key lesson I have learned is that no writer is equal...FF and SM consistently better, and Giant man...even Iron Man...weaker...which means many different writers. Here is a major clue..look at SGT Fury early issues with Kirby art and story...these were great stuff...in a way very cinematic ... a flavor...then as you on....not as great, except for issue 13...opps that is Kirby too......interesting how kirby did final death page I think it was in an issue 17...he did one interior page...and of course the cover...so with the cover he might of had some type of plot imput....it would be interesting to break that down... But if Jack was doing the plots then that could be why he was able to draw a page or two on that issue.

"The truth comes out" sounds like this was some newly found audio recording of Stan twirling his moustache as he confided this to some co-conspirator.  This is an interview he gave freely in 1990.  He knew he was being interviewed. Just as he knew he was being interviewed when he said things much like this in years before, dating back to the mid-60s, when he bragged on his artists and even downplayed his input at times, just as he sometimes overstated it.  A creative team/bullpen/writers room/whathaveyou is almost never binary -- with one doing either everything or nothing. But it seems like people who have never toiled in such environments have immense difficulty grasping that.  Don't they at least recall how it was doing creative projects in school or doing live action role play (just as old schoolers played "cops and robbers"), coming up with stories in b.s. sessions?  Ideas bounce around and feed off each other and if you're lucky the result of several minds gives you more than the sum of its parts.  

As the editor, Stan was basically the Walt Disney of Marvel, or like a TV "showrunner" today who happens to have dozens of shows on the air.  Sometimes a showrunner will haven written virtually every line of an episode despite some other person's name being on the title page, and sometimes the showrunner will just be there for the first few minutes of pitching and not feel a need to rewrite what the episodic writer hands in.  Stan's run as the editor of Marvel couldn't possibly have been as good as it was if he had not been a gifted writer, and the fact that he grew lazy at times doesn't change that.  Nor does it change that because he veered between taking too little and too much credit.  There is no great hidden truth about how Marvel's 1960s run came about.  Stan was an extremely talented guy who oversaw a bunch of extremely talented people, and as time went along and the stuff they made became more successful, everybody's memories got more and more skewed and they all remember their part in the collaboration as being bigger than it was.  

Edited by BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES
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Mmehdy

Mmehdy

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On 2/8/2024 at 9:34 PM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

"The truth comes out" sounds like this was some newly found audio recording of Stan twirling his moustache as he confided this to some co-conspirator.  This is an interview he gave freely in 1990.  He knew he was being interviewed. Just as he knew he was being interviewed when he said things much like this in years before, dating back to the mid-60s, when he bragged on his artists and even downplayed his input at times, just as he sometimes overstated it.  A creative team/bullpen/writers room/whathaveyou is almost never binary -- with one doing either everything or nothing. But it seems like people who have never toiled in such environments have immense difficulty grasping that.  Don't they at least recall how it was doing creative projects in school or doing live action role play (just as old schoolers played "cops and robbers"), coming up with stories in b.s. sessions?  Ideas bounce around and feed off each other and if you're lucky the result of several minds gives you more than the sum of its parts.  

As the editor, Stan was basically the Walt Disney of Marvel, or like a TV "showrunner" today who happens to have dozens of shows on the air.  Sometimes a showrunner will haven written virtually every line of an episode despite some other person's name being on the title page, and sometimes the showrunner will just be there for the first few minutes of pitching and not feel a need to rewrite what the episodic writer hands in.  Stan's run as the editor of Marvel couldn't possibly have been as good as it was if he had not been a gifted writer, and the fact that he grew lazy at times doesn't change that.  Nor does it change that because he veered between taking too little and too much credit.  There is no great hidden truth about how Marvel's 1960s run came about.  Stan was an extremely talented guy who oversaw a bunch of extremely talented people, and as time went along and the stuff they made became more successful, everybody's memories got more and more skewed and they all remember their part in the collaboration as being bigger than it was.  

Stan is no "Walt Disney"...cant come close....showrunner does not cut it either...its make up as much credit possible on the marvel with little or no imput. As a organizer I will give him that, if but no Jack or Steve doing kick as super hero comics in the early 60's no marvel universe. FF and Spiderman carried the day for Marvel despite Disney Duck out selling them 3-1.

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BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES

BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES

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On 2/10/2024 at 8:53 PM, Mmehdy said:

Stan is no "Walt Disney"...cant come close....showrunner does not cut it either...its make up as much credit possible on the marvel with little or no imput. As a organizer I will give him that, if but no Jack or Steve doing kick as super hero comics in the early 60's no marvel universe. FF and Spiderman carried the day for Marvel despite Disney Duck out selling them 3-1.

I do not have direct knowledge of Disney's work methods but I've spoken with people who did and I do have direct knowledge of showrunning and Stan's work methods and skills.  No analogies are perfect but the Disney and showrunning comparisons do fit on many, if not all, levels. The efforts to overcompensate re Kirby don't change that.

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Mmehdy

Mmehdy

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On 2/13/2024 at 10:27 AM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

I do not have direct knowledge of Disney's work methods but I've spoken with people who did and I do have direct knowledge of showrunning and Stan's work methods and skills.  No analogies are perfect but the Disney and showrunning comparisons do fit on many, if not all, levels. The efforts to overcompensate re Kirby don't change that.

Stan was a promoter....plain and simple...as far as imput ...story etc please read Sgt Fury 1-7 and tell me Stan had really anything to do with that....that is Jack all the way

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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On 2/14/2024 at 2:07 AM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

Is there anybody for whom that is not true?

Yes. Creative people who actually do the work. 

Stan saying, "Next month, the Rhino!" isn't creating anything. Adding dialogue after the stories have been created, based on wise guy dialogue left over from Millie the Model isn't 'creating' anything.

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