Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[Steven Valdez]

Got the new issue of the Jack Kirby Collector last night. I was surprised to learn therein that Jack spoke German. Did not know that.

 

[s-man]

On 3/1/2024 at 5:47 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Got the new issue of the Jack Kirby Collector last night. I was surprised to learn therein that Jack spoke German. Did not know that.

 

Jawohl!

[Dr. Haydn]

On 3/1/2024 at 4:39 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Same for Roy Thomas as well. He wrote so much better when Neal Adams or Barry Smith was illustrating, than say, Werner Roth or Don Heck.

It's almost as if the artists were contributing most of the ideas!

[Dr. Haydn]

On 3/1/2024 at 4:47 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Got the new issue of the Jack Kirby Collector last night. I was surprised to learn therein that Jack spoke German. Did not know that.

 

His parents were Austrian-Jewish immigrants. I wonder if they spoke German at home when Jack was young?

[Steven Valdez]

On 3/2/2024 at 6:44 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

His parents were Austrian-Jewish immigrants. I wonder if they spoke German at home when Jack was young?

He also said his dad was an aristocrat back in Austria, but they seemed to have an austere life in the lower east side of NYC. Would love to know the backstory there.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 3/1/2024 at 6:52 PM, Steven Valdez said:

He also said his dad was an aristocrat back in Austria, but they seemed to have an austere life in the lower east side of NYC. Would love to know the backstory there.

If his parents left Austria (the Austro-Hungarian Empire back then) shortly before Jack's birth in 1917, as a result of the unrest created by World War I, most of what they owned would have been left behind. This would explain how they ended up in the Lower East Side of Manhattan, a notoriously rough neighborhood back then. Still, I'd be curious to know where the aristocrat story came from. If doesn't appear in the biography on the Jack Kirby Museum & Research Center site.

[Steven Valdez]

On 3/3/2024 at 8:00 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

If his parents left Austria (the Austro-Hungarian Empire back then) shortly before Jack's birth in 1917, as a result of the unrest created by World War I, most of what they owned would have been left behind. This would explain how they ended up in the Lower East Side of Manhattan, a notoriously rough neighborhood back then. Still, I'd be curious to know where the aristocrat story came from. If doesn't appear in the biography on the Jack Kirby Museum & Research Center site.

Thanks, makes perfect sense. My own father's family fled Germany after it was largely destroyed in WWII; they'd been wealthy but lost everything... another 'wrong side of history' story.

Edited March 3 by Steven Valdez

[Dr. Haydn]

Is this the first we've seen of Jack Keller's work on this site? 

This splash reminds me a bit of the late, lamented Joe Maneely--though the figures are stiffer. Maybe a hint of Jack Davis in there as well, though less stylized and cartoony.

[Steven Valdez]

On 3/9/2024 at 2:50 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Is this the first we've seen of Jack Keller's work on this site? 

This splash reminds me a bit of the late, lamented Joe Maneely--though the figures are stiffer. Maybe a hint of Jack Davis in there as well, though less stylized and cartoony.

Not a fan of it... the guy on the left looks like he's floating. The other guy kind of does too.

Edited March 9 by Steven Valdez

[Dr. Haydn]

On 3/8/2024 at 9:52 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Not a fan of it... the guy on the left looks like he's floating. The other guy kind of does too.

I can see why Stan didn't use Keller on the superhero line.

Edited March 9 by Dr. Haydn
added Keller

[Dr. Haydn]

On 3/8/2024 at 9:52 PM, Steven Valdez said:

The guy on the left looks like he's floating. The other guy kind of does too.

Now that you mention it...

it sure does! I don't know how that can be fixed. Perhaps some speed lines to suggest motion? That way, the characters would appear to be walking or running instead of levitating.

 

[Steven Valdez]

On 3/9/2024 at 3:46 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Now that you mention it...

it sure does! I don't know how that can be fixed. Perhaps some speed lines to suggest motion? That way, the characters would appear to be walking or running instead of levitating.

 

The guy on the left just needs to have the front of his right foot on the ground and it would make sense.  Kid Colt should just be standing with both feet on the ground, turning to respond to his assailant. Would be better if he was closer up, so you could just seem him from the chest up. Just trying to think how Mr Kirby would have staged it. If only there'd been an art director!

Talk about Monday morning quarterbacking!

Edited March 9 by Steven Valdez

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1964

Avengers #8 - Lee, Kirby, Ayers, Rosen - Lee comparing himself to Victor Hugo, despite the fact that he never did or would write a literary book. He couldn't produce a comic book script, much less write a book. And yet, people still think of him as a writer. 

"The glory which is built upon a lie soon becomes a most unpleasant incumbrance. ...  How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and how hard it is to undo that work again!" - Autobiographical dictation, 2 December 1906. Published in Autobiography of Mark Twain, Volume 2 (University of California Press, 2013)

Meanwhile, thankfully we still have Kirby on the Avengers, and he produces one of their greatest villains...

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1964

Avengers #8 - Ayers embellishment on this is... quite good...

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1964

Avengers #8 - Letters Page

[Dr. Haydn]

Judging from the caption, bottom right, Jack had not yet told Stan what the next issue's plot was going to be.

[Mmehdy]

Great issue!...12 cents...just wow

[Dr. Haydn]

On 3/15/2024 at 2:17 AM, Mmehdy said:

Great issue!...12 cents...just wow

Sure was a bargain, back in the day...

[Prince Namor]

Stan Lee would do his first college speaking appearance in 1964, but wouldn't really step it up until 1966 after the cartoons came out and he put on a toupee and got a tan to hide his liver spots. He was in showbiz now!

For the life of me, I can't see any proof that he increased the amount of college readers with his campus appearances. Wasn't he speaking to the already converted? As his appearances increased in 1970-72, sales of the comics actually went DOWN. I suspect the old Marvel stop motion Cartoons from 1966 did more to increase the overall awareness of the line of comics than anything Stan did on Campus. And that was because of how exciting the ART was - using Kirby's actual artwork.

In the spread sheet below, you can see how a couple lies from Lee are exposed... a) that comics were dead in 1960... far from it as Dell, Archie and especially DC were still selling big numbers (NOT WW2 numbers, but still bigger than we'd see for another 30 years).... b) that Marvel rose on it's own in the mid-60's... again untrue, as the whole comic publishing business rose during those middle years, and then EXPLODED after the Batman TV show brought even more awareness to the books.... and c) that Marvel became more successful in the 70's.... what???

It's pretty easy to see how numbers went DOWN once Kirby left Marvel. Lee was still writing FF and ASM, but those books PLUMMETED. By the time Lee jumped ship midway through 1972, the FF was down 100,000 copies a month and the ASM 80,000+ copies a month (it seriously missed Romita's much under valued writing and art on the book). The price increases didn't help, but those are some serious drops in sales.

Cancellations of Nick Fury, Silver Surfer (Kirby ideas, no longer held together by Kirby), Sub-Mariner (would hold out until 1974)... by the end of the decade, the Marvel line of comics was a mess...

So what DID make Marvel the #1 publisher in 1972, despite all of those falling sales numbers...? (continued...)

[Prince Namor]

You also had the 1967 Spider-man Cartoon (considered one of the best they ever made) which ran from September 1967 until June 1970 and the 1967-68 Fantastic Four Cartoon.

These were the two books that were Marvel's most successful comics and obviously benefitted from the Saturday Morning Cartoon exposure, but for very obvious reasons (to promote LEE as his own brand) they are downplayed as being a part of that success. 

Again... when they stopped doing the Cartoons, it coincided with the comic book numbers going DOWN. Smilin' Stan is still writing and swinging with the youngsters on the campus 'scene', but... sales are DOWN.