Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[Prince Namor]

On 2/22/2024 at 8:59 AM, Unca Ben said:

Not true.  I can show you letters pages and Bullpen Bulletins in Stan's own words that show otherwise.

Yes, words he later claimed he didn't mean, and that he said, 'simply to appease the ego of the artists'.

He spent 30 years, after that claiming he wrote it all, while giving back handed credit to the 'art' they did.

And for the last 20+ years of his life, Lee said HE created everything and then assigned an artist to draw it.

FACT.

He STOLE credit and PAY from those people.

[The humble Watcher lurking]

On 2/21/2024 at 2:05 PM, Unca Ben said:

Ub Iwerks ?

Good video here about Ub Iwerks. Uncle Walt kind of stole credit from him. 

 

[Prince Namor]

On 2/22/2024 at 7:14 AM, Unca Ben said:

No.  While I do have an opinion since I read and collect Ditko's Charlton and Kirby's fourth world, I base my statements on readership, fan acclaim, cultural significance, longevity of the characters, influence on future comic book creators, etc.

For one example:  one thing Ditko's Blue Beetle and Captain Atom books didn't do was usher in "the Charlton Age of Comics".

They didn't usher in a promotional blurb? Why is that important?

The Charlton 'age' of comics, without anyone making that blurb, continued publishing for another 15-20 years, without anyone around to keep regurgitating the same old stories and characters. It had it's day without making a spectacle of it.

Blue Beetle eventually had movie made about it, and New Gods still sells out its trade paperback releases and is even more popular now than ever before. New Gods as an INFLUENCE... well, I think Thanos is pretty well done 'homage' that did ok. 

Heck, Kirby's Jimmy Olsen, outsold Lee's Fantastic Four after Kirby left Marvel.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 2/22/2024 at 9:39 AM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

Good video here about Ub Iwerks. Uncle Walt kind of stole credit from him. 

 

From Wikipedia's fairly long entry on Iwerks:

"Iwerks was responsible for the distinctive style of the earliest Disney animated cartoons and was also responsible for designing Mickey Mouse."

There's also an award for technical achievement named after him, and he was named a Disney Legend in 1989.

We can only hope that Jack Kirby will eventually get his due in the historical record in similar fashion.

[Unca Ben]

On 2/22/2024 at 7:31 AM, Prince Namor said:

Nice try.

Jack brought Spider-man to Lee. It's fact.

Simon and Kirby had a character, called Spider-man (with hyphen). The logo was done, letters to editors and their response and possible changes exist. It's exactly what happened. No faulty memory by Jack at all.

Groth didn't really push Kirby on the specifics, but in an interview done the same year, Kirby expounds upon it:

 

PITTS: So, you’re saying you had the original idea and presented it to Ditko?

KIRBY: I didn’t present it to Ditko. I presented everything to Stan Lee. I drew up the costume, I gave him the character and I put it in the hands of Marvel. By giving it to Stan Lee, I put it in the hands of Marvel, because Stan Lee had contact with the publisher. I didn’t. Stan Lee gave it to Steve Ditko because I was doing everything else, until Johnny Romita came in to take up some of the slack. There were very few people up at Marvel; Artie Simek did all the lettering and production.

KIRBY: My initial concept was practically the same. But the credit for developing Spider-Man goes to Steve Ditko; he wrote it and he drew it and he refined it. Steve Ditko is a thorough professional. And he has an intellect. Personality wise, he’s a bit withdrawn, but there are lots of people like that. But Steve Ditko, despite the fact that he doesn’t disco– although he may now; I haven’t seen him for a long time– Steve developed Spider-Man and made a salable item out of it.

There are many others who take credit for it, but Steve Ditko, it was entirely in his hands. I can tell you that Stan Lee had other duties besides writing Spider-Man or developing Spider-Man or even thinking about it.

FROM Conversations with Comic Book Creators by Leonard Pitts Jr. 1986/87

and here's another quote from Kirby: 
"The only book I didn't work on was Spider-Man, which Steve Ditko did. But Spider-Man was my creation."  and  "I created Spider-Man. I drew the first Spider-Man cover. I created the character. I created the costume. I created all those books, but I couldn’t do them all. We decided to give the book to Steve Ditko who was the right man for the job. He did a wonderful job on that.  He was a wonderful artist, a wonderful conceptualist. It was Steve Ditko that made Spider-Man the well-known character that he is."

.............................................................................

And I would counter with Ditko's essay. I'm sure that you are aware of it.

"KIRBY: My initial concept was practically the same. "  

Kirby's costume?  Kirby's character?  This is Steve's recollection of it.  From this essay: "Almost all of the bits of this "creation" (the scientist, magic ring, etc.) were never used.  So what is left of the original creation?  A name, a teenager, an aunt and uncle."

Part of Ditko’s essay “An Insider’s Part of Comics History: Jack Kirby’s Spider-Man article shown again and discussed in Alter Ego, 2001, Steve Ditko contests Jack Kirby’s claim of creating the costume, saying that he received a sketch of Jack Kirby’s costume which was more like Captain America, and also saying that Steve himself created the costume, look and movement, webshooters, etc.  Steve Ditko also discusses the 5 page synopsis that he received from Stan which was a product of a conversation between Stan and Jack, which went mostly unused including a penciled splash picture of the Jack Kirby drawn Spider-Man.  He also wrote “Stan said Spider-Man would be a teenager with a magic ring which could transform him into an adult hero-Spiderman.  I said it sounded like the Fly, which Joe Simon had done for Archie publications…. Kirby had penciled five pages of his Spider-Man.  How much was pure Kirby, how much Lee, is for them to resolve.”  This early version reminded Steve Ditko of the Archie comic by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby called the Fly, and he has written that he pointed out the similarity to Stan Lee, so Stan (wisely) chose to give Ditko the project, likely to make it different from the Fly and add his own Ditko flair to the character.  https://comicbookhistorians.com/marvel-1960s-jack-kirby-stan-lee-steve-ditko-who-created-what/
 

And as far as contributing the name "Spider-Man" as evidence of co-creation from Kirby, does that mean Kirby and Lee's "Thor" has another co-creator?   (much less the "Human Torch"?)

 

“Does anyone wonder or care what S-M would look like, be like today, if I had never mentioned the Fly and just inked Jack/Stan’s S-M idea?” — Steve Ditko, ‘The Silent Self Deceivers’ 2012 (as reprinted in ‘The Complete Four-Page Series and other Essays’, 2020)

“The Lee/Kirby S-M idea, five art pages, was not a story, no kind of blueprint but a flawed, failed S-M idea. The potential (acorn, seed) could not be brought to life.”  — Steve Ditko “Roislecxse” The Avenging Mind 2007 (reprinted ‘The 32 Series by Ditko’ Vol 1, Overture, 2019)

Edited February 23 by Unca Ben

[Prince Namor]

On 2/24/2024 at 4:39 AM, Unca Ben said:

and here's another quote from Kirby: 
"The only book I didn't work on was Spider-Man, which Steve Ditko did. But Spider-Man was my creation."  and  "I created Spider-Man. I drew the first Spider-Man cover. I created the character. I created the costume. I created all those books, but I couldn’t do them all. We decided to give the book to Steve Ditko who was the right man for the job. He did a wonderful job on that.  He was a wonderful artist, a wonderful conceptualist. It was Steve Ditko that made Spider-Man the well-known character that he is."

.............................................................................

And I would counter with Ditko's essay. I'm sure that you are aware of it.

"KIRBY: My initial concept was practically the same. "  

Kirby's costume?  Kirby's character?  This is Steve's recollection of it.  From this essay: "Almost all of the bits of this "creation" (the scientist, magic ring, etc.) were never used.  So what is left of the original creation?  A name, a teenager, an aunt and uncle."

Part of Ditko’s essay “An Insider’s Part of Comics History: Jack Kirby’s Spider-Man article shown again and discussed in Alter Ego, 2001, Steve Ditko contests Jack Kirby’s claim of creating the costume, saying that he received a sketch of Jack Kirby’s costume which was more like Captain America, and also saying that Steve himself created the costume, look and movement, webshooters, etc.  Steve Ditko also discusses the 5 page synopsis that he received from Stan which was a product of a conversation between Stan and Jack, which went mostly unused including a penciled splash picture of the Jack Kirby drawn Spider-Man.  He also wrote “Stan said Spider-Man would be a teenager with a magic ring which could transform him into an adult hero-Spiderman.  I said it sounded like the Fly, which Joe Simon had done for Archie publications…. Kirby had penciled five pages of his Spider-Man.  How much was pure Kirby, how much Lee, is for them to resolve.”  This early version reminded Steve Ditko of the Archie comic by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby called the Fly, and he has written that he pointed out the similarity to Stan Lee, so Stan (wisely) chose to give Ditko the project, likely to make it different from the Fly and add his own Ditko flair to the character.  https://comicbookhistorians.com/marvel-1960s-jack-kirby-stan-lee-steve-ditko-who-created-what/
 

And as far as contributing the name "Spider-Man" as evidence of co-creation from Kirby, does that mean Kirby and Lee's "Thor" has another co-creator?   (much less the "Human Torch"?)

 

“Does anyone wonder or care what S-M would look like, be like today, if I had never mentioned the Fly and just inked Jack/Stan’s S-M idea?” — Steve Ditko, ‘The Silent Self Deceivers’ 2012 (as reprinted in ‘The Complete Four-Page Series and other Essays’, 2020)

“The Lee/Kirby S-M idea, five art pages, was not a story, no kind of blueprint but a flawed, failed S-M idea. The potential (acorn, seed) could not be brought to life.”  — Steve Ditko “Roislecxse” The Avenging Mind 2007 (reprinted ‘The 32 Series by Ditko’ Vol 1, Overture, 2019)

The point is, the original idea to do a 'Spider-man' character at Marvel was Jack bringing it to Stan. Without that, it doesn't happen. Kirby's not trying to claim ownership of the character, he's trying to show that Stan had nothing to do with the ideas that were created at the time.

Stan didn't see a spider on the wall and say, "That's a superhero idea!" and go to Ditko and make a comic book. Jack brought the idea in, as he did all of his other ideas. Did he overstate his involvement? Maybe. But it's hard to overstate how much Jack DID for Marvel during this period, by anyone other than Stan Lee and his Marvel Zombies.

And he certainly wasn't trying to show Ditko up. He even says in BOTH interviews - the one you fixate on: "He was a... wonderful conceptualist. It was Steve Ditko that made Spider-Man the well-known character that he is." as well as in the other, "The credit for developing Spider-Man goes to Steve Ditko; he wrote it and he drew it and he refined it." 

In the other interview he even makes a point to specify, for himself and especially for STAN, because this is his WHOLE POINT, "There are many others who take credit for it, but Steve Ditko, it was entirely in his hands."

You can try hard to take Stan's horrible treatment of his artists in stealing CREDIT and PAY from them and somehow show Kirby's claim, which cost NO ONE any credit or pay, as somehow equal, but it's... laughable.

Ditko deserves credit for making Spider-man what it was. Stan spent years denying this. Kirby makes it the point of all of this. Marvel Zombies gloss right over it and try and paint Kirby as the villain. 

It's an endless cycle.

[Unca Ben]

On 2/23/2024 at 4:00 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

In the other interview he even makes a point to specify, for himself and especially for STAN, because this is his WHOLE POINT, "There are many others who take credit for it, but Steve Ditko, it was entirely in his hands."

 

and Ditko says he worked from a one or two page synopsis.  Which mean Stan had input, contrary to Kirby's claims when he was angry with Stan.  Not to mention your claims.  Who came up with the radioactive spider?   Not Jack.  And Steve mentions the costume and web shooters and sticking to walls.  He didn't mention the radioactive spider origin being his.  He also mentions Stan's input on the Spidey sense in one of his essays or interviews.  And he mentions regularly working from 1 or 2 page synopsis from Stan, until he and Stan started disagreeing on a lot of stuff. 

So your indictment that Stan had zero input and Jack and Steve did all the creating is not true.  Especially at the beginning, when these characters were CREATED.

Here are some quotes from Kirby when he wasn't grinding an axe against Stan:

"WE shared laughs, ideas, and stubby cigars"

 

"I've always enjoyed working with Stan - we've been a successful team.  In the collaboration something good comes out; it's the chemistry of a good team."

 

So instead of cherry-picking Kirby's quote when he felt hurt or angry, the big picture sounds like more than the one-dimensional take of "Stan taking credit for other peoples ideas".  

 

 

 

 

Edited February 24 by Unca Ben

[Dr. Haydn]

On 2/23/2024 at 7:04 PM, Unca Ben said:

Ditko says he worked from a one or two page synopsis.  Which mean Stan had input, contrary to Kirby's claims when he was angry with Stan.  Not to mention your claims.  Who came up with the radioactive spider?   Not Jack.  And Steve mentions the costume and web shooters and sticking to walls.  He didn't mention the radioactive spider origin being his.  He also mentions Stan's input on the Spidey sense in one of his essays or interviews.  And he mentions regularly working from 1 or 2 page synopsis from Stan, until he and Stan started disagreeing on a lot of stuff. 

So your indictment that Stan had zero input and Jack and Steve did all the creating is not true.  Especially at the beginning, when these characters were CREATED.

Stan, as editor, had the responsibility (obligation) to revise and modify the work brought to him, as he saw fit. That is an important contribution to the final product, but in my opinion, it takes place after most of the creative work has taken place.

[Prince Namor]

On 2/25/2024 at 5:43 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Stan, as editor, had the responsibility (obligation) to revise and modify the work brought to him, as he saw fit. That is an important contribution to the final product, but in my opinion, it takes place after most of the creative work has taken place.

Of course. 

Stan was an editor, not a writer. 

But some people will refuse to see it. The quotes aren't cherry picked. Every artist Stan regularly worked with downplayed his part in the creation process. 

Ditko DID get a synopsis from Stan early on. AFTER their discussion about story ideas. 

We can SEE the difference in a Kirby or Ditko story vs a Heck or an Ayers story. If Stan was actually writing or spearheading all of these stories, we could see certain similarities. 

But we don't. Because he didn't. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Patsy Walker #116, Millie the Model #122, and Kid Colt Outlaw #118

And of course Stan's 'my wife told me to do what I wanted, so I changed to writing stories MY way' is clearly debunked in his work outside these Kirby/Ditko books in both his 'dumb blonde' titles and his 'Western genre' work which remained exactly the same as they always had been. Including signing his name to Paper Doll pages to get paid for it.

And then of course...

AL HARTLEY (Alter Ego #61) - There was one point in the early 1960s when I was Stan’s assistant for about two months. I didn’t feel comfortable in that position, so I went back to freelancing. As Stan’s assistant, frankly, I did everything I normally did, and did some of the things that Stan did. I edited and wrote stories.

AL HARTLEY (Alter Ego #61) - Stan Lee didn’t come up with most of the ideas. He really gave me free rein. Actually, I’d just go ahead and write and draw the stories and then send them in.

But because Stan would write blurbs like: "One of the most Gripping, Most unusual of all Kid Colt's adventures' on basic genre stories, people see that as 'genius'. When I began reading comics in the 70's, Marvel did that crud, and it's what made me sour on them.

That IS a great AD though, showing the growth of Marvel's stable of books...

Edited February 27 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Kid Colt Outlaw #118

And then there's the creative genius, Larry Lieber, who 'wrote all of Kirby's monster stories' (lol) (from Stan's 'story/plots', natch!), and created Iron Man (lol) and created Thor (lol), from Stan's 'story/plots', natch!, and a year later is...

Relegated to one 5 page back up story in Kid Colt?

The clues and proof are so overwhelming, you'd have to be a brain washed, boot licker to not see the truth.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #17 - Dialogued by Lee, Written, Drawn and Inked by Steve Ditko, Lettered by Sam Rosen

This is the story I read that really made me fall in love with Ditko's story/art. I read this in a coverless, beat up copy of Marvel Tales #12 (I thought the other stories sucked) in 1974-1975. It's still a fun, great story. Ditko was really picking up steam with his ideas for this character.

Part ONE

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #17 - In so many ways, the perfect Spider-man story...

Part TWO

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #17 - Letters page

Stan's starts out by asking the fans what THEY want - ugh. Most likely, Ditko gave in to the demands to get rid of that broomstick though, and the result IS much better. Sturdy Steve to the rescue. 

A letter from future Marvel writer Doug Moench (from an era of many Marvel writers who I despise, because of their disrespect for Kirby - and mediocre stories they try and prop up as more than they are - regurgitated Kirby/Ditko ideas - Doug actually wrote a great piece on Jack in Amazing Heroes #100, also included below).

It ends with Stan admitting 'next ish is gonna be real different! The whole plot was dreamed up by Sunny Steve and it was just nutty enough for Stan to okay it!' 

Mmmhmmm.

[Mmehdy]

I agree great issue!!!

[Dr. Haydn]

Here's an interesting tidbit from the letter column: a fan comes to Steve Ditko's defense concerning criticism about how he draws feet.

Around this time, as I recall, Ditko poked fun at himself in a different issue of ASM with a scene in a modern art museum. J. Jonah Jameson was giving an art aficionado the grand tour, and they ended up in a room that consisted entirely of paintings of human feet (along with a thought balloon by Stan Lee that stated, "Boy! I wish I could draw feet like that!").

Self-deprecating humor. One more thing that you would never find in a DC comic from 1964.

 

[Dr. Haydn]

...and then there's this interesting tidbit from the "coming attractions" section. Did Stan already forget that Steve Ditko would be drawing the Hulk feature (NOT Mr. D. Ayers?)

[Dr. Haydn]

Oh yeah. The story was great too!

[Dr. Haydn]

Not the first nor the last time that Peter was racked with self-doubt about his spidery alter ego, but the most effective example we've seen so far. I especially like Peter's shadow on the right. Nice effect by Ditko.

[Steven Valdez]

On 2/10/2024 at 4:17 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

The better Stan's collaborators were, the better the stories turned out, it seems.

Same for Roy Thomas as well. He wrote so much better when Neal Adams or Barry Smith was illustrating, than say, Werner Roth or Don Heck.