Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[Mmehdy]

Next great issue  Fury #13.......

Edited February 19 by Mmehdy

[Dr. Haydn]

Interesting to see Dave Cockrum's positive letter on Sgt. Fury #6. He had a pretty good career in comics later on.

Edited February 20 by Dr. Haydn
minor rewording

[Prince Namor]

On 2/20/2024 at 8:26 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Interesting to see Dave Cockrum's positive letter on Sgt. Fury #6. He had a pretty good career in comics later on.

He sure did. I was just reading one of my very first new comic books from when I was a kid, Superboy #195 (March of 1973, I was 9 1/2), featuring Dave's back up story, with Erg-1 (Wildfire)'s first appearance. Cockrum was a huge comic book fan, and a great creator and artist. 

That 2 story comic is still one of my favorite reads of all time...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Journey into Mystery #107 - Lee, Kirby, Stone, Simek

A Kirby story for sure... would love to know the changes...

Part ONE:

Edited February 21 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

 

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Journey into Mystery #107

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Journey into Mystery #107 - Original Art, Page 2

It's unfortunate that so much of this art was trimmed... I'd really like to know what Kirby's intentions were in these early scenes...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Journey into Mystery #107 - Original Art, Page 5

Here we can see some of his notes at the top, that Stan follows directly, but the sides are cut off and the bottom panel notes are partially cut off...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Journey into Mystery #107 - Original Art, Page 8

More top panel notes...

[Unca Ben]

On 2/9/2024 at 9:17 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

The better Stan's collaborators were, the better the stories turned out, it seems.

Being a two-way street.  When those collaborators worked with Stan, their stories were better than when they didn't work with Stan.

[Unca Ben]

On 2/10/2024 at 8:53 PM, Mmehdy said:

Stan is no "Walt Disney"...cant come close....showrunner does not cut it either...its make up as much credit possible on the marvel with little or no imput. As a organizer I will give him that, if but no Jack or Steve doing kick as super hero comics in the early 60's no marvel universe. FF and Spiderman carried the day for Marvel despite Disney Duck out selling them 3-1.

Ub Iwerks ?

[Unca Ben]

Stan consistently gave credit to guys like Kirby and Ditko.

An example of someone taking credit for mega-popular comic characters that turned into a long-running brand spawning billions of comics, TV shows, etc. with world wide recognition: MLJ comic's editor and co-publisher John Goldwater maintaining that he created Archie and Betty and Veronica and Jughead, etc., and not Bob Montana.

[Prince Namor]

On 2/22/2024 at 2:01 AM, Unca Ben said:

Being a two-way street.  When those collaborators worked with Stan, their stories were better than when they didn't work with Stan.

Based on what? Opinion? Everyone's tastes are the same? Dumbing down creativity is the best form of art?

You can have 'The Wild Bunch'. Good movie, enjoyable, etc. I'll take 'Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia" any day. So much more raw and pure in the artist's vision. 

Not everyone wants their stories/music/movies to be a cookie-cutter repeat of what they've seen before - what makes them feel safe - what gives them comfort.

[Prince Namor]

On 2/22/2024 at 2:32 AM, Unca Ben said:

Stan consistently gave credit to guys like Kirby and Ditko.

No, Stan gave that credit as a way of STEALING the WRITING credit and PAY from those creators. 

On 2/22/2024 at 2:32 AM, Unca Ben said:

An example of someone taking credit for mega-popular comic characters that turned into a long-running brand spawning billions of comics, TV shows, etc. with world wide recognition: MLJ comic's editor and co-publisher John Goldwater maintaining that he created Archie and Betty and Veronica and Jughead, etc., and not Bob Montana.

Stan did the same thing. He strong armed Marvel into giving him a Million Dollar a year contract so that he wouldn't sue for OWNERSHIP of the characters. Marvel so feared the lies Stan had used to build up his reputation, they didn't even let it go to court or even WAIT to go to court and settled with Lee in right about 30 days.

Even publically AND under OATH, Stan spent the last 20+ years of his life saying that HE created all of those characters and stories and then simply assigned an artist to draw them. 

[Unca Ben]

On 2/21/2024 at 2:57 PM, Prince Namor said:

No, Stan gave that credit as a way of STEALING the WRITING credit and PAY from those creators. 

Stan did the same thing. He strong armed Marvel into giving him a Million Dollar a year contract so that he wouldn't sue for OWNERSHIP of the characters. Marvel so feared the lies Stan had used to build up his reputation, they didn't even let it go to court or even WAIT to go to court and settled with Lee in right about 30 days.

Even publically AND under OATH, Stan spent the last 20+ years of his life saying that HE created all of those characters and stories and then simply assigned an artist to draw them. 

Can you write to get your point across without character assassination or without loaded language?  I bet you can. 

After all, Saint Jack has been quoted as saying that he creating Spider-Man.  But when Jack does it, the excuse is "his faulty memory".  But Stan, well Stan is lying .
That's what I mean by loaded language.  (along with STEALING). But it is all the rage in writing, nowadays.

 

Edited February 21 by Unca Ben

[Unca Ben]

On 2/21/2024 at 2:51 PM, Prince Namor said:

Based on what? Opinion? Everyone's tastes are the same? Dumbing down creativity is the best form of art?

No.  While I do have an opinion since I read and collect Ditko's Charlton and Kirby's fourth world, I base my statements on readership, fan acclaim, cultural significance, longevity of the characters, influence on future comic book creators, etc.

For one example:  one thing Ditko's Blue Beetle and Captain Atom books didn't do was usher in "the Charlton Age of Comics".

[gunsmokin]

On 2/21/2024 at 6:14 PM, Unca Ben said:

No.  While I do have an opinion since I read and collect Ditko's Charlton and Kirby's fourth world, I base my statements on readership, fan acclaim, cultural significance, longevity of the characters, influence on future comic book creators, etc.

For one example:  one thing Ditko's Blue Beetle and Captain Atom books didn't do was usher in "the Charlton Age of Comics".

Problem is that some of your assumptions are based on Lee’s claims of creatorship as well as plotting and writing. In Lee’s words from the beginning, Kirby and Ditko were the artists that drew Lee’s stories and that was utter nonsense.

[Unca Ben]

On 2/21/2024 at 4:16 PM, gunsmokin said:

Problem is that some of your assumptions are based on Lee’s claims of creatorship as well as plotting and writing. In Lee’s words from the beginning, Kirby and Ditko were the artists that drew Lee’s stories and that was utter nonsense.

Not true.  I can show you letters pages and Bullpen Bulletins in Stan's own words that show otherwise.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 2/21/2024 at 4:05 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Journey into Mystery #107 - Original Art, Page 5

Here we can see some of his notes at the top, that Stan follows directly, but the sides are cut off and the bottom panel notes are partially cut off...

Some interesting differences here when you compare Jack's margin notes to Stan's dialogue. In panel 2, Jack describes the guy at the door as a secretary: Stan changes this to the Grey Gargoyle's superior. 

I guess Stan came up with the Gargoyle's civilian name (Paul Duval)? Jack just calls him "our boy" above panel 3.

[Dr. Haydn]

So, Parisians read English newspapers? 

I checked online: as far as I can tell, this particular paper never existed.

[Prince Namor]

On 2/22/2024 at 6:39 AM, Unca Ben said:

Can you write to get your point across without character assassination or without loaded language?  I bet you can. 

After all, Saint Jack has been quoted as saying that he creating Spider-Man.  But when Jack does it, the excuse is "his faulty memory".  But Stan, well Stan is lying .
That's what I mean by loaded language.  (along with STEALING). But it is all the rage in writing, nowadays.

Nice try.

Jack brought Spider-man to Lee. It's fact.

Simon and Kirby had a character, called Spider-man (with hyphen). The logo was done, letters to editors and their response and possible changes exist. It's exactly what happened. No faulty memory by Jack at all.

Groth didn't really push Kirby on the specifics, but in an interview done the same year, Kirby expounds upon it:

 

PITTS: So, you’re saying you had the original idea and presented it to Ditko?

KIRBY: I didn’t present it to Ditko. I presented everything to Stan Lee. I drew up the costume, I gave him the character and I put it in the hands of Marvel. By giving it to Stan Lee, I put it in the hands of Marvel, because Stan Lee had contact with the publisher. I didn’t. Stan Lee gave it to Steve Ditko because I was doing everything else, until Johnny Romita came in to take up some of the slack. There were very few people up at Marvel; Artie Simek did all the lettering and production.

KIRBY: My initial concept was practically the same. But the credit for developing Spider-Man goes to Steve Ditko; he wrote it and he drew it and he refined it. Steve Ditko is a thorough professional. And he has an intellect. Personality wise, he’s a bit withdrawn, but there are lots of people like that. But Steve Ditko, despite the fact that he doesn’t disco– although he may now; I haven’t seen him for a long time– Steve developed Spider-Man and made a salable item out of it.

There are many others who take credit for it, but Steve Ditko, it was entirely in his hands. I can tell you that Stan Lee had other duties besides writing Spider-Man or developing Spider-Man or even thinking about it.

FROM Conversations with Comic Book Creators by Leonard Pitts Jr. 1986/87