Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1964

Sgt. Fury #6 - Kirby really puts his military experience to use with the plotting of these stories. Having been in the thick of things, he knew what it was like and how people reacted...

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1964

Sgt. Fury #6 - 

Part THREE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1964

Sgt. Fury #6 - ADs from this issue

[Dr. Haydn]

It's been suggested that George Stonewell was modeled upon George Rockwell, founder of the American N*zi Party. Certainly, ex-infantryman Kirby recognized (and fought) fascism and bigotry wherever he saw it!

Is this the first Silver Age Marvel tale that takes an overt stand against prejudice? It seemed like an appropriate storyline for this title, given the diversity within the ranks of the Howlers.

 

[shadroch]

" Somewhere, under all that hate, there is a ghost of a man".   

I love the irony.

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 8/14/2023 at 10:45 AM, shadroch said:

" Somewhere, under all that hate, there is a ghost of a man".   

I love the irony.

There was a story in a DC war comic from the same time period, and a look back at the two stories helps delineate the difference between Marvel and DC at the time.  Although the stories were hugely similar, both ending with blood transfusions, the DC story's bigot was a cartoon who looked and behaved like an orc, was a terrible soldier and so stupid he didn't even realize black people have red blood.  Marvel's bigot was an intelligent guy who was even heroic at points and you'd like him if you never knew he was a bigot.  Bigots like the DC character were not unheard of in real life in the 60s (and sadly they've become more emboldened recently after moving into the shadows for a while), but the Marvel character was far more nuanced.

[shadroch]

As a kid, I always thought  DC talked down to me, while Marvel assumed I knew that a hurricane-force wind could drive a straw thru a 2X4. 

I think the fact that most DC stories were self-contained, whereas Marvel stories were part of a soap opera affected the pacing and character development , as well. 

[sfcityduck]

On 8/14/2023 at 1:24 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

Sgt. Fury #6 - 'Written' by Ex-Sergeant U.S. Army: Stan Lee - 'Illustrated by Ex-Infantryman U.S. Army by Jack Kirby - Inked by Geo. Bell (George Roussos) and Lettered by Art Simek.

Not sure if we've gone into this much but... Stan sort of overstates his military duty; he was in the U.S. Army Signal Corps, a branch of the U.S. Army that specializes exclusively with communications and information systems. He was stationed in New Jersey and later Indiana. He joined almost a year after Pear Harbor, after Martin Goodman, as he did for others in his family, was able to get him the cushy detail stateside (per Vince Fago). In interviews, Stan talks about his time in the military and how he'd borrow someone's car every weekend, taking different women out on dates. 

 

Overstatement? The Signal Corps was a branch of the US Army (along with the Air Corps and the Ground Forces). Stan was a Sergeant. He was a Sergeant in the US Army. That he didn't go into a combat theater (other Signal Corp members did) doesn't make anything he said incorrect. Stan did not claim to serve in the infantry (and many guys who were in the ground forces never made it to a combate theater either).  Worth noting that most figures from the comic industry who went into the Armed Forces did not serve in combat theatrers - instead they did work stateside such as Milt Caniff who illustrated Army training manuals while also drawing Terry for pay and Male Call as charity work. Stan Lee also did training materials and manuals while in the Army.

No stolen valor here.  No "sort of overstates his military duty." Just a lack of historical context of how many folks serving in the Army never saw combat or even a combat theater.

I am confused by the claim that Martin Goodman, after he joined the military, had the pull to get Stan into a "cushy detail." How exactly did that work? Sounds like sour grapes.

EDITED TO ADD A LINK TO PROOF STAN SERVED IN THE US ARMY: https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record-detail.jsp?dt=893&mtch=1&cat=WR26&tf=F&sc=24994,24995,24996,24998,24997,24993,24981,24983&bc=,sl,fd&txt_24994=12184201&op_24994=0&nfo_24994=V,8,1900&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=603043

Edited August 16, 2023 by sfcityduck

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1964

Tales to Astonish #54 - 'Daringly Written' by Stan Lee - Dramatically Drawn by Don Heck - and Deftly Lettered by Art Simek.

So here again we get an example of Lee without the benefit of Kirby or Ditko. All 3 of them could write some silly stories at one time or the other, but it's pretty consistently bad when Lee has to rely upon a Don Heck or Dick Ayers to co-author some of these month to month. The use of the fan club angle, the communist leader... Stan had a small handful of paper thin plot ideas that he would use over and over (the hero quits! The crossover! The Communist bad guy!, etc.) and on the books that Kirby or Ditko didn't really give much of themselves to... it would continue to be noticeable.

With Giant-Man as the focus, Lee would himself seemingly realize that the book wasn't up to par, first, trying a crossover appearance with Spider-man, and then adding a Ditko revamp of the Hulk by the middle of the year. The new Hulk, one that neither Kirby or Lee had first put together, would go on to become one of their most beloved characters. 

As Editor, Lee was someone who was very much aware of what silly fanboys wrote in and said, so Giant Man and the Wasp must have still been unfavored, because a year after Hulk began sharing the book with him, the Insect Duo would be relegated to the pages of the Avengers and Sub-Mariner would get his own feature. They'd simply exist to just fill out the team roster for the next few decades, 

I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did here. Really it has to be one of the worst written series' of the Marvel Silver Age. Kirby only did 4 issues of it in 1963, and he'd do none in 1964. It shows. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1964

Tales to Astonish #54 - AD for DD#1 (still with no cover)

From J David Spurlock - 

KIRBY SAVES MARVEL AS DAREDEVIL #1 GOES AWOL

Nothing against our fave, Bill Everett who had a full-time job elsewhere but, it took Everett SIX MONTHS to NOT complete DD #1 (Ditko & Brodsky had to help, plus the Kirby cover/splash). Goodman's decree to Stan was not only to get a new book out called "Daredevil," to usurp Lev Gleason's rights, but it was part of a TWO-BOOK deal. He wanted to copy his two new hits. The new group book (ala FF) was X-Men where Jack came up with MUTANTS and the solo book (ala Spidy) was Daredevil in which Stan mimicked Spidey's radioactive origin, dead elder and love interest (much of which came from Kirby & Ditko's contributions to Spidey). The blind lawyer was Bill's concept. The earliest ad even tied the hyphen in Spider-Man to Dare-Devil (though no hyphen is in the masthead). But Everett was SOOOO late, DD didn't come out for months and Marvel had to be saved AGAIN by Jack Kirby whipping out the UNPLANNED Avengers #1 to fill the Sept 1963 spot in the printing schedule. — JDS

 

From the Everett issue of Alter Ego circa '69/'70 Bill said, "I found that I couldn't do [Daredevil] and handle my [full-time paper plant] job, because it was a managerial job; I didn't get paid overtime but I was on an annual salary, so my time was not my own. I was putting in 14 or 15 hours a day at the plant and then to come home and try to do comics at night was just too much. And I didn't make deadlines – I just couldn't make them – so I just did the one issue and didn't do any more."

 

SO if Avengers wasn't even planned... that adds even more credence to the idea that Kirby either quit a bunch of books at once (all revolving around when he would've found out Larry Lieber's name was given credit for scripting, AND the big argument between Stan and Jack over Hulk, where Jack tore up the pages and threw them in the trash....

 

 

 

[Math Teacher]

I don't believe there was a Marvel hero whose costume was so inconsistently drawn as was Ant-Man/Giant-Man. Sometimes he has V-shaped lines on the front of his costume, sometimes he has V-shaped lines on the back of his costume, and sometimes he has no V-shaped lines at all. If you look at issue #54 above posted by @Prince Namor, you can see what I am talking about. I honestly don't understand why they weren't just eliminated.

[shadroch]

On 8/15/2023 at 6:22 AM, Math Teacher said:

I don't believe there was a Marvel hero whose costume was so inconsistently drawn as was Ant-Man/Giant-Man. Sometimes he has V-shaped lines on the front of his costume, sometimes he has V-shaped lines on the back of his costume, and sometimes he has no V-shaped lines at all. If you look at issue #54 above posted by @Prince Namor, you can see what I am talking about. I honestly don't understand why they weren't just eliminated.

Janet enjoyed making new uniforms for her man.  Do you think Hank Pym, the original absent-minded professor sat around making minor adjustments to his wears?

It must have been a challenge to slightly alter their uniforms each appearance, but what self-respecting superhero wears the same outfit more than a few times? 

Do you think Batman has one batsuit?

 

Stan Lee wrote that his MOS( military occupational specialty) was that of a playwright, one of only a few men given that specialty.  The Army doesn't just randomly assign people MOSs, you need to show an aptitude for it.  Unlike one of his former employees, Stan never claimed to have been in Normandy months before he got there, so if anyone overstated his military record, it wasn't Stan.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 8/15/2023 at 9:35 AM, shadroch said:

Unlike one of his former employees, Stan never claimed to have been in Normandy months before he got there, so if anyone overstated his military record, it wasn't Stan.

Dees anyone else on this thread think it's bad form to malign someone who left their family and flew halfway around the world to get shot at?

[bc]

On 8/15/2023 at 6:48 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Dees anyone else on this thread think it's bad form to malign someone who left their family and flew halfway around the world to get shot at?

I don't like to see it directed at anyone who served our country in any capacity.

-bc

[jimjum12]

I personally think that Stan AND Jack, after all the creativity they were blessed with, should BOTH be bent over the knee and given the Belt Whipping Of The Gods for all the fighting and pettiness.  GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[shadroch]

On 8/15/2023 at 3:48 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Dees anyone else on this thread think it's bad form to malign someone who left their family and flew halfway around the world to get shot at?

They didn't fly. 

[bc]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:33 PM, shadroch said:

They didn't fly. 

So now you are quibbling about their means of transport?

Okay, he took a boat. What does that validate?

-bc

[shadroch]

I don't think looking at someone's record and comparing it to what they said is wrong. Kirby's interviews of his time in France don't line up with what seem to be verified facts.

He said he got frostbite and spent almost a year in a hospital before being shipped home.  He left for Europe in August 1944 and was sent home in January 1945. Perhaps he meant he spent almost a year in the hospital after he got home, but he was back at work by then.

His memories are off.  I don't see what's wrong with pointing that out, when people take other parts of the interviews as gospel.

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by shadroch

[Prince Namor]

When I speak of Lee's military record, I base it on facts vs what he said... which in Stan's case always makes it a bit suspect. 

The researchers I hang with are even more focused on proof than I can ever imagine. I'll get out to those archives one day...

 

From Facebook:

 

Lee wasn't in Queens for very long before he was moved to North Carolina.

Here's what I was able to come up with on Stan Lee's military service. This is better and more accurate information than I've seen previously. The source is the Twitter account of the St. Louis Military Records Archive.

https://twitter.com/stlouisarc.../status/1062472964166311936

I had the idea the account might say something about Lee after Lee passed away and sure enough they did.

1. Is Stan Lee's enlistment form. You can see Lee enlisted on Nov. 9, 1942. Lee's occupation is listed as: Editor-Art Director. He was living with his mother and father at the time. Lee claims to have four years of high school and one year of college. (NOTE: I believe this may be a lie… there is no evidence whatsoever that Lee ever went to college) I don't recall ever seeing any previous mention of Lee attending college. Lee was first assigned to Camp Upton (not Fort Monmouth) on Long Island which was being used as an internment camp for Japanese Americans.

2. Is a letter dated Nov. 27, 1943 asking that Lee be transferred from Duke University, where the Signal Corps had a training film operation to Long Island City, New York. The letter stats an acute shortage of camera men, film editors, sound men, writers and projectionists.

3. Is the reply from Lee's CO saying that Lee had been transferred to Duke in July of 1943 and at the time of the letter was the only writer on duty and was working on a film which was four weeks from completion. If the production time frame was typical it suggests Lee perhaps wrote 4-5 training films between July and December.

4. Is a pay log from Lee's assignment at Fort Benjamin Harrison in Indiana which covers July 1944-August 31, 1945 at which time Lee was discharged. For some reason Lee's MM rifle score of 156 from 12/22/42 is mentioned.

5. Lee's discharge paper from Sept. 29, 1945. Lee did achieve the rank of Sergeant, was honorably discharged. The only decoration or citation Lee was awarded was a Good Conduct Medal.

6. Page two of a document which lists Lee and another soldier as 288 "screen writers."

As I indicated in my previous post there is no indication Lee wrote more than a handful of pages for Timely during the 2 years, 10 months and 21 days he was in the service.

 

There is no evidence that Stan Lee was ever classified as a ‘playwright’ in the US Military. It specifically states he was the only writer on duty, so the story about being asked to ‘slow down’ because he was making everyone else look bad, is most obviously a lie.

 

Stan learned propaganda in the military. And it ended up suiting him well.

 

[Prince Namor]

On 8/15/2023 at 3:22 PM, Math Teacher said:

I don't believe there was a Marvel hero whose costume was so inconsistently drawn as was Ant-Man/Giant-Man. Sometimes he has V-shaped lines on the front of his costume, sometimes he has V-shaped lines on the back of his costume, and sometimes he has no V-shaped lines at all. If you look at issue #54 above posted by @Prince Namor, you can see what I am talking about. I honestly don't understand why they weren't just eliminated.

Some of that had to do with Kirby doing the covers and probably not paying attention to the detail of whatever someone else is doing (as artists are sometimes prone to do) and the Editor letting a detail like that pass. And... Heck just getting a bit lazy on it. Looking back at the first few issues, Jack had a pretty specific look to the costume... it just looks like he forgot what it was as he would be asked to do the covers, and Heck certainly didn't keep it up on the interiors...

For all of the small changes (and sometimes large changes) that Lee would make on books, it's weird that a detail like that would pass month to month...