Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[sfcityduck]

On 8/25/2023 at 8:36 AM, shadroch said:

Jack had a chance to do the right thing in the Joe Simon case and instead was a good company man, screwing himself in the process.

His family had a chance to do something for the entire industry and instead settled for an undisclosed amount.  I won't question their motives, perhaps they needed the money.

They got $30M to $50M. They got recognition for Jack. The Kirby family don't owe "the industry" anything and their case was at best a "win-lose" for a segment of the industry. The case was a dispute between Marvel and the men working in what appeared to be a "work made for hire" arrangements for it during a discrete period of time. So it was not an industry-wide issue or even a Marvel-wide issue. Every case is different so others from that time period can take a shot if they want. But the Kirby family were getting legal advice and knew things that no one here does. So I don't think any of us can second guess them with any level of intelligence.

Edited August 25, 2023 by sfcityduck

[shadroch]

On 8/25/2023 at 8:43 AM, sfcityduck said:

They got $30M to $50M. They got recognition for Jack. They don't owe "the industry" anything. The case was a dispute between Marvel and the men working in what appeared to be a "work made for hire" arrangements during a discrete period of time for Marvel. So it was not an industry-wide issue or even a Marvel-wide issue. Every case is different so others from that time period can take a shot if they want. But the Kirby family were getting legal advice and knew things that no one here does. So I don't think any of us can second guess them with any level of intelligence.

I'm not second-guessing them. They got life-changing, generational wealth.  I imagine I'd have done the same thing in their shoes.  They had a chance, but not an obligation, to help the entire industry. It's a shame they didn't see it through but Disney made it worth their while not to. 

[sfcityduck]

On 8/25/2023 at 8:54 AM, shadroch said:

I'm not second-guessing them. They got life-changing, generational wealth.  I imagine I'd have done the same thing in their shoes.  They had a chance, but not an obligation, to help the entire industry. It's a shame they didn't see it through but Disney made it worth their while not to. 

Fair enough.  If the lawsuit had proceeded, it might or might not have helped the men at Marvel deemed to be doing "work made for hire." Or it might have helped Disney. We'll never know. 

Also, I am curious about your comment about Kirby being a company man.  Are you talking about the 1969 lawsuit?  

Edited August 25, 2023 by sfcityduck

[shadroch]

No, I'm talking about the 1966 lawsuit when Joe Simon sued Marvel over ownership of Captain America, Kirby's testimony about how Cap was created was very different than what he and Simon said in other places.  The story I've heard is that Kirby was informed that if Marvel lost the case, the loss of revenue would result in Kirby making much less money.  In reality, if he'd been truthful, he and Simon might have created bundles of money. 

His testimony is a public record and can easily be read on the internet. He also affirmed that his statement was the whole truth. 

To paraphrase his concluding statement- All the work I did at Timely belonged to Timely, and everything belonged to Timely when I left. 

He claimed he only worked in the Timely offices, that Simon only worked in the Timely offices and that all the work they did belonged to Timely.  There are a number of minor things he got wrong.  

Had he not been in fear of losing his job and been truthful, he and Simon might have ended up much better off.  Instead, he sided with Goodman and kept getting his paycheck.

It took a quarter century for Marvel to recognize Joe Simons's rights as creator of Captain America. It could have been settled in the 1960s.

Edited August 25, 2023 by shadroch

[Zonker]

On 8/25/2023 at 10:14 AM, sfcityduck said:

 

I doubt Disney has any concerns about facing a lawsuit from Lieber - one of their Star witnesses - and I don’t know why you mention Heck - Kirby claimed he created IM.  Lot of speculation here. 

I mention Lieber, and the Colan and Heck estates, because earlier this year Disney reportedly settled with each of them.  My understanding is there remains an ongoing dispute with the Ditko estate.  

[sfcityduck]

On 8/25/2023 at 9:32 AM, shadroch said:

No, I'm talking about the 1966 lawsuit when Joe Simon sued Marvel over ownership of Captain America, Kirby's testimony about how Cap was created was very different than what he and Simon said in other places.  The story I've heard is that Kirby was informed that if Marvel lost the case, the loss of revenue would result in Kirby making much less money.  In reality, if he'd been truthful, he and Simon might have created bundles of money. 

His testimony is a public record and can easily be read on the internet. He also affirmed that his statement was the whole truth. 

To paraphrase his concluding statement- All the work I did at Timely belonged to Timely, and everything belonged to Timely when I left. 

He claimed he only worked in the Timely offices, that Simon only worked in the Timely offices and that all the work they did belonged to Timely.  There are a number of minor things he got wrong.  

Had he not been in fear of losing his job and been truthful, he and Simon might have ended up much better off.  Instead, he sided with Goodman and kept getting his paycheck.

It took a quarter century for Marvel to recognize Joe Simons's rights as creator of Captain America. It could have been settled in the 1960s.

Got it. 

I think there's no doubt that if CA was created independent of Timely it was by Joe Simon. Problem for Simon though was that the comments on the initial design could support that Simon created the character in response to a conversation with Goodman. Simon says: "Here's the character...", which implies that he'd discussed a character with Goodman before he sent image over. Could be that Goodman told him to create a character for a new comic. Don't know if Goodman ever testified on this issue.

In any event, I think Simon was generous to Kirby by designating him a co-creator since Simon came up with the concept and did the costume design. The initial character sketch that Joe Simon sent to Goodman also stated that Joe was working on a --script and Joe also has said he did layout for the first story. So the concept and character design appear to have been his.  So maybe Kirby thought since his introduction was working on the stories for the first issue that it was work for Timely. Maybe he didn't have in mind Simon's actual pre-Kirby work on the concept. Who knows.

Kirby clearly was honest when he stated he believed that the work he did for the companies was owned by them because he said that over and over later in his life. He was happy with his deal from the companies which was better than most (which was one reason he was anti-unions) and his understanding was that his work was owned by the companies he worked for. Turns out that according to the Courts for his late 1950s to early 1960s work at Marvel he was right.

I'm not sure I'd call Kirby a liar, but he should have known better and deferred to Simon - who after all came up with the idea (ok ok stole the idea from MLJ) and designed the costume (and likely the scripted the first story).  

Edited August 25, 2023 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 8/25/2023 at 10:54 AM, Zonker said:

I mention Lieber, and the Colan and Heck estates, because earlier this year Disney reportedly settled with each of them.  My understanding is there remains an ongoing dispute with the Ditko estate.  

Big switch for Larry from a decade ago when he was on the opposite side of the fence from Toberoff. Likely smart move for Disney, as I'm sure the payoff was helpful to the settling parties and recognition is nice, but likely a shadow of what amount Kirby's family got. Disney avoids bad PR. I'm guessing that Ditko is rolling in his grave.

Edited August 25, 2023 by sfcityduck

[shadroch]

  

I've never understood why Kirby testified against Simon instead of joining him in the ownership fight.  Marvel had turned Cap into a star. He had a cartoon and was in two books a month. You'd have to think DC would pay big bucks to get Kirby and Captain America back working with Simon.  Had Joe Simon won the lawsuit and owned Captain America, the business/hobby would have been very different. I wonder if Kirby thought he had burned his other bridges and Marvel was his only option.

I believe that Joe Simon came up with the idea for Captain America and shared it with Jack because he recognized Kirby's ability and wanted to bond him into a long-term partnership. I don't think many people consider Simon the more talented of the two, but he was the better businessman.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by shadroch

[Prince Namor]

On 8/25/2023 at 5:30 PM, shadroch said:

 I've never understood why Kirby testified against Simon instead of joining him in the ownership fight. 

Simon didn't include Kirby in the case. He was claiming Captain America for HIMSELF.

Kirby had already been burned in court once and it led to his loss of work with DC Comics for a decade.

In what Universe would the smart move been for him to testify against his employers in 1966?

Especially when he had nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing so.

On 8/25/2023 at 5:30 PM, shadroch said:

I believe that Joe Simon came up with the idea for Captain America and shared it with Jack because he recognized Kirby's ability and wanted to bond him into a long-term partnership. I don't think many people consider Simon the more talented of the two, but he was the better businessman.

Sure. Because that's what people have done throughout the history of comics. Create something and then share the profits of it with an artist who had nothing to do with it. And let him sign his name to it just as big as your own. And spend 20 years telling people you're co-creators, before changing your story, just to win it back.

Yeah, ok. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

On 8/25/2023 at 1:54 PM, Zonker said:

I mention Lieber, and the Colan and Heck estates, because earlier this year Disney reportedly settled with each of them.  My understanding is there remains an ongoing dispute with the Ditko estate.  

Exactly. 

Every lawyer who was interviewed and every trade magazine said the same thing. Disney was the one who settled. They had more to lose if it went to the Supreme Court and they lost.

In these new rounds, it was probably a pretty easy settle with Lieber and the Colan and Heck estates. Disney settled quick so it wouldn't turn into another circus.

And the Ditko part of it is pretty quiet... that could get interesting.

[sfcityduck]

On 8/25/2023 at 5:44 PM, Prince Namor said:

Exactly. 

Every lawyer who was interviewed and every trade magazine said the same thing. Disney was the one who settled. They had more to lose if it went to the Supreme Court and they lost.

In these new rounds, it was probably a pretty easy settle with Lieber and the Colan and Heck estates. Disney settled quick so it wouldn't turn into another circus.

And the Ditko part of it is pretty quiet... that could get interesting.

There is a big difference between speculating on an outcome in 2014 and doing so today. The companies have already won this battle in the Game of Life case.  

Disney will pay some money for PR. But it isn't Kirby family money.  And Kirby family money was around 1 percent of the claimed damages. 

This boils down to some easy money for he creators or their estates which is material to them, but which is a pittance to Disney.  This is in no way a victory for creator rights, but it is very nice recognition that is deserved for some living and dead creators.

Steve Ditko has no case. His own words sink him. It doesn't help that Kirby claimed he created Spider-Man - especially if the Ditko Estate Attorney made that claim on behalf of Kirby.

[Prince Namor]

Re: The creation of Captain America

Keep in mind that it's very easy to see the immediate effect Kirby had upon Blue Bolt from Simon's first issue in 1940 (which Simon has wisely left unprinted since 1950) and the following issue that Kirby joined in.

What started out as a Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers inspired story, with heat rays and green smoke, becomes Kirby's real world cyclotrons and the fourth dimension... I could go on and on about what Kirby brought to that series (his usual... mutants, shrinking, dimensions, sympathetic villains, etc).

Most importantly, by issue #9, a month before Captain America, Blue Bolt (written by Kirby) is in civilian clothing, battling gangsters and fifth columnists, with non-powered sidekick BUCKY...

The truth is in the stories...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1964

Tales of Suspense #52 - Plot by: Stan Lee   Story by N. Korok (Don Rico)  Art by: Don Heck  Lettering By: S. Rosen

Cover by Jack Kirby with inks by Paul Reinman

The unheralded Don Rico joins in and gives us the Black Widow (Stan claims 'plot') following his past habit of creating strong women characters that can handle themselves (Leopard Girl with Al Hartley, Lorna the Jungle Girl, Jann of the Jungle - he wrote virtually all of Atlas' Jungle Comics in the 50's). He'd eventually move on to writing in film and TV, as well as over 60 paperback novels...

[sfcityduck]

On 8/26/2023 at 6:32 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

Most importantly, by issue #9, a month before Captain America, Blue Bolt (written by Kirby) is in civilian clothing, battling gangsters and fifth columnists, with non-powered sidekick BUCKY...

The truth is in the stories...

Bucky was just a Robin rip off.  Simon’s CA character design sent to Goodman says they plan to include a boy sidekick. Given how closely Simon and Kirby collaborated you can only speculate as to who came up with what name. If they self plagiarized the name Bucky for a Robin rip off that says nothing about who created CA.  Blue Bolt certainly does not prove anything about CA. Lots of folks were doing spy and war stories before CA because, after all, CA was himself a Shield rip off.

[sfcityduck]

On 8/26/2023 at 6:32 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

What started out as a Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers inspired story, with heat rays and green smoke, becomes Kirby's real world cyclotrons and the fourth dimension... I could go on and on about what Kirby brought to that series (his usual... mutants, shrinking, dimensions, sympathetic villains, etc).

 

Where do you think young Kirby got these ideas?  He did not make them up. He was what, 19?, when he worked on Blue Bolt.  He was drawing on pulps and other pop fiction. So were most comic artists and writers of the time. Cyclotrons were not an obscure thing. I think you need more context. 

[sfcityduck]

On 8/26/2023 at 6:32 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

Keep in mind that it's very easy to see the immediate effect Kirby had upon Blue Bolt from Simon's first issue in 1940 (which Simon has wisely left unprinted since 1950) and the following issue that Kirby joined in.

Does Joe Simon own the rights to Blue Bolt? If not, how is he leaving anything “unprinted”? In any event Blue Bolt 1 has been reprinted so your assertion is again wrong. Not sure why you attack Joe Simon. Kirby did not. Simon was a good artist who could draw in styles as diverse as Fine and Kirby. 

[shadroch]

On 8/25/2023 at 5:38 PM, Prince Namor said:

Simon didn't include Kirby in the case. He was claiming Captain America for HIMSELF.

Kirby had already been burned in court once and it led to his loss of work with DC Comics for a decade.

In what Universe would the smart move been for him to testify against his employers in 1966?

Especially when he had nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing so.

Sure. Because that's what people have done throughout the history of comics. Create something and then share the profits of it with an artist who had nothing to do with it. And let him sign his name to it just as big as your own. And spend 20 years telling people you're co-creators, before changing your story, just to win it back.

Yeah, ok. 

Do you think every S&K book was a 50-50 creation?  Partners, real partners, split the credit 50-50 even if one lifts more of the load.   As I'm not aware of any creative team that stayed together almost two decades and across multiple publishers, I can't compare or contrast how S&K handled things with how their peers did. 

As S&K had the contract with Timely, I think Kirby would have been entitled to half of whatever Simon did with it in the future.

Edited August 26, 2023 by shadroch

[Prince Namor]

Incidentally, Don Rico's estate is one that Disney settled with. I guess the Black Widow was his claim. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1964

Tales of Suspense #52 - Story Plot: Stan Lee   --script & Art: L.D.Lieber   Inking: Paul Reinman  Lettering: S. Rosen

Edited August 26, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1964

Tales of Suspense #52 - Story Plot: Stan Lee   -script & Art: L.D.Lieber   Inking: Chic Stone  Lettering: R. Holloway