Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[shadroch]

On 9/21/2023 at 5:09 AM, gunsmokin said:

gee, maybe Kirby didn't "fail so spectacularly"

When Kirby left Marvel for DC, did anyone expect he'd be back just a few years later? Kirby started his massive Fourth World Opus in 1970/71, and by 1974 it was canceled and written off as a failed experiment. None of his characters, except Kamandi, were in print. New Gods-canceled  Forever People-canceled  Mister Miracle-canceled  OMAC-canceled.  Jimmy Olsen- absorbed into a different title. Kamandi- kept alive because of the hope of a movie.   If my child presented me with a report card like that, I'd consider it a spectacular failure. Others might find failure more acceptable.

   The evidence is that neither party was interested in renewing their contract. DC thought they weren't getting their money's worth, and Kirby( once again) didn't feel he was getting the respect he deserved. Kirby was in his late fifties and likely had years left on his mortgage. Would anyone have blamed Lee and Marvel if they didn't welcome him back? 

I have always been a bit suspicious of DC circulation numbers, as everywhere I lived, Marvel outsold them. If you didn't have the money to buy all the books you wanted, you could be confident the DCs would still be there a few days later, but books like Spidey and Avengers would sell out quickly. Superman was supposedly outselling Spiderman when I'd see five Spideys sold for each Superman.   

Batman didn't sell well at all by the 70s.   Detective was in line to be canceled until someone pointed out it was the company's namesake.   Miller made Batman cool and sold a gazillion copies, but before that, both Batman and Detective were well down on the direct sales list each month.

DC had superior numbers until the direct market came along, and retailers started buying to fit their buyer's needs. For whatever reason, Marvel crushed DC in direct sales.

Edited September 21, 2023 by shadroch

[shadroch]

On 9/20/2023 at 9:00 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

When I was focusing on Marvel's main titles in the 70s (probably due to the hype), I missed out on some great stuff in the second-line books (Starlin's Captain Marvel, Gerber's Howard the Duck, McGregor/Buckler's Black Panther, etc.)

I guess it was like DC in the 1960s: the Superman books carried the company, but most of the truly creative stuff appeared elsewhere in the "lesser" titles.

No book was hyped more than Howard the Duck. Marvel even had him run for President, outside of his books.

[Prince Namor]

Fourth World Omnibus: Multiple printings over and over the last 20 years.

Stripperella: Not so much.

 

Hype goes out of style quickly. Good stories resell over and over. 

 

Wikipedia: In 2003, ex-stripper Janet Clover, a.k.a. "Jazz", a.k.a. "Stripperella", filed a lawsuit in the Daytona Beach, Florida circuit court against Viacom, Stan Lee, and Pamela Anderson, claiming she is Stripperella's true creator and Stan Lee stole her idea when she discussed it during a "private dance session".

 

Wow, even his lamest ideas he stole from someone else!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Amazing Spider-man #13 - Stan Lee, Author  Steve Ditko, Artist     Lettered by: Art Simek

Lee goes to great lengths to try and show a division of labor on these stories. Author is a huge stretch for someone who simply writes dialogue.

What a cool issue this must have been when it came out... Ditko was at the height of his talent.

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Amazing Spider-man #13 -

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Amazing Spider-man #13 - Letters Page

[shadroch]

Anyone can file a lawsuit, just as anyone can make wild, unsubstantiated claims.  I suspect if the lawsuit had gone anywhere, the op would bring that out, but instead this is just another piece of nonsense he flings at the wall, hoping something will stick.

Edited September 21, 2023 by shadroch

[Zonker]

We'll never know the full story behind the cancellation of the Fourth World books.  The easy answer is that the audience simply rejected it as poor quality, but I am not so sure it was as simple as that.

DC re-started the New Gods by Denny O'Neil & Mike Vosburg with First Issue Special #13 in 1976.  Coincidentally the same month as the final Kamandi issue to contain Kirby artwork.  Kind of a slap in the face to Kirby, I'd think.  But why even bother to reboot something that was recognized to be a sales failure just a few years prior?  

I think several things worked against the Fourth World.  Some of them were Kirby's own doing, some of them not so much.

- As mentioned in this thread, Kirby chose to divert his readers from being further introduced to his main characters, and instead focused his 3rd issue of New Gods on the Black Racer, who only played a minor role in anything that came after.  Instead of further digging in to all the concepts he introduced into the early Jimmy Olsens, he instead pivoted to first the Don Rickles and then the latter-day vampire & werewolf stories in that title.  And he partially shifted the spotlight in the Forever People away from his title characters and towards Sonny Sumo for the middle part of the run.

- These weren't conventional super-hero comics, and about a third of the issues covers of Forever People and New Gods either didn't have the main characters shown in full costume, or else de-emphasized them in favor of putting the spotlight elsewhere.  DC probably made a mistake in launching Forever People #1 guest-starring Superman, rather than giving Kirby an issue of their best-selling Superman comic to print that story introducing his characters (DC could have pushed out by a month the first non-Weisinger Superman issue #233 to make room for the Kirby launch.)

- We've talked about the Robert Beerbohm / Neal Adams theory that all the fan-favorite runs of the time were hoarded and accounted as unsold, the result of fallen-off-the-truck affidavit fraud.  The theory might be self-serving in Adams' case, but it would explain why so many of the big-name artists' work was discontinued in those years, yet remains quite common today in the collectors' after-market (Neal Adams' X-Men, Deadman & GL/GA, Kirby's DC books, even the BWS Conan was on the verge of cancellation, only becoming a good seller it is said around the time of the Gil Kane fill-in issues )

- Just as Kirby was getting going, the fourth issues of New Gods, Forever People and Mister Miracle jumped in price along with all the other DCs to 25 cents.  So you could buy 4 of these DC Comics featuring still-unfamiliar characters for a dollar, or you could get 5 well-known Marvels for the same price.  Those were unfortunate headwinds blowing against Kirby launching his new universe.

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Zonker
clarified a couple of points left vague before

[gunsmokin]

On 9/21/2023 at 1:44 PM, Zonker said:

We'll never know the full story behind the cancellation of the Fourth World books.  The easy answer is that the audience rejected it, but I am not so sure it was as simple as that.

DC re-started the New Gods by Denny O'Neil & Mike Vosburg with First Issue Special #13 in 1976.  Coincidentally the same month as the final Kamandi issue to contain Kirby artwork.  Kind of a slap in the face to Kirby, I'd think.  But why even bother to reboot something that was recognized to be a sales failure just a few years prior?  

I think several things worked against the Fourth World.  Some of them were Kirby's own doing, some of them not so much.

- As mentioned in this thread, Kirby chose to divert his readers from being further introduced to his main characters, and instead focused his 3rd issue of New Gods on the Black Racer, who only played a minor role in anything that came after.  Instead of further digging in to all the concepts he introduced into the early Jimmy Olsens, he instead pivoted to first the Don Rickles and then the latter-day vampire & werewolf stories in that title.  And he partially shifted the spotlight in the Forever People away from his title characters and towards Sonny Sumo for the middle part of the run.

- These weren't conventional super-hero comics, and about a third of the issues of Forever People and New Gods either didn't have the main characters shown in full costume, or else de-emphasized them in favor of putting the spotlight elsewhere.  DC probably made a mistake in launching Forever People #1 guest-starring Superman, rather than giving Kirby an issue of their best-selling Superman comic to print that story introducing his characters (DC could have pushed out by a month the first non-Weisinger Superman issue #233 to make room for the Kirby launch.)

- We've talked about the Robert Beerbohm / Neal Adams theory that all the fan-favorite runs of the time were hoarded and accounted as unsold, the result of fallen-off-the-truck affidavit fraud.  The theory might be self-serving in Adams' case, but it would explain why so many of the big-name artists' work was discontinued in those years, yet remains quite common today in the collectors' after-market (Neal Adams' X-Men, Deadman & GL/GA, Kirby's DC books, even the BWS Conan was on the verge of cancellation, only becoming a good seller it is said around the time of the Gil Kane fill-in issues )

- Just as Kirby was getting going, the fourth issues of New Gods, Forever People and Mister Miracle jumped in price along with all the other DCs to 25 cents.  So you could buy 4 of these DC Comics featuring still-unfamiliar characters for a dollar, or you could get 5 well-known Marvels for the same price.  Those were unfortunate headwinds blowing against Kirby launching his new universe.

 

 

- 

there are hundreds of high grade copies of all the early 4th world books on the cgc census. Seems a lot of people not only bought them but took extra special care of them. Almost as if they were never distributed. More empirical data to be suspicious of.

Edited September 21, 2023 by gunsmokin

[jimjum12]

On 9/21/2023 at 2:49 PM, gunsmokin said:

there are hundreds of high grade copies of all the early 4th world books on the cgc census. Seems a lot of people not only bought them but took extra special care of them. Almost as if they were never distributed. More empirical data to be suspicious of.

It's like the Mile High 2 collection, which was claimed to be unsold AND unreturned, which were then accessed many years later by diligent back-issue dealers who managed to unearth them. It's easy to attribute some nefariousness to it all, but large mail order outfits like Robert Bell resulted in huge troves of back issues going back into the early 60's .... it wasn't stolen, it just sat unsold for many years, 4th World included. For example, Bell's inventory had close to a thousand copies of X-Men 10. Other real-time examples of product surplus would be an LCS that I frequented in the 80's. It was a Father - Son operations and the Son decided to pursue another career, leaving 10 years of back stock as the Dad suspended the comic division. There were 75 long boxes left covering the beginning of the 80's through McFarlane ASMs. He offered them to me once for 25K ... I thought about it but decided against it due to what the storage fees would amount to. For years, those who knew, would purchase back stock as needed. When Constantine got hot, they had 30 untouched copies in the back stock, sold at 30 bucks or so a piece. They had everything from Amethyst to Zap. That's just one store. Back in those days, if your monthly order was large enough, you got 50% off, so it behoved the retailer to double the amount they had sold and use the rest for long term back issue inventory and sales. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited September 21, 2023 by jimjum12

[Prince Namor]

On 9/21/2023 at 2:44 PM, Zonker said:

DC re-started the New Gods by Denny O'Neil & Mike Vosburg with First Issue Special #13 in 1976.  Coincidentally the same month as the final Kamandi issue to contain Kirby artwork.  Kind of a slap in the face to Kirby, I'd think.  But why even bother to reboot something that was recognized to be a sales failure just a few years prior?  

Great point.

On 9/21/2023 at 2:44 PM, Zonker said:

I think several things worked against the Fourth World.  Some of them were Kirby's own doing, some of them not so much.

- As mentioned in this thread, Kirby chose to divert his readers from being further introduced to his main characters, and instead focused his 3rd issue of New Gods on the Black Racer, who only played a minor role in anything that came after.  Instead of further digging in to all the concepts he introduced into the early Jimmy Olsens, he instead pivoted to first the Don Rickles and then the latter-day vampire & werewolf stories in that title.  And he partially shifted the spotlight in the Forever People away from his title characters and towards Sonny Sumo for the middle part of the run.

- These weren't conventional super-hero comics, and about a third of the issues of Forever People and New Gods either didn't have the main characters shown in full costume, or else de-emphasized them in favor of putting the spotlight elsewhere.  DC probably made a mistake in launching Forever People #1 guest-starring Superman, rather than giving Kirby an issue of their best-selling Superman comic to print that story introducing his characters (DC could have pushed out by a month the first non-Weisinger Superman issue #233 to make room for the Kirby launch.)

That and the fact that they didn't give them time to be fleshed out. If Thor was ended after 14 issues, it wouldn't be much remembered at all. Same as the Fantastic Four. It was later that we got to see behind the characters motivations with Doom and Sub-Mariner... and there'd be no Silver Surfer, Galactus, Black Panther, Inhumans, etc.

On 9/21/2023 at 2:44 PM, Zonker said:

- We've talked about the Robert Beerbohm / Neal Adams theory that all the fan-favorite runs of the time were hoarded and accounted as unsold, the result of fallen-off-the-truck affidavit fraud.  The theory might be self-serving in Adams' case, but it would explain why so many of the big-name artists' work was discontinued in those years, yet remains quite common today in the collectors' after-market (Neal Adams' X-Men, Deadman & GL/GA, Kirby's DC books, even the BWS Conan was on the verge of cancellation, only becoming a good seller it is said around the time of the Gil Kane fill-in issues )

I don't believe Houseroy when he says that - he's as big a liar as Lee was.

The truth is... Houseroy, same as Lee, got a benefit to keeping titles in print - they got PAID to let the artist do the writing. I'd suspect that if Infantino was getting the full writers pay for all of the Fourth World books, he'd have fought tooth and nail to keep them in print.

Which also tells us just how bad the numbers had to be for the Silver Surfer to get cancelled...

On 9/21/2023 at 2:44 PM, Zonker said:

- Just as Kirby was getting going, the fourth issues of New Gods, Forever People and Mister Miracle jumped in price along with all the other DCs to 25 cents.  So you could buy 4 of these DC Comics featuring still-unfamiliar characters for a dollar, or you could get 5 well-known Marvels for the same price.  Those were unfortunate headwinds blowing against Kirby launching his new universe.

Add to that the cheaper paper that DC was using and lack of the 'Stan Goldberg' style of color, a lot of those DC covers just didn't pop the way the Marvel covers did. It wasn't that the art wasn't as good - in many ways DC had great cover art - it just wasn't accentuated the way Marvel covers were.

PLUS he had that Stan Lee's pimp Vince Colletta inking his Jimmy Olsen books. Ugh!

On 9/21/2023 at 2:49 PM, gunsmokin said:

there are hundreds of high grade copies of all the early 4th world books on the cgc census. Seems a lot of people not only bought them but took extra special care of them. Almost as if they were never distributed. More empirical data to be suspicious of.

Yep...

 

And yet, Kirby's Jimmy Olsen almost sold as well as the Amazing Spider-man during his run....

From August of 1970 until December of 1971...

Up against Lee's Amazing Spider-man #90 to #106 (the Death of Captain. Stacy - the 3 Drug Issues - Issue #100 - and the First appearance of Morbius)...

AND up against Batman #226 to #239 (#227, one of the most sought after covers on Batman EVER, Ra's Al Ghul's FIRST appearance, a classic #232 issue! 12 Neal Adams covers, plus 'Silent Night, Deadly Night!')

 

went toe to toe with ASM (307,550 to 299,810)

and BEAT Batman (299,810 to 293,384)

 

Kirby's IMPACT may need to be reevaluated... the numbers say he did pretty damn good compared to two heavy hitters. 

[shadroch]

On 9/21/2023 at 11:49 AM, gunsmokin said:

there are hundreds of high grade copies of all the early 4th world books on the cgc census. Seems a lot of people not only bought them but took extra special care of them. Almost as if they were never distributed. More empirical data to be suspicious of.

It could be, but comic collectors are more likely to buy extra copies because a first edition FF was $50 or more. I think the same speculators who hoarded the 1968 Marvels would have jumped on Kirbys first issues. 

I think the powers at DC recognized Kirby's vision as great, but his execution wasn't.  I loved The Return of The New Gods when it was printed, although it didn't hold up well.  In the 1980s, DC put out a mini-series that reprinted some of his stuff and lead up to The Hunger Dogs. I thought the HD was spectacular to look at, but very difficult to read.

[shadroch]

On 9/21/2023 at 12:55 PM, Prince Namor said:

Great point.

That and the fact that they didn't give them time to be fleshed out. If Thor was ended after 14 issues, it wouldn't be much remembered at all. Same as the Fantastic Four. It was later that we got to see behind the characters motivations with Doom and Sub-Mariner... and there'd be no Silver Surfer, Galactus, Black Panther, Inhumans, etc.

I don't believe Houseroy when he says that - he's as big a liar as Lee was.

The truth is... Houseroy, same as Lee, got a benefit to keeping titles in print - they got PAID to let the artist do the writing. I'd suspect that if Infantino was getting the full writers pay for all of the Fourth World books, he'd have fought tooth and nail to keep them in print.

Which also tells us just how bad the numbers had to be for the Silver Surfer to get cancelled...

Add to that the cheaper paper that DC was using and lack of the 'Stan Goldberg' style of color, a lot of those DC covers just didn't pop the way the Marvel covers did. It wasn't that the art wasn't as good - in many ways DC had great cover art - it just wasn't accentuated the way Marvel covers were.

PLUS he had that Stan Lee's pimp Vince Colletta inking his Jimmy Olsen books. Ugh!

Yep...

 

And yet, Kirby's Jimmy Olsen almost sold as well as the Amazing Spider-man during his run....

From August of 1970 until December of 1971...

Up against Lee's Amazing Spider-man #90 to #106 (the Death of Captain. Stacy - the 3 Drug Issues - Issue #100 - and the First appearance of Morbius)...

AND up against Batman #226 to #239 (#227, one of the most sought after covers on Batman EVER, Ra's Al Ghul's FIRST appearance, a classic #232 issue! 12 Neal Adams covers, plus 'Silent Night, Deadly Night!')

 

went toe to toe with ASM (307,550 to 299,810)

and BEAT Batman (299,810 to 293,384)

 

Kirby's IMPACT may need to be reevaluated... the numbers say he did pretty damn good compared to two heavy hitters. 

I notice you keep comparing Jimmy Olsen to Spiderman, which is meaningless.  Did Jack Kirby's Jimmy Olsen outsell last year's Jimmy Olsen would be all the powers at DC cared about.  Did Kirby sell more books, and did his departure cause Marvel to sell less?  

DC didn't get what they thought they were paying for and didn't renew his contract.  Kirby thought he could deliver Fantastic Four quality books on his own and it turned out he couldn't. I doubt anyone could.  Maybe Kirby should have found his own houseroy. 

 

[Prince Namor]

No, Kirby delivered what Kirby always delivered - great stories.

Stan Lee fans had trouble understanding it because there was no one to walk them through the artwork and explain what was going on. 

Those of us who understand the basics of sequential art followed it just fine.

If DC would've left Kirby alone, it would've grown into something great.

Even so, some of Kirby's best work was here  - New Gods #6 - The Glory Boat, New Gods #7 - The Pact, Mister Miracle #8, The Battle of the ID... Mister Miracle #6 of course with Funky Flashman, New Gods #1, what a great book... 

Stan Lee always dumbed down Kirby's ideas for his readers, who'd whine and complain when something went over their heads. Case in point - 'Him' was about Scientists creating the perfect genetic life form, only to have that life form turn on them because of THEIR imperfection at doing such a thing - Stan dumbed it down to 'evil scientists taking over the world'. Yawn.

Stan had motivation to let Kirby keep going - HE got PAID for the writing that Kirby was doing. The first numbers we ever see for the Fantastic Four is 329,379 in 1966. For 1966, those are AVERAGE sales - its #19 on the list that doesn't even list all the books. Metal men was selling just under 400,000.

But no WAY was Stan going to cancel that book (or Thor at 296,251). HE got PAID for the writing that Kirby was doing.  

He could play golf in his office, stare at women on the street with his binoculars, stop by Vince Colletta's afternoon delight apartment... on the two or three days he was actually at the office.

I'd suspect that if Infantino was getting the full writers pay for all of the Fourth World books, he'd have fought tooth and nail to keep them in print. Suddenly the numbers wouldn't look so bad. 

If Kirby was guilty of anything, it's thinking he didn't have to bow down and pay the penance to the editors.

 

Kirby's Jimmy Olsen sold as well as Batman and Spider-man! Amazing!

[Prince Namor]

That great issue of Amazing Spider-man is getting overlooked in all this talk of how Kirby's Jimmy Olsen competed with Batman and Spider-man.

They used some of Ditko's fight scene ideas in the Amazing Spider-man cartoon a few years later:

 

 

[shadroch]

Where is Danny Kaye when you need him.

"Those of us who understand the basics of sequential art followed it just fine."

Only those with the finest breeding can admire the Emperor's new clothes. 

Just to clarify something, did you buy these books off newsstands when they were released?

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/21/2023 at 5:26 PM, Prince Namor said:

That great issue of Amazing Spider-man is getting overlooked in all this talk of how Kirby's Jimmy Olsen competed with Batman and Spider-man.

They used some of Ditko's fight scene ideas in the Amazing Spider-man cartoon a few years later:

 

 

Stan and Steve are beginning to fire on all cylinders, that's for sure! I think Stan is finally finding a balance between his usual jokey dialogue and a more serious tone when Steve's artwork demands it. Peter P. was downright nasty to Betty on page 5!

[Prince Namor]

In 1969 Kirby's numbers on the Fantastic Four were 340,363

His numbers on Thor were 266,368

That averages out to about 303,000

Right about what he brought to Jimmy Olsen - 299,810

Good enough to compete with Batman and Spider-man

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/22/2023 at 5:51 AM, jimjum12 said:

It's like the Mile High 2 collection, which was claimed to be unsold AND unreturned....

Chuck Rozanski made no bones about his Mile High 2 collection being the result of affidavit fraud.

"One group of items I had kept from my 1978 purchase of Richard Alf's mail order comics business was a stack of carton labels that Alf had torn off of some unopened boxes of bulk books that he had purchased from a certain East Coast wholesale back issue comics supplier. This bulk dealer was so brazen about selling affidavit returns that he never even bothered to remove the original distributor shipping labels off of the unopened cartons of mint comics that he was dumping into the back issue market. Alf felt sure that these labels would be of great interest to the publishers."

"I had a discussion with my good friend, Michael Hobson. Michael was then the Vice President of Publishing at Marvel. I explained the situation to him, pointing out that nearly half of the comics had originally come from Marvel, and that Marvel thus had the greatest potential legal claim to these books. I offered, if he wanted, to give him all the details on the warehouse. For all I knew, he might want to follow some course of legal action against the owners. To my surprise, Michael told me to go ahead and buy the deal if I wanted. He stated that as far as Marvel was concerned, there was no reasonable basis to pursue any legal remedies, if for no other reason than the fact that all the material was at least six years old, and that he believed that the contractual statute of limitations had run out. As far as he/Marvel was concerned, there was no point in me not buying the books, since someone was going to be buying them in any event."

https://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg70.html

Edited September 22, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[jimjum12]

On 9/21/2023 at 10:16 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Chuck Rozanski made no bones about his Mile High 2 collection being the result of affidavit fraud.

"One group of items I had kept from my 1978 purchase of Richard Alf's mail order comics business was a stack of carton labels that Alf had torn off of some unopened boxes of bulk books that he had purchased from a certain East Coast wholesale back issue comics supplier. This bulk dealer was so brazen about selling affidavit returns that he never even bothered to remove the original distributor shipping labels off of the unopened cartons of mint comics that he was dumping into the back issue market. Alf felt sure that these labels would be of great interest to the publishers."

"I had a discussion with my good friend, Michael Hobson. Michael was then the Vice President of Publishing at Marvel. I explained the situation to him, pointing out that nearly half of the comics had originally come from Marvel, and that Marvel thus had the greatest potential legal claim to these books. I offered, if he wanted, to give him all the details on the warehouse. For all I knew, he might want to follow some course of legal action against the owners. To my surprise, Michael told me to go ahead and buy the deal if I wanted. He stated that as far as Marvel was concerned, there was no reasonable basis to pursue any legal remedies, if for no other reason than the fact that all the material was at least six years old, and that he believed that the contractual statute of limitations had run out. As far as he/Marvel was concerned, there was no point in me not buying the books, since someone was going to be buying them in any event."

https://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg70.html

I remember reading in Chuck's blog, "Tales From The Data Base", that the Mile High 2 warehouse had more to it and that the earlier part of the inventory from the early 60's into the 50's had already been sold before Chuck entered the picture. Anyway, my main point was that likely no one was paid much, if anything, for these, in fact they cost money to keep. There wasn't much of a direct market in the early 70's, that arrived in the mid 70's, so there really weren't any dealers to buy them off the back of trucks, except, maybe, for a few trailblazers like Beerbohm. I doubt those guys were buying off the back of trucks. Comics were a pain in the arse for most typical retailers, small profits and kid magnets(who didn't spend much anyway and stole stuff.). 

  With the "creative book keeping" going on back then, I wouldn't be surprised if someone juggled some numbers around to make it look like J.O. sold, people's jobs were on the line depending on how the Kirby decision played out. I mean, who was buying them?... no one that most of us knew. Maybe they were sold to Space Aliens and ended up on Alpha Centauri. Any high grade examples were almost surely leftovers that someone never sold.GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by jimjum12