Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[shadroch]

On 9/10/2023 at 12:20 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

I really enjoyed this when I saw it in a mid-1970s reprint (an issue of Giant-Size Defenders, perhaps). 

I wonder if the scoffing spectators was Stan's idea or Steve's? Their skepticism contrasts nicely with the life-and-death mystic battle going on inside the house.

As the theme of these threads amounts to anything Stan did sucks, and anything Jack or Steve did rivals Hemingway, I suppose it comes down to if you think it works or not. 

I remember liking these stories when I first read them in the early 1980s, but never collected the run. I've had multiple 101s, 107s, 110, 115 and 120s, but never liked the Shield issues.

I used to think 107 was a real sleeper, but it seems to have been discovered.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/10/2023 at 6:54 PM, Prince Namor said:

Giant Size Defenders #3!

That's pretty consistent with Stan over most of the books, it seems. 

Thanks--that was the one with Daredevil losing the coin flip for the future of the earth?

[Prince Namor]

On 9/11/2023 at 10:59 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Thanks--that was the one with Daredevil losing the coin flip for the future of the earth?

Yep

[Prince Namor]

@lordbyroncomics

Another great article, asking pertinent questions and finding answers to put the pieces together...

Busting Two of the Three Top Myths of Stan Lee

There are many myths about Stan Lee and his origins, perpetuated and regurgitated to the point of nauseum. Today we’re just going to tackle two of the top three of those myths that anyone reading this site is surely familiar with, for a specific and very important purpose. 

In an earlier article I pointed out how flimsy Lee’s reasons and excuses had been throughout the years in regard to him being “too busy” to write full scripts (therefore necessitating the creation of the Marvel Method system) as well as the crux of the entirebig bang of Marvel Comics as we know it today: that Lee was going to quit before being urged by his wife to do it his way. 

This is all utter nonsense and easily exposed as throwaway answers to journalists too enamored, too taken in by the grandiose and pleasing tall tale to really look closer, dig deeper, and recognize that the truth was lying there all along, and in plain sight.

Stan Lee was not too busy. Ever. He was going into the offices only three days a week- later two– and literally handled no administrative or managerial duties in his role. 

Stan Lee was never going to quit. Ever. He had attempted several times to get out of his relative Martin Goodman’s comic division and branch out on his own; each and every time was a failure. He had an expensive lifestyle that was enabled by his cushy position and the security that being related to the owner all but guaranteed.

We’re going to examine the facts behind Stan Lee’s trajectory and see, once and for all, that the repeated claims of Lee and Marvel simply cannot hold up in the face of overwhelming evidence. 

What has genuinely amazed me several times over the years if how several outspoken advocates and defenders of Lee often unintentionally make the case against him. Whether it’s Jim Shooter revealing that he plotted Lee’s Silver Surfer stories from the Sixties or Jim Salicrup admitting he impersonated Lee’s voice for an exclusive web series advertised as Lee himself- these guys frequently just shine the light more and more on how little Lee contributed, and how much Lee took credit for doing absolutely no work at all outside of lending his name and likeness.

In 2017, researcher Ger Apeldoorn wrote an exhaustive and comprehensive article chronicling Lee’s fruitless attempts to make something on his own and break away from Goodman. That article, titled “Get Me Out of Here!” appeared in the January 2018 issue of Alter Ego magazine, which was dedicated to Lee’s 95th Birthday. 

I know that Apeldoorn is a respected historian and I agree that it’s somewhat deserved; he doesn’t speculate and position his guesswork as gospel; Michael J Vassallo, whom I hold in high regard, considers him a friend. And yet, Apeldoorn joins the ranks of unintentional exposers of the Lee myth in this article which I will therefore quote extensively from, which I guess makes me a bit like Lee: someone else did the heavy lifting so that I don’t have to. Thanks Ger.

• Pg. 21– “So it’s no surprise that, over at Goodman’s, editor Stan Lee was looking for ways to get out of this ghetto…”

Apeldoorn establishes the dreary era the comic book industry is in during the mid-Fifties before we get to that telling sentence quoted above. Due to the rise of the Comics Code, many publishers have closed outright so the tone of the article is to set the motivation for Lee’s attempts to break away and stand on his own two feet.

• Pg. 21– “Jaffee: I remember all the efforts Stan Lee made to spread his talents into media outside of comic magazines…”

Apeldoorn also points out that, unlike Lee, Al Jaffee succeeded in selling his strip Tall Tales to the Herald Tribune Syndicate where it ran on weekdays and Sundays for five years. I find that significant as it suggests (to me) that it was also simply a matter of talent, perhaps- I don’t mean that to be mean-spirited. Jaffee’s experience might have been due to circumstance, but his is proof that the comic strip market wasn’t completely barren in the Fifties.

• Pg. 21– “To sell his newspaper strip ideas, Stan Lee first persuaded Martin Goodman to create a separate division of his Magazine Enterprises, in order to exploit the talent and material available to the company through the comics division….”

I found this stunning to learn: essentially, Lee convinced Goodman to set up another division entirely just to help Lee out. Did Goodman know Lee’s intention was to leave his employ? Or… does this suggest that the legends about Lee leaving were just that? Lee was never going to quit working for Goodman- but that wasn’t stopping him from trying to create further success for himself using Goodman’s resources.

• Pg. 21– “And, to sell those, he looked up comic strip agent Toni Mendez.”

• Pg. 22– “When Stan Lee contacted her in 1956… she already had an impressive client list, which included Steve Canyon artist Milton Canniff.”

• Pg. 22– “Although the personal collection of Stan Lee himself is at Wyoming University and many of the rarities there were covered by Danny Fingeroth and Roy Thomas in their 2011 TwoMorrows volume The Stan Lee Universe, the correspondence and samples in the Toni Mendez Collection often show a completely different and sometimes more desperate view of Lee’s efforts to find something better to do with his life than write and edit comic books all day.”

I don’t find it surprising that Fingeroth and Thomas decided not to include the correspondence with Mendez. Mendez was a very impressive lady that had started out as a Rockette and worked as an agent well into her nineties; most notably she ended up in a lawsuit with Lee due to his shady business practices, much like others would with POW! Entertainment over five decades later. She was not someone especially taken with Stan Lee as their creative relationship evolved.

• Pg. 22– “It seems the first strip he tried to sell was a soap-opera concept called Clay Murdock, V.P., with art by Vince Colletta…”

• Pg. 22– “Unfortunately, they did not think the theme of the proposed strip fit into the Sun-Times program.”

• Pg. 22– “Next, Mendez sent the proposal to Harold Anderson of Publishers Syndicate. Anderson was less enthusiastic.”

• Pg. 22– “And indeed, Saunders didn’t like the strip as it was…”

• Pg. 23– “On December 26, 1956, Clay Murdock was sent again, But it was to no avail. They replied quickly and shortly that the strip did not “fit into our picture.” After one more try, to the Chicago Tribune-New York News Syndicate, the idea was dropped.”

A pattern is developed of consistent rejections. Apeldoorn displays why he’s a flawed historian when he jovially theorizes how interesting it would have been had Lee develop a connection between Clay Murdock and Daredevil years later, sigh.

I’d like to also point out that rejections during this time period do not necessarily mean that Lee is at fault or without the required talent to write a gag strip; surely the syndicates and industry of the time was fraught with tension and indecision. But it’s again another sign of how unremarkable Lee’s career was both pre and post Kirby.

• Pg. 24– “In Toni Mendez’s correspondence we can follow the rise and fall of Stan Lee’s first outing as a newspaper strip creator.”

• Pg. 24– “Accompanying that letter was a long and detailed critique by George Frickel of the Cub Scouting Services; the letter was addressed to his offices at Timely, indicating that all of these extracurricular activities were done through or with the help of Martin Goodman’s Magazine Enterprises, even though none of the later contracts describes any sort of payment to anyone but the writer and artist.”

Keep in mind I’m providing excerpts of the overall article; we learn how many syndicate heads and managers simply dislike Lee’s pitches and submissions. Lee hatches the idea to do a cub scouts related strip which will be a source of various ups and downs- I also found it telling that Lee continues to use Goodman’s support and resources but takes all of the expected rewards. Contrast that with Lee betraying the Goodman family a little under two decades after this period.

• Pg. 26– “I don’t know if Stan Lee ever got to visit the headquarters of the BSA in New Jersey, but he can’t have been too thrilled that so many people were willing to “give comments.”

• Pg. 26– “Comic historians should note that Lee is listed everywhere as the artist, even though it seems the samples did have a credit for Joe Maneely as well. That is how it went in those days, folks. Most people could not be bothered to see the difference.”

Yes, that’s also how it is today, folks. Especially when it comes to Stan the Man. Apeldoorn shrugs off what is already an early and blatant maneuvering of Lee to come off as the sole talent behind the piece with a “most people could not be bothered” excuse.

• Pg. 27– “As was to be expected, King Features passed…”

• Pg. 27– “He also gave his telephone number at Magazine Enterprises, where he could be called any weekday except Wednesdays and weekends, when he was at home. Apparently, even back in the ’50s, Stan held one day a week aside to write his scripts…”

We’ll discuss the cushy work week schedule of Lee later on.

• Pg. 27– “Even before the contracts were signed, Sun-Times representatives shopped the new strip around. The first reactions weren’t encouraging.”

• Pg. 27– “The second (representative) was so down on the project that he needed a private peptalk. Smith’s main problem seemed to be that he couldn’t sell the strip because it wasn’t really clear at whom it was aimed.”

• Pg. 28– “Still, the Chicago Sun-Times was committed, and the launch was on its way. Too bad neither the Philadelphia Bulletin nor the Philadelphia Daily News liked the strip.”

Lee gets his cub scout strip into the Chicago Sun-Times at least. There’s also a fantastic letter in Mendez’s archives that Lee wrote, asking her for help with getting the Sun-Times to compensate him for travel expenses when he and Maneely travelled to Chicago to meet with representatives, and I’m amazed at how cheap Lee is:

“Finally, I’d appreciate your mentioning the cost of the plane tix to Chicago for Joe and myself. They totaled $195.20! Insamuch as Joe is kinda broke, I footed the entire bill. Now, if we are EXPECTED to pay for it, ok- I’ll say no more about it. But it seems to me that since Bob ASKED us to come- and he told me, when we left, that he was grateful that we came because it saved HIM the trouble of flying to New York- I’d imagine it’s reasonably fair to assume the Syndicate would pay for the flight. I’d like to know definitively, because if they DON’T pay for it, I wouldn’t be so anxious to oblige in the future! Thanx.” – Stan Lee “Expenses” letter to Toni Mendez, January 7th, 1958

You’ve got to love how Lee stresses that Joe Maneely is just too broke, so loyal ol’ Stan has to do him a solid and buy his ticket. It’s amazing to me just how much Lee wanted to break into the comic strip market, just to complain about travel expenses for a necessary business meeting when a syndicate finally accepted the strip!

• Pg. 30– “Stan was collecting all the positive letters he could find and sending them on to the syndicate through Mendez. Even though the name of the letter-writers may sound a little bit familiar to us.”

Got to respect the hustle as Lee provides obviously faked letters of support from Artie Simek’s daughter and comic artist Peter Morisi.

• Pg. 31– “Around that same time, Stan had a new idea. Unsatisfied with the progress Bringen was making, he apparently had his wife call Boy Scout Council leaders; and, in a letter to Robert Cooper, he asserted it was her idea (which it may or may not have been.)”

• Pg. 31– “Altho’ the Scouts themselves feel they can’t make such phone calls to local councils, there’s no reason JOAN can’t do it!”

Joan Lee then proceeds to call and write numerous council leaders in New York, Philadelphia, Boston and other markets.

• Pg. 33– “On November 12, 1958 the axe fell. “Effective with the daily release of December 27th and the Sunday release of December 21, we will discontinue Mrs. Lyons’ Cubs.”

• Pg. 34– “A year later, Toni Mendez would have her own financial problems with Stan Lee, and that time she would not be so accommodating.”

Apeldoorn then covers numerous other pitches that Lee apparently conceived of but were all met with rejection: For the Love of Linda, Art -script, Captions Courageous, Li’l Repute, and many more that I’m sick of transcribing. Most of these are simply Lee adding dialogue to existing photographs in the fumetti style, or soap opera strips. Interestingly, no unique characters are pitched by Lee like the ones he’d later claim to create a few years later. 

But still- the sheer number of outright rejections are staggering. When you tally them up, it’s apparent that Lee was never going to be able to quit Goodman’s company. Where would he go? What skills, what prospects did he really have?

• Pg. 39– “His answer (when the package was returned on May 6) was a decidedly unchuckling “I am sorry, but I think this is simply not for us.”

• Pg. 39– “On May 15 it was sent to the Grayson Publishing Corporation. They must have declined within a week…”

• Pg. 42– “The response was mixed, as usual. King Features rejected it outright…”

• Pg. 49– “But it was all for nothing. In early 1961 the curtain fell for Willie Lumpkin.”

Yes, Lee doesn’t lack in ambition but he’s lacking in a spark of some sort. Luckily for him, Jack Kirby could generate more than enough for an entire company. 

But the pattern is established. And allow me to clarify, these excerpts I’ve cited are by no means all of the failures of Lee that Apeldoorn covers. There are so many more that it’s tiring. Coloring books, humor mags, you name it- he also covers Lee’s attempts at self-publishing, which ties into the next myth, much to my surprise. The point of presenting this? Stan Lee was extremely unlikely to quit. All of his attempts- even with Goodman’s support- failed.

Sol Brodsky was the man who was “too busy.” All of the things that reporters likely subconsciously processed and assumed on when Lee would explain he couldn’t write full scripts due to his various and demanding responsibilities are literally what Sol Brodsky actually did do at Marvel. 

As Production Manager, it was Brodsky that handled pay vouchers for the freelance artists. It was Brodsky that dealt with the printers, that handled scheduling, and so forth. So why don’t more people talk about Sol Brodsky?

Brodsky had started out working for Fox Features and Archie Comics in the Forties before finally landing at Timely and working for Goodman around 1948. As Brodsky came up in the industry apprenticing in various departments, he was well versed in all components of comic book production, becoming invaluable to Lee. Remember how I said that Lee’s attempts to self-publish tied into this next part? I was surprised to read the following:

• “Stan was publishing a number of magazines, among them GOLFER’S ANONYMOUS, BLUSHING BLURBS, THE EXECUTIVE’S ABC DOODLE BOOK and THE SECRETS BEHIND THE COMICS, some of which were sold by mail order. Stan knew of no better man to put in charge of production of these books than Sol Brodsky.” – Marvel Age Magazine #22, 1984

I was flabbergasted to discover that even with those attempts at doing it for himself, Lee relied on others to do the heavy lifting.

Consider how busy Stan Lee really was. He’s already not going to the office five days a week, as illustrated by this exchange from a notable (and sometimes leading) interview with Roy Thomas from 1998:

Roy: “When I came aboard in mid-’65, you were coming into the office only two or three days a week. Was it because it was getting too busy?”

Stan: “That’s a little bit of a story: A few years before that, I was doing so much writing and I couldn’t finish it in the office, so I said to Martin, “I have to have one day a week off to get my writing done.” So he said okay, and I took Wednesday off because it was right in the middle of the week and it broke it off into two two-day weeks.

Then, as I got more and more into writing, I said to Joan, “I’m gonna ask him for another day off.” She said, “You can’t do that! How can you have the nerve to ask for two days a week off and he’s paying you a weekly salary?” Hey, the only thing he can do is say no. So I asked him, and he must have had a good golf game that day, and he said okay. I took off Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Then I still seemed to feel that I had too much writing to do, so I said to Joan, “I’m going to ask him if I can take Monday, Wednesday, and Friday off!” She said, “Stan, I’m going to head for the hills! Nobody can ask for something like that!” I said, “Hey, what can I lose?” And he actually said okay! So there was a time when I came in Tuesdays and Thursdays.” – Stan ‘Too Busy’ Lee, coming in two days a week

It’s because Jack Kirby produced completed stories for Lee to dialogue on- often based on Kirby’s helpful margin notes- that Lee excelled during this period. But it’s also because Sol Brodsky enabled Lee to do that by basically doing what Lee is always creditedas doing: basically running the Marvel Bullpen.

• “Sol and I were the whole staff of Atlas Comics. I bought the art and scripts, and Sol did all the production. My job was mainly talking to the artists and writers and telling them how I wanted the stuff done. Sol did everything else- the corrections, making sure everything looked right, making sure things went to the engraver and he also talked to the printer. He was really the production manager.” – Stan Lee

• “Sol had this rare ability to come in to a department and quickly learn how to run everything. It was an extra thing he had. He had to deal with creative people, printers and later on, corporate heads and outside clients. And he did it well.” – Stan Goldberg

• “When Sol came on, he took over all the traffic responsibilities and dealing with the printers. Stan and Sol would discuss who would get what art assignments. They would all go into Stan’s office and discuss the plots and act them out… Sol was really important because he really set the tone for the place.”– Flo Steinberg

I was impressed to discover, per a recollection from Giordano, that when the Atlas implosion initially happened, Brodsky took it upon himself to work as an unpaid agent of sorts for artists like Gene Colan and others, facilitating work at Charlton and other surviving publishers. Contrast that with Lee having his secretary contact freelancers to inform them that production was suspended, only to contact them years later when he needed them. 

• “The job of the Production Manager then was everything that didn’t have to do with editing. I handled the editing and the art direction, and Sol did everything else.”– Stan Lee (emphasis Stan’s)

• “I remember Sol was a man Stan could trust to do the job. Sol was the Production Manager and his job was to make sure the comics got out on time. And he did.” – Roy Thomas

• “It was interesting. Stan was Sol’s superior, and yet, when the schedule dictated it, Sol would go to Stan and say, ‘This has to be done by tomorrow morning’ or ‘This has to be done by Monday morning.’– John Romita Sr.

• “And, as Production Manager, who handled all the vouchers back then…” – Roy Thomas

• “Sol was the one you dealt with most. If you had troubles, he’d try to help. If there was a voucher problem or if you were short of money, and the company could find a way out of the problem for you, Sol was the guy who could do it…” – John Romita Sr.

Now, I recognize that it might seem as if I’m padding this article out with quotes, real frantic ones. But that’s not my intention. I genuinely just want to present the caseagainst Stan Lee either being in a position to quit, or being too busy to really write scripts.

You’ve seen excerpts of multiple rejections. You’ve seen proof that Sol Brodsky did the actual managerial/administrative duties at Marvel. You’ve seen Lee’s own account of how he finangled a mere two day work week from his employer. 

So, you tell me. Was Stan Lee really going to quit in 1961? (and, if so, to go where? to do what?) Was Stan Lee really too busy to write? Or is it that the general consensus is based upon, relies upon the collective tapestry of the public subconscious, itself informed by hearsay and partial knowledge? Only fragments of history, said in passing, fueling the shared exchange of popular stories and pleasant illusions.

A figurehead, especially one that is beloved, can be difficult to remove. But protecting that figurehead out of misplaced sentimentalism only serves to unjustly deny proper credit to those that actually toiled in the fields and got their hands dirty. 

The evidence has always been there. Put it together and it tells the truth, no matter how uncomforting that truth has always been.

 

 

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 9/12/2023 at 4:04 PM, Prince Namor said:

@lordbyroncomics

Another great article, asking pertinent questions and finding answers to put the pieces together...

Busting Two of the Three Top Myths of Stan Lee

There are many myths about Stan Lee and his origins, perpetuated and regurgitated to the point of nauseum. Today we’re just going to tackle two of the top three of those myths that anyone reading this site is surely familiar with, for a specific and very important purpose. 

In an earlier article I pointed out how flimsy Lee’s reasons and excuses had been throughout the years in regard to him being “too busy” to write full scripts (therefore necessitating the creation of the Marvel Method system) as well as the crux of the entirebig bang of Marvel Comics as we know it today: that Lee was going to quit before being urged by his wife to do it his way. 

This is all utter nonsense and easily exposed as throwaway answers to journalists too enamored, too taken in by the grandiose and pleasing tall tale to really look closer, dig deeper, and recognize that the truth was lying there all along, and in plain sight.

Stan Lee was not too busy. Ever. He was going into the offices only three days a week- later two– and literally handled no administrative or managerial duties in his role. 

Stan Lee was never going to quit. Ever. He had attempted several times to get out of his relative Martin Goodman’s comic division and branch out on his own; each and every time was a failure. He had an expensive lifestyle that was enabled by his cushy position and the security that being related to the owner all but guaranteed.

We’re going to examine the facts behind Stan Lee’s trajectory and see, once and for all, that the repeated claims of Lee and Marvel simply cannot hold up in the face of overwhelming evidence. 

What has genuinely amazed me several times over the years if how several outspoken advocates and defenders of Lee often unintentionally make the case against him. Whether it’s Jim Shooter revealing that he plotted Lee’s Silver Surfer stories from the Sixties or Jim Salicrup admitting he impersonated Lee’s voice for an exclusive web series advertised as Lee himself- these guys frequently just shine the light more and more on how little Lee contributed, and how much Lee took credit for doing absolutely no work at all outside of lending his name and likeness.

In 2017, researcher Ger Apeldoorn wrote an exhaustive and comprehensive article chronicling Lee’s fruitless attempts to make something on his own and break away from Goodman. That article, titled “Get Me Out of Here!” appeared in the January 2018 issue of Alter Ego magazine, which was dedicated to Lee’s 95th Birthday. 

I know that Apeldoorn is a respected historian and I agree that it’s somewhat deserved; he doesn’t speculate and position his guesswork as gospel; Michael J Vassallo, whom I hold in high regard, considers him a friend. And yet, Apeldoorn joins the ranks of unintentional exposers of the Lee myth in this article which I will therefore quote extensively from, which I guess makes me a bit like Lee: someone else did the heavy lifting so that I don’t have to. Thanks Ger.

• Pg. 21– “So it’s no surprise that, over at Goodman’s, editor Stan Lee was looking for ways to get out of this ghetto…”

Apeldoorn establishes the dreary era the comic book industry is in during the mid-Fifties before we get to that telling sentence quoted above. Due to the rise of the Comics Code, many publishers have closed outright so the tone of the article is to set the motivation for Lee’s attempts to break away and stand on his own two feet.

• Pg. 21– “Jaffee: I remember all the efforts Stan Lee made to spread his talents into media outside of comic magazines…”

Apeldoorn also points out that, unlike Lee, Al Jaffee succeeded in selling his strip Tall Tales to the Herald Tribune Syndicate where it ran on weekdays and Sundays for five years. I find that significant as it suggests (to me) that it was also simply a matter of talent, perhaps- I don’t mean that to be mean-spirited. Jaffee’s experience might have been due to circumstance, but his is proof that the comic strip market wasn’t completely barren in the Fifties.

• Pg. 21– “To sell his newspaper strip ideas, Stan Lee first persuaded Martin Goodman to create a separate division of his Magazine Enterprises, in order to exploit the talent and material available to the company through the comics division….”

I found this stunning to learn: essentially, Lee convinced Goodman to set up another division entirely just to help Lee out. Did Goodman know Lee’s intention was to leave his employ? Or… does this suggest that the legends about Lee leaving were just that? Lee was never going to quit working for Goodman- but that wasn’t stopping him from trying to create further success for himself using Goodman’s resources.

• Pg. 21– “And, to sell those, he looked up comic strip agent Toni Mendez.”

• Pg. 22– “When Stan Lee contacted her in 1956… she already had an impressive client list, which included Steve Canyon artist Milton Canniff.”

• Pg. 22– “Although the personal collection of Stan Lee himself is at Wyoming University and many of the rarities there were covered by Danny Fingeroth and Roy Thomas in their 2011 TwoMorrows volume The Stan Lee Universe, the correspondence and samples in the Toni Mendez Collection often show a completely different and sometimes more desperate view of Lee’s efforts to find something better to do with his life than write and edit comic books all day.”

I don’t find it surprising that Fingeroth and Thomas decided not to include the correspondence with Mendez. Mendez was a very impressive lady that had started out as a Rockette and worked as an agent well into her nineties; most notably she ended up in a lawsuit with Lee due to his shady business practices, much like others would with POW! Entertainment over five decades later. She was not someone especially taken with Stan Lee as their creative relationship evolved.

• Pg. 22– “It seems the first strip he tried to sell was a soap-opera concept called Clay Murdock, V.P., with art by Vince Colletta…”

• Pg. 22– “Unfortunately, they did not think the theme of the proposed strip fit into the Sun-Times program.”

• Pg. 22– “Next, Mendez sent the proposal to Harold Anderson of Publishers Syndicate. Anderson was less enthusiastic.”

• Pg. 22– “And indeed, Saunders didn’t like the strip as it was…”

• Pg. 23– “On December 26, 1956, Clay Murdock was sent again, But it was to no avail. They replied quickly and shortly that the strip did not “fit into our picture.” After one more try, to the Chicago Tribune-New York News Syndicate, the idea was dropped.”

A pattern is developed of consistent rejections. Apeldoorn displays why he’s a flawed historian when he jovially theorizes how interesting it would have been had Lee develop a connection between Clay Murdock and Daredevil years later, sigh.

I’d like to also point out that rejections during this time period do not necessarily mean that Lee is at fault or without the required talent to write a gag strip; surely the syndicates and industry of the time was fraught with tension and indecision. But it’s again another sign of how unremarkable Lee’s career was both pre and post Kirby.

• Pg. 24– “In Toni Mendez’s correspondence we can follow the rise and fall of Stan Lee’s first outing as a newspaper strip creator.”

• Pg. 24– “Accompanying that letter was a long and detailed critique by George Frickel of the Cub Scouting Services; the letter was addressed to his offices at Timely, indicating that all of these extracurricular activities were done through or with the help of Martin Goodman’s Magazine Enterprises, even though none of the later contracts describes any sort of payment to anyone but the writer and artist.”

Keep in mind I’m providing excerpts of the overall article; we learn how many syndicate heads and managers simply dislike Lee’s pitches and submissions. Lee hatches the idea to do a cub scouts related strip which will be a source of various ups and downs- I also found it telling that Lee continues to use Goodman’s support and resources but takes all of the expected rewards. Contrast that with Lee betraying the Goodman family a little under two decades after this period.

• Pg. 26– “I don’t know if Stan Lee ever got to visit the headquarters of the BSA in New Jersey, but he can’t have been too thrilled that so many people were willing to “give comments.”

• Pg. 26– “Comic historians should note that Lee is listed everywhere as the artist, even though it seems the samples did have a credit for Joe Maneely as well. That is how it went in those days, folks. Most people could not be bothered to see the difference.”

Yes, that’s also how it is today, folks. Especially when it comes to Stan the Man. Apeldoorn shrugs off what is already an early and blatant maneuvering of Lee to come off as the sole talent behind the piece with a “most people could not be bothered” excuse.

• Pg. 27– “As was to be expected, King Features passed…”

• Pg. 27– “He also gave his telephone number at Magazine Enterprises, where he could be called any weekday except Wednesdays and weekends, when he was at home. Apparently, even back in the ’50s, Stan held one day a week aside to write his scripts…”

We’ll discuss the cushy work week schedule of Lee later on.

• Pg. 27– “Even before the contracts were signed, Sun-Times representatives shopped the new strip around. The first reactions weren’t encouraging.”

• Pg. 27– “The second (representative) was so down on the project that he needed a private peptalk. Smith’s main problem seemed to be that he couldn’t sell the strip because it wasn’t really clear at whom it was aimed.”

• Pg. 28– “Still, the Chicago Sun-Times was committed, and the launch was on its way. Too bad neither the Philadelphia Bulletin nor the Philadelphia Daily News liked the strip.”

Lee gets his cub scout strip into the Chicago Sun-Times at least. There’s also a fantastic letter in Mendez’s archives that Lee wrote, asking her for help with getting the Sun-Times to compensate him for travel expenses when he and Maneely travelled to Chicago to meet with representatives, and I’m amazed at how cheap Lee is:

“Finally, I’d appreciate your mentioning the cost of the plane tix to Chicago for Joe and myself. They totaled $195.20! Insamuch as Joe is kinda broke, I footed the entire bill. Now, if we are EXPECTED to pay for it, ok- I’ll say no more about it. But it seems to me that since Bob ASKED us to come- and he told me, when we left, that he was grateful that we came because it saved HIM the trouble of flying to New York- I’d imagine it’s reasonably fair to assume the Syndicate would pay for the flight. I’d like to know definitively, because if they DON’T pay for it, I wouldn’t be so anxious to oblige in the future! Thanx.” – Stan Lee “Expenses” letter to Toni Mendez, January 7th, 1958

You’ve got to love how Lee stresses that Joe Maneely is just too broke, so loyal ol’ Stan has to do him a solid and buy his ticket. It’s amazing to me just how much Lee wanted to break into the comic strip market, just to complain about travel expenses for a necessary business meeting when a syndicate finally accepted the strip!

• Pg. 30– “Stan was collecting all the positive letters he could find and sending them on to the syndicate through Mendez. Even though the name of the letter-writers may sound a little bit familiar to us.”

Got to respect the hustle as Lee provides obviously faked letters of support from Artie Simek’s daughter and comic artist Peter Morisi.

• Pg. 31– “Around that same time, Stan had a new idea. Unsatisfied with the progress Bringen was making, he apparently had his wife call Boy Scout Council leaders; and, in a letter to Robert Cooper, he asserted it was her idea (which it may or may not have been.)”

• Pg. 31– “Altho’ the Scouts themselves feel they can’t make such phone calls to local councils, there’s no reason JOAN can’t do it!”

Joan Lee then proceeds to call and write numerous council leaders in New York, Philadelphia, Boston and other markets.

• Pg. 33– “On November 12, 1958 the axe fell. “Effective with the daily release of December 27th and the Sunday release of December 21, we will discontinue Mrs. Lyons’ Cubs.”

• Pg. 34– “A year later, Toni Mendez would have her own financial problems with Stan Lee, and that time she would not be so accommodating.”

Apeldoorn then covers numerous other pitches that Lee apparently conceived of but were all met with rejection: For the Love of Linda, Art --script, Captions Courageous, Li’l Repute, and many more that I’m sick of transcribing. Most of these are simply Lee adding dialogue to existing photographs in the fumetti style, or soap opera strips. Interestingly, no unique characters are pitched by Lee like the ones he’d later claim to create a few years later. 

But still- the sheer number of outright rejections are staggering. When you tally them up, it’s apparent that Lee was never going to be able to quit Goodman’s company. Where would he go? What skills, what prospects did he really have?

• Pg. 39– “His answer (when the package was returned on May 6) was a decidedly unchuckling “I am sorry, but I think this is simply not for us.”

• Pg. 39– “On May 15 it was sent to the Grayson Publishing Corporation. They must have declined within a week…”

• Pg. 42– “The response was mixed, as usual. King Features rejected it outright…”

• Pg. 49– “But it was all for nothing. In early 1961 the curtain fell for Willie Lumpkin.”

Yes, Lee doesn’t lack in ambition but he’s lacking in a spark of some sort. Luckily for him, Jack Kirby could generate more than enough for an entire company. 

But the pattern is established. And allow me to clarify, these excerpts I’ve cited are by no means all of the failures of Lee that Apeldoorn covers. There are so many more that it’s tiring. Coloring books, humor mags, you name it- he also covers Lee’s attempts at self-publishing, which ties into the next myth, much to my surprise. The point of presenting this? Stan Lee was extremely unlikely to quit. All of his attempts- even with Goodman’s support- failed.

Sol Brodsky was the man who was “too busy.” All of the things that reporters likely subconsciously processed and assumed on when Lee would explain he couldn’t write full scripts due to his various and demanding responsibilities are literally what Sol Brodsky actually did do at Marvel. 

As Production Manager, it was Brodsky that handled pay vouchers for the freelance artists. It was Brodsky that dealt with the printers, that handled scheduling, and so forth. So why don’t more people talk about Sol Brodsky?

Brodsky had started out working for Fox Features and Archie Comics in the Forties before finally landing at Timely and working for Goodman around 1948. As Brodsky came up in the industry apprenticing in various departments, he was well versed in all components of comic book production, becoming invaluable to Lee. Remember how I said that Lee’s attempts to self-publish tied into this next part? I was surprised to read the following:

• “Stan was publishing a number of magazines, among them GOLFER’S ANONYMOUS, BLUSHING BLURBS, THE EXECUTIVE’S ABC DOODLE BOOK and THE SECRETS BEHIND THE COMICS, some of which were sold by mail order. Stan knew of no better man to put in charge of production of these books than Sol Brodsky.” – Marvel Age Magazine #22, 1984

I was flabbergasted to discover that even with those attempts at doing it for himself, Lee relied on others to do the heavy lifting.

Consider how busy Stan Lee really was. He’s already not going to the office five days a week, as illustrated by this exchange from a notable (and sometimes leading) interview with Roy Thomas from 1998:

Roy: “When I came aboard in mid-’65, you were coming into the office only two or three days a week. Was it because it was getting too busy?”

Stan: “That’s a little bit of a story: A few years before that, I was doing so much writing and I couldn’t finish it in the office, so I said to Martin, “I have to have one day a week off to get my writing done.” So he said okay, and I took Wednesday off because it was right in the middle of the week and it broke it off into two two-day weeks.

Then, as I got more and more into writing, I said to Joan, “I’m gonna ask him for another day off.” She said, “You can’t do that! How can you have the nerve to ask for two days a week off and he’s paying you a weekly salary?” Hey, the only thing he can do is say no. So I asked him, and he must have had a good golf game that day, and he said okay. I took off Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Then I still seemed to feel that I had too much writing to do, so I said to Joan, “I’m going to ask him if I can take Monday, Wednesday, and Friday off!” She said, “Stan, I’m going to head for the hills! Nobody can ask for something like that!” I said, “Hey, what can I lose?” And he actually said okay! So there was a time when I came in Tuesdays and Thursdays.” – Stan ‘Too Busy’ Lee, coming in two days a week

It’s because Jack Kirby produced completed stories for Lee to dialogue on- often based on Kirby’s helpful margin notes- that Lee excelled during this period. But it’s also because Sol Brodsky enabled Lee to do that by basically doing what Lee is always creditedas doing: basically running the Marvel Bullpen.

• “Sol and I were the whole staff of Atlas Comics. I bought the art and scripts, and Sol did all the production. My job was mainly talking to the artists and writers and telling them how I wanted the stuff done. Sol did everything else- the corrections, making sure everything looked right, making sure things went to the engraver and he also talked to the printer. He was really the production manager.” – Stan Lee

• “Sol had this rare ability to come in to a department and quickly learn how to run everything. It was an extra thing he had. He had to deal with creative people, printers and later on, corporate heads and outside clients. And he did it well.” – Stan Goldberg

• “When Sol came on, he took over all the traffic responsibilities and dealing with the printers. Stan and Sol would discuss who would get what art assignments. They would all go into Stan’s office and discuss the plots and act them out… Sol was really important because he really set the tone for the place.”– Flo Steinberg

I was impressed to discover, per a recollection from Giordano, that when the Atlas implosion initially happened, Brodsky took it upon himself to work as an unpaid agent of sorts for artists like Gene Colan and others, facilitating work at Charlton and other surviving publishers. Contrast that with Lee having his secretary contact freelancers to inform them that production was suspended, only to contact them years later when he needed them. 

• “The job of the Production Manager then was everything that didn’t have to do with editing. I handled the editing and the art direction, and Sol did everything else.”– Stan Lee (emphasis Stan’s)

• “I remember Sol was a man Stan could trust to do the job. Sol was the Production Manager and his job was to make sure the comics got out on time. And he did.” – Roy Thomas

• “It was interesting. Stan was Sol’s superior, and yet, when the schedule dictated it, Sol would go to Stan and say, ‘This has to be done by tomorrow morning’ or ‘This has to be done by Monday morning.’– John Romita Sr.

• “And, as Production Manager, who handled all the vouchers back then…” – Roy Thomas

• “Sol was the one you dealt with most. If you had troubles, he’d try to help. If there was a voucher problem or if you were short of money, and the company could find a way out of the problem for you, Sol was the guy who could do it…” – John Romita Sr.

Now, I recognize that it might seem as if I’m padding this article out with quotes, real frantic ones. But that’s not my intention. I genuinely just want to present the caseagainst Stan Lee either being in a position to quit, or being too busy to really write scripts.

You’ve seen excerpts of multiple rejections. You’ve seen proof that Sol Brodsky did the actual managerial/administrative duties at Marvel. You’ve seen Lee’s own account of how he finangled a mere two day work week from his employer. 

So, you tell me. Was Stan Lee really going to quit in 1961? (and, if so, to go where? to do what?) Was Stan Lee really too busy to write? Or is it that the general consensus is based upon, relies upon the collective tapestry of the public subconscious, itself informed by hearsay and partial knowledge? Only fragments of history, said in passing, fueling the shared exchange of popular stories and pleasant illusions.

A figurehead, especially one that is beloved, can be difficult to remove. But protecting that figurehead out of misplaced sentimentalism only serves to unjustly deny proper credit to those that actually toiled in the fields and got their hands dirty. 

The evidence has always been there. Put it together and it tells the truth, no matter how uncomforting that truth has always been.

 

 

I got it.

Every slam of Stan is the unvarnished truth, even if the slams contradict each other.

Every word of support for Stan is the word of a hack or a liar, or someone who just has it wrong.  Sometimes the people who say good things have also said bad things.  You must disregard all the good things they said and heed only the criticisms.

Of all the possible motives behind every action taken by the people Stan reported to, or those who worked with him, you should presume they did each and every thing because they loathed him. 

Moby cut the leg off Ahab.

I don't know what Stan did to this guy.

But the depths of his obsession is world-class.

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

[Prince Namor]

Interesting timeline of information someone posted in the Timely-Atlas Facebook group by Mark Clegg...

 

1956-03-?? One-time cartoonist Hugh Hefner, a new media mogul with his Playboy magazine, admires Mad, and meets Harvey Kurtzman in New York to express his appreciation. He tells Kurtzman that if he were ever to leave Mad, a place would be waiting for him in the Hefner empire.

1956-04-00 In very early April, even though Harvey Kurtzman offers Al Jaffee $10,000 a year worth of freelance work for Mad (which is selling about 350,000 an issue as a quarterly, if Kurtzman can get it out that often), Jaffee passes because he makes $20,000 working on two books for Atlas. (ME: If Jaffee is doing, roughly 40-46 pages a month on Patsy Walker and Patsy & Hedy, he's getting $36 to $41 a page to write, pencil AND ink... that's LOW.)

1956-04-04(?) With Hugh Hefner’s promise to back him, Harvey Kurtzman demands legal control of Mad from William Gaines in the form of stocks. Reluctant to lose the editor of his sole remaining publication, Gaines offers a 10% share.

1956-04-06 On a “fateful Friday,” Harry Chester, Harvey Kurtzman’s production manager, tells William Gaines that 10% is not the winning number as it will not give Kurtzman the creative control he wants on Mad. Chester tells Gaines that Kurtzman wants 51%. Gaines refuses to give up ownership (“if he had just asked for 49% and not 51%”). He calls Kurtzman at his home, and says “goodbye.” He then calls his attorney, Martin Scheiman, to have him call Kurtzman to confirm the conversation. After the lawyer confirms the conversation the two part ways.

Al Jaffee turns in work (Job Numbers K-250 to K-254) on a full issue of Patsy and Hedy. #45 is due to the CMAA NOW to Stan Lee. Lee tells Al (jokingly?) that he has competition for his job. Jaffe tells him to use the competitor. On Patsy Walker, which he has worked on for a decade or so, he would get an idea, write it out, add quick sketches, feel like he has done the whole thing, and then begin the drudgery of turning that into a finished work, the only motive for doing so is the mortgage. He spends 18 hours a day grinding out the work. He gets home an hour and a half later, and his wife tells him Lee has been calling non-stop. Jaffe calls Lee back and quits, officially. He can’t do it anymore. He then calls Harvey Kurtzman to accept his offer. Kurtzman tells him he has just left Mad, but something is in the wings.

Al Jaffee’s Mad Life. Even though Lee has an issue’s worth of work for Patsy and Heddy by Jaffee in hand, he will shelve it for two months, risking the ire of the CMAA, and have Al Hartley, former artist on Meet Miss Bliss and current artist (and sometimes writer) on Della Vision/Patty Powers, do the next issue (the 1956-06-05 Patsy and Heddy #45), both art and writing (Job Numbers #339, 362, 363, 433, 434). Hartley does the last story for the 1956-05-23 Patty Powers #7 (Job Number #273) and gets to work. Is this what kills the Patty Powers book? 

At Gaines’ home that night, Joe Orlando (who visits the Gaines 3 or 4 nights a week), along with Gaines’ wife Nancy, tells him, as he holds his head and declares he is going back to teaching, to hire Al Feldstein, who had done PANIC, to replace Kurtzman. Gaines says he doesn’t like Feldstein, he comes in early and tries out everything first. Gaines calls the recently fired (on Kurtzman’s insistence) Lyle Stuart, who is vacationing in Florida. Stuart tells Gaines to throw Kurtzman and Chester out the window, and to get Feldstein (who he never liked) back. Gaines will gamble to continue Mad under Feldstein if Wallace Wood remains with the magazine. Wood, on Orlando’s suggestion and loyalty to Gaines, stays with Mad. While doing some work for Atlas, Feldstein has been shopping around a magazine conceived as a showcase for new talent like Lenny Bruce. He has largely been out of work for four months. Gaines meets Feldstein, returning home from a job search, on the platform of the Merrick station of the Long Island Railroad. MAD gets a new editor.

1956-04-09 Al Feldstein is back at EC early Monday morning. He has quit working for Stan Lee at Atlas. Has he done any work on Yellow Claw #2? Probably not as his work on Yellow Claw #1 are Job Numbers K-215, 239, and 260, and the book is due to the CMAA at the end of the week. Roth does a (always planned?) non-Yellow Claw story (Job Number 358) that is used to complete the book, along with a text feature (Job Number K-418) with an illustration by John Severin. Stan Lee probably immediately calls up Jack Kirby (whose recent return to Atlas (Goodman) with Job Number K-282 was facilitated by Frank Giacoia) and offers him the book, starting with the 1956-08-14 Yellow Claw #2 (which will be Job Numbers K-648, 663, 868, and 915). Kirby will do a couple of genre shorts (Job Numbers K-651, 652) before sporadically completing Yellow Claw #2.

Al Feldstein’s first issue will be Mad #29 (September 1956). He takes over with the zeal of a lineman coming off the bench. He is also on his knees praying for artists and writers to help him do this job. John Putnam, the art director and designer of Mad, remains. He joined EC in 1954 as a $75 a week temporary employee, He and Harvey Kurtzman, both intellectual types, always felt uncomfortable working together. <Putnam and Feldstein will become a smooth-running team, allowing Putnam creative touches as long as clarity is maintained.> Feldstein thinks Kurtzman had started in the right direction, but it’s one kind of humor threatened to go off on a tangent. He seeks a more general appeal.

With Harvey Kurtzman gone, Feldstein contacts John Severin to do some work for HIS Mad magazine. Way back on 1954-08-14 (after Mad #10) Severin had sent a letter to Kurtzman and Bill Gaines stating that he had to resign from any book edited by Kurtzman. Unfortunately for Feldstein, Severin has just accepted a staff position with Stan Lee at Atlas (offered because of what led to the departure of Feldstein?). As such, Lee won’t let him work for the competition. Lee has Severin working primarily on western features.  On the other hand, for unknown reasons, Severin has only done four stories on a Feldstein book (Weird Fantasy #18-21). The staff job may not have been necessary to keep him from working for Feldstein. Lee will have Severin ink Kirby on the suddenly late in production Yellow Claw #2. (ME: Correction. Severin does the cover of #2, but doesn't ink interiors until #4 - the last issue. Kirby would ink his own work with the help of his wife Roz for #2 and #3.)

[Mmehdy]

On 9/13/2023 at 1:35 PM, Prince Namor said:

Interesting timeline of information someone posted in the Timely-Atlas Facebook group by Mark Clegg...

 

1956-03-?? One-time cartoonist Hugh Hefner, a new media mogul with his Playboy magazine, admires Mad, and meets Harvey Kurtzman in New York to express his appreciation. He tells Kurtzman that if he were ever to leave Mad, a place would be waiting for him in the Hefner empire.

1956-04-00 In very early April, even though Harvey Kurtzman offers Al Jaffee $10,000 a year worth of freelance work for Mad (which is selling about 350,000 an issue as a quarterly, if Kurtzman can get it out that often), Jaffee passes because he makes $20,000 working on two books for Atlas. (ME: If Jaffee is doing, roughly 40-46 pages a month on Patsy Walker and Patsy & Hedy, he's getting $36 to $41 a page to write, pencil AND ink... that's LOW.)

1956-04-04(?) With Hugh Hefner’s promise to back him, Harvey Kurtzman demands legal control of Mad from William Gaines in the form of stocks. Reluctant to lose the editor of his sole remaining publication, Gaines offers a 10% share.

1956-04-06 On a “fateful Friday,” Harry Chester, Harvey Kurtzman’s production manager, tells William Gaines that 10% is not the winning number as it will not give Kurtzman the creative control he wants on Mad. Chester tells Gaines that Kurtzman wants 51%. Gaines refuses to give up ownership (“if he had just asked for 49% and not 51%”). He calls Kurtzman at his home, and says “goodbye.” He then calls his attorney, Martin Scheiman, to have him call Kurtzman to confirm the conversation. After the lawyer confirms the conversation the two part ways.

Al Jaffee turns in work (Job Numbers K-250 to K-254) on a full issue of Patsy and Hedy. #45 is due to the CMAA NOW to Stan Lee. Lee tells Al (jokingly?) that he has competition for his job. Jaffe tells him to use the competitor. On Patsy Walker, which he has worked on for a decade or so, he would get an idea, write it out, add quick sketches, feel like he has done the whole thing, and then begin the drudgery of turning that into a finished work, the only motive for doing so is the mortgage. He spends 18 hours a day grinding out the work. He gets home an hour and a half later, and his wife tells him Lee has been calling non-stop. Jaffe calls Lee back and quits, officially. He can’t do it anymore. He then calls Harvey Kurtzman to accept his offer. Kurtzman tells him he has just left Mad, but something is in the wings.

Al Jaffee’s Mad Life. Even though Lee has an issue’s worth of work for Patsy and Heddy by Jaffee in hand, he will shelve it for two months, risking the ire of the CMAA, and have Al Hartley, former artist on Meet Miss Bliss and current artist (and sometimes writer) on Della Vision/Patty Powers, do the next issue (the 1956-06-05 Patsy and Heddy #45), both art and writing (Job Numbers #339, 362, 363, 433, 434). Hartley does the last story for the 1956-05-23 Patty Powers #7 (Job Number #273) and gets to work. Is this what kills the Patty Powers book? 

At Gaines’ home that night, Joe Orlando (who visits the Gaines 3 or 4 nights a week), along with Gaines’ wife Nancy, tells him, as he holds his head and declares he is going back to teaching, to hire Al Feldstein, who had done PANIC, to replace Kurtzman. Gaines says he doesn’t like Feldstein, he comes in early and tries out everything first. Gaines calls the recently fired (on Kurtzman’s insistence) Lyle Stuart, who is vacationing in Florida. Stuart tells Gaines to throw Kurtzman and Chester out the window, and to get Feldstein (who he never liked) back. Gaines will gamble to continue Mad under Feldstein if Wallace Wood remains with the magazine. Wood, on Orlando’s suggestion and loyalty to Gaines, stays with Mad. While doing some work for Atlas, Feldstein has been shopping around a magazine conceived as a showcase for new talent like Lenny Bruce. He has largely been out of work for four months. Gaines meets Feldstein, returning home from a job search, on the platform of the Merrick station of the Long Island Railroad. MAD gets a new editor.

1956-04-09 Al Feldstein is back at EC early Monday morning. He has quit working for Stan Lee at Atlas. Has he done any work on Yellow Claw #2? Probably not as his work on Yellow Claw #1 are Job Numbers K-215, 239, and 260, and the book is due to the CMAA at the end of the week. Roth does a (always planned?) non-Yellow Claw story (Job Number 358) that is used to complete the book, along with a text feature (Job Number K-418) with an illustration by John Severin. Stan Lee probably immediately calls up Jack Kirby (whose recent return to Atlas (Goodman) with Job Number K-282 was facilitated by Frank Giacoia) and offers him the book, starting with the 1956-08-14 Yellow Claw #2 (which will be Job Numbers K-648, 663, 868, and 915). Kirby will do a couple of genre shorts (Job Numbers K-651, 652) before sporadically completing Yellow Claw #2.

Al Feldstein’s first issue will be Mad #29 (September 1956). He takes over with the zeal of a lineman coming off the bench. He is also on his knees praying for artists and writers to help him do this job. John Putnam, the art director and designer of Mad, remains. He joined EC in 1954 as a $75 a week temporary employee, He and Harvey Kurtzman, both intellectual types, always felt uncomfortable working together. <Putnam and Feldstein will become a smooth-running team, allowing Putnam creative touches as long as clarity is maintained.> Feldstein thinks Kurtzman had started in the right direction, but it’s one kind of humor threatened to go off on a tangent. He seeks a more general appeal.

With Harvey Kurtzman gone, Feldstein contacts John Severin to do some work for HIS Mad magazine. Way back on 1954-08-14 (after Mad #10) Severin had sent a letter to Kurtzman and Bill Gaines stating that he had to resign from any book edited by Kurtzman. Unfortunately for Feldstein, Severin has just accepted a staff position with Stan Lee at Atlas (offered because of what led to the departure of Feldstein?). As such, Lee won’t let him work for the competition. Lee has Severin working primarily on western features.  On the other hand, for unknown reasons, Severin has only done four stories on a Feldstein book (Weird Fantasy #18-21). The staff job may not have been necessary to keep him from working for Feldstein. Lee will have Severin ink Kirby on the suddenly late in production Yellow Claw #2. (ME: Correction. Severin does the cover of #2, but doesn't ink interiors until #4 - the last issue. Kirby would ink his own work with the help of his wife Roz for #2 and #3.)

History in the making...best move would of been getting Harvey like 50/50 but Al was a solid sub...and the rest is history...great summary thank you!!!! But Trump 1/2 were great, but not MAD....he sort of raised the baron those. One question is sales...does anyone know how issues 1 sold and issues 2....on trump.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Mmehdy

[shadroch]

Stan Lee asked his publisher to be reimbursed for flying to a business meeting.

Really.

This is the sort of he is getting bashed for. Two hundred dollars was a lot of money in the 1950s.

[shadroch]

Kirby, Romita, and Buscema worked from home, but Stan stayed home to waste time and goof off. . 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/14/2023 at 3:40 PM, Mmehdy said:

History in the making...best move would of been getting Harvey like 50/50 but Al was a solid sub...and the rest is history...great summary thank you!!!! But Trump 1/2 were great, but not MAD....he sort of raised the baron those. One question is sales...does anyone know how issues 1 sold and issues 2....on trump.

From what I remember reading about it, they were disappointed in the sales, and felt the size more than the format was to blame (though at 50 cents, it was twice what an issue of MAD cost... but what ended it was Hefner pulling the plug. It apparently wasn't what he hoped it would be, but even more than that was the money he put into it. His famous quote about it:

"I gave Harvey Kurtzman an unlimited budget at TRUMP, and he exceeded it."  

He had the right idea... he just didn't have the chance to continue it...

[jimjum12]

On 9/14/2023 at 7:21 PM, shadroch said:

Stan Lee asked his publisher to be reimbursed for flying to a business meeting.

Really.

This is the sort of he is getting bashed for. Two hundred dollars was a lot of money in the 1950s.

As was the 20K that Kirby was bringing home. It was a King's Ransom then, many people were struggling to make 5K yearly, and buying power of money was much more favorable. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/15/2023 at 4:07 AM, jimjum12 said:

As was the 20K that Kirby was bringing home. It was a King's Ransom then, many people were struggling to make 5K yearly, and buying power of money was much more favorable. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

I don't think anyone denies that Kirby was paid well for the time (my dad was earning $5000 a year in the mid-60s, which was a decent, middle-class wage back in the day, enough to support a house, a family, and an annual vacation). However, if your employer is making a pile of money off your labor, it seems appropriate to get compensated accordingly. Maybe $20000 a year seemed adequate to Kirby at the time (he didn't complain about his salary, to my recollection--his main beef in interviews was the lack of control over his ideas) but getting a larger piece of the pie in his retirement years, when Marvel really took off financially, would have been a nice touch. Kind of like how Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster eventually got some recognition from DC (if belatedly).

[Steven Valdez]

On 8/24/2023 at 6:23 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

On 8/24/2023 at 6:41 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Notice the cover blurb specifies "The REAL" Captain America. Was this a variant cover?

 

Stan must have modified the cover before it was published. 'The REAL' would have been in reference to the fake Captain America 'tryout' in Strange Tales #114.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[jimjum12]

On 9/15/2023 at 9:23 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

On 9/15/2023 at 5:07 AM, jimjum12 said:

As was the 20K that Kirby was bringing home. It was a King's Ransom then, many people were struggling to make 5K yearly, and buying power of money was much more favorable. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

I don't think anyone denies that Kirby was paid well for the time (my dad was earning $5000 a year in the mid-60s, which was a decent, middle-class wage back in the day, enough to support a house, a family, and an annual vacation). However, if your employer is making a pile of money off your labor, it seems appropriate to get compensated accordingly. Maybe $20000 a year seemed adequate to Kirby at the time (he didn't complain about his salary, to my recollection--his main beef in interviews was the lack of control over his ideas) but getting a larger piece of the pie in his retirement years, when Marvel really took off financially, would have been a nice touch. Kind of like how Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster eventually got some recognition from DC (if belatedly).

Kirby wasn't a good business man, that was his drawback. Plus he was in an industry that offered work that a person could enjoy, with creative satisfaction, and from home ? .... those publishers were playing them like violins, and the best ones were making great money. I had a pal who played for the Baltimore Colts in the 50's and 60's, and while he made great money, he still had to have a job offseason. Comic guys were similar unless VERY prolific. McFarlane and Lee finally popped that bubble. As for the 20K a year.... a very good friend of mine(R.I.P.) bought an entire Marina with a home on the site for 12K in 1960, so Kirby definitely wasn't eating cat food and baked beans every day. For an unambitious business man, it would have been easy to become complacent. He caught a good boning for sure, but I still think most of that occurred way above Stan's head. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Steven Valdez]

On 8/29/2023 at 11:31 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #12 -

Part TWO:

Ditko was masterful at that point.

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/1/2023 at 2:22 AM, shadroch said:

Eight-year-old shadrochs favorite hero was Giant-Man.  He was impressed with the wordsmith who took Ant-Man and added two letters to create Gi-Ant man.

I never understood why they didn't just call him SIZE-Man and be done with it.

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/11/2023 at 4:43 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Strange Tales #120 - AD

Take my 25 cents and keep the change!!

[Prince Namor]

My thoughts on Kirby's 'big' earnings:

We've seen that Don Heck was making $20 a page for pencils AND inks (and of course, having to write and plan out the story)...

So if Kirby was making $20,000 a year in 1964, and I'm not sure anyone knows exactly what he was making at this time, then he was getting paid $16.40 a page, including covers. That can't be right. 

By my count - for 1964 - 1112 pages with 105 covers. 

He had to be making more than $20,000 a year.

BUT... that's 3.33 pages a DAY for a full year.

A DAY for a full YEAR. 

He EARNED every penny he made.

 

If your dad made that kind of money in 1964, but had to work 7 days a week, 8-10 hours a day, you wouldn't say he was LUCKY. You'd say he more than EARNED it. And you'd resent the SOB that stole part of his pay. 

[Zonker]

I missed the reference to Kirby's 1964 take-home pay being $20,000, but that seems somewhat consistent with what the NYT reported in 1970 when he jumped ship to DC (i.e. a raise to $35,000 for probably less work in his final year at Marvel).

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Zonker

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/16/2023 at 8:26 AM, Prince Namor said:

My thoughts on Kirby's 'big' earnings:

We've seen that Don Heck was making $20 a page for pencils AND inks (and of course, having to write and plan out the story)...

So if Kirby was making $20,000 a year in 1964, and I'm not sure anyone knows exactly what he was making at this time, then he was getting paid $16.40 a page, including covers. That can't be right. 

By my count - for 1964 - 1112 pages with 105 covers. 

He had to be making more than $20,000 a year.

BUT... that's 3.33 pages a DAY for a full year.

A DAY for a full YEAR. 

He EARNED every penny he made.

 

If your dad made that kind of money in 1964, but had to work 7 days a week, 8-10 hours a day, you wouldn't say he was LUCKY. You'd say he more than EARNED it. And you'd resent the SOB that stole part of his pay. 

Yeah, Kirby made that kind of money because he was doing the equivalent of 5 (or more) jobs. As has been discussed, he was only paid for his penciling, not his conceptualization, plotting, pacing, writing etc. Stan Lee was 'too busy' for all those things, he had important proofreading to do. Lots of golfing too,

Edited September 16, 2023 by Steven Valdez