Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[Prince Namor]

On 9/24/2023 at 11:35 AM, Steven Valdez said:

It's incredible to me that people are STILL denying that affidavit return fraud was rampant in the '60s and '70s. Not just rampant, it was the norm. It's almost as if the denialists were active participants in it themselves, and don't want it coming out.

The Cult of Lee MUST believe it was Kirby failing. They MUST. IF they accept affidavit fraud, their argument begins to crumble.

In their eyes accepting that Neal Adams was a failure is a small price to pay for victory in the Kirby debate.

[Prince Namor]

"As they were coming out, New Gods and Forever People had tremendous buzz and high demand in sales. With the titles canceled by late 1972, back issue interest obviously did wane over time."

- Bob Beerbohm (who was THERE)

[shadroch]

 It's a shame when ignorant people make wild accusations about things they are clueless about.   

Valdez claims he knows it was widespread because his uncle got in trouble when distributors refused to sell him returns.  Somehow, distributors not selling his uncle books proves they all were engaged in illegal activity.

He claims it was widespread, yet Mile High Chuck had to go from Denver to Long Island to find the only known hoard of pilfered books. 

Then he says it wasn't the big distributors, only the little ones.   Which little ones?  What small distributor had thousands of books they could not distribute regularly?  Somehow, all the books the distributors sold cash, and carry were illegal, and legitimate businesses that bought books from them are all shady. 

But he read it on the internet, so it must be true.  Utterly clueless ,but never in doubt.

[shadroch]

On 9/24/2023 at 8:44 AM, Prince Namor said:

The Cult of Lee MUST believe it was Kirby failing. They MUST. IF they accept affidavit fraud, their argument begins to crumble.

In their eyes accepting that Neal Adams was a failure is a small price to pay for victory in the Kirby debate.

Adam's books didn't sell that great to the public.  He had a following, but Batman was not a top-selling book, not the ones he did, not the many he didn't do. 

Green Lantern wasn't a popular character before or after Adam's run.  He ended up as a backup in the Flash, which wasn't a great seller either. 

In the 80s, DC put out deluxe editions of the Adams runs and they didn't sell very well either.  DC over-printed them, thinking there would be more demand. Seagate gave me two bundles for free when I opened my shop.  

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/25/2023 at 1:44 AM, Prince Namor said:

The Cult of Lee MUST believe it was Kirby failing. They MUST. IF they accept affidavit fraud, their argument begins to crumble.

In their eyes accepting that Neal Adams was a failure is a small price to pay for victory in the Kirby debate.

Yes, they remind me of young earth creationists who prefer to throw science under the bus rather than admit their magical beliefs aren't true.

[jimjum12]

On 9/24/2023 at 11:50 AM, shadroch said:

He claims it was widespread, yet Mile High Chuck had to go from Denver to Long Island to find the only known hoard of pilfered books. 

... and they were still UNSOLD ... 

.. I believe Rozanski has said that he STILL has MHII books that haven't sold, 40 years later. 

... and Fandom was not hotter than ever in 1974, it was just beginning. Shows were few and far between. This one is only my opinion, but maybe sales were down in '74 because the price had doubled in 5 years and the quality was atrocious, except for possibly a couple of Starlin books. They were so lousy I quit buying for several years. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[shadroch]

On 9/24/2023 at 8:46 AM, Prince Namor said:

"As they were coming out, New Gods and Forever People had tremendous buzz and high demand in sales. With the titles canceled by late 1972, back issue interest obviously did wane over time."

- Bob Beerbohm (who was THERE)

Absolutely.  Kirby's DC books had a tremendous buzz, but the luster wore off very quickly.   Do you know what else had tremendous buzz?  Shazam.  It might have been the most anticipated comic in years, but that thrill wore off just as fast.  DC books simply didn't have the legs that Marvels did. 

[shadroch]

If you look at where the ballots came from in the poll gowers posted, you'll see it didn't reflect the comic-reading public.  The ballots were only available to hardcore fans who subscribed to comic fan-based newsletters and adzines.  I'd think the fact they were dumb enough to select that big fraud Stan Lee( the world's biggest liar according to one poster) as best editor would render the rest of their opinions meaningless.

[jimjum12]

On 9/24/2023 at 12:01 PM, shadroch said:

Absolutely.  Kirby's DC books had a tremendous buzz, but the luster wore off very quickly.   Do you know what else had tremendous buzz?  Shazam.  It might have been the most anticipated comic in years, but that thrill wore off just as fast.  DC books simply didn't have the legs that Marvels did. 

... and that crucifixion cover GL/GA 89 didn't go over well in about half the country ... misguided of course, but the book burnings of the 50's were not exactly a distant memory.... and juvenile delinquency wasn't exactly on the decline. Sometimes things were ahead of their time. I seem to recall Adams mentioning once that he DIDN'T want that series to go on and on, he didn't want it to devolve into "Cause Of The Month" comics. But then, that sort of sound bite doesn't fit the narrative, does it ? Adams was also falling behind on deadlines again, just like with X-Men. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Zonker]

It's interesting to realize how different things were 50 years ago.  I wasn't there, but I do happen to have a copy of the 1974 Overstreet. 

Overstreet prices of course are never exactly correct, but he did report as of 1973 that the value of those early New Gods issues was greater than all but the Ditko issues of ASM.      If speculation was going on in the early 1970s, it seems reasonable to believe what was being speculated on was not the then-current, "low-value" Spideys, but instead the prospective next big thing. (Maybe it would be Conan.  Or New Gods.  Or Shazam!)

[shadroch]

On 9/24/2023 at 8:58 AM, jimjum12 said:

... and they were still UNSOLD ... 

.. I believe Rozanski has said that he STILL has MHII books that haven't sold, 40 years later. 

... and Fandom was not hotter than ever in 1974, it was just beginning. Shows were few and far between. This one is only my opinion, but maybe sales were down in '74 because the price had doubled in 5 years and the quality was atrocious, except for possibly a couple of Starlin books. They were so lousy I quit buying for several years. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Marvel sales must have suffered during this period because the editors couldn't meet deadlines.  Almost every Marvel book had an issue with a reprint as the new story wasn't done in time.   After thirty-plus years of not missing deadlines, Marvel suddenly had a severe problem with that.  I'm sure it was just a coincidence this happened right after Stan stepped down. 

[Prince Namor]

As early as 1979 Joe Brancatelli was exposing how the back door of comics worked...

[Prince Namor]

I wonder what some people did with those left over bundles?

[Prince Namor]

What books is Roy saying missed deadlines? Where was the severe problem? I just did a small sample...

Amazing Spider-man never missed a deadline from the time Roy took over, through Len Wein's short reign, and through Marv Wolfman through the end of the 70's. 

Fantastic Four never missed a deadline from the time Roy took over, through Len Wein's short reign, and through Marv Wolfman through the end of the 70's. 

Hmmm... maybe Starlin on Capt. Marvel, one too many acid trips... no...

Captain Marvel never missed a deadline from the time Roy took over, through Len Wein's short reign, and through Marv Wolfman through to its cancelation at the end of the 70's. 

Conan? Nope.

Conan never missed a deadline from the time Roy took over, through Len Wein's short reign, and through Marv Wolfman through the end of the 70's. 

[shadroch]

Conan 16, 47, and 64 were all reprints or inventory stories caused by missed deadlines.   Spiderman 116, 117 and 118 was an inventory story caused by a missed deadline.  Avengers 136, 144-145 and 150 were reprints or inventory stories. I can think of one FF issue, 153, maybe? Black Panther's solo debut in Jungle Action #5 has him on the cover, but a reprint inside.   Captain Marvel #36 is, as well.  Iron Man, Ghost Rider,Killraven,Doctor Strange, Marvel Feature, even Sgt. Fury all missed deadlines.  In the mid-70s, an unofficial title called Marvel Fill-in was started so they'd at least have new material for when a deadline was missed.

I've no idea why gower denies these issues happened, but it does illustrate his lack of knowledge of the era. 

Collecting these fifty-plus accidental issues would make an exciting subset.

  There are several articles about Marvels deadline issues.  It didn't end until Shooter took over.  It's always bothered me that it took almost seven years to replace a guy who spent most of his time on the golf course and hardly showed up to work.

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by shadroch

[steveinthecity]

On 9/24/2023 at 12:54 PM, shadroch said:

Conan 16, 47, and 64 were all reprints or inventory stories caused by missed deadlines.   Spiderman 116, 117 and 118 was an inventory story caused by a missed deadline.  Avengers 136, 144-145 and 150 were reprints or inventory stories. I can think of one FF issue, 153, maybe? Black Panther's solo debut in Jungle Action #5 has him on the cover, but a reprint inside.   Captain Marvel #36 is, as well.  Iron Man, Ghost Rider,Killraven,Doctor Strange, Marvel Feature, even Sgt. Fury all missed deadlines.  In the mid-70s, an unofficial title called Marvel Fill-in was started so they'd at least have new material for when a deadline was missed.

I've no idea why gower denies these issues happened, but it does illustrate his lack of knowledge of the era. 

Collecting these fifty-plus accidental issues would make an exciting subset.

 

 

Would make an interesting subset.  I was trying to remember some and recall Power-Man #29 was a one-off inventory story(“Mr. Fish”) and also FF #180 reprinted FF #101.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/24/2023 at 2:54 PM, shadroch said:

Conan 16, 47, and 64 were all reprints or inventory stories caused by missed deadlines.   Spiderman 116, 117 and 118 was an inventory story caused by a missed deadline.  Avengers 136, 144-145 and 150 were reprints or inventory stories. I can think of one FF issue, 153, maybe? Black Panther's solo debut in Jungle Action #5 has him on the cover, but a reprint inside.   Captain Marvel #36 is, as well.  Iron Man, Ghost Rider,Killraven,Doctor Strange, Marvel Feature, even Sgt. Fury all missed deadlines.  In the mid-70s, an unofficial title called Marvel Fill-in was started so they'd at least have new material for when a deadline was missed.

I've no idea why gower denies these issues happened, but it does illustrate his lack of knowledge of the era. 

Collecting these fifty-plus accidental issues would make an exciting subset.

  There are several articles about Marvels deadline issues.  It didn't end until Shooter took over.  It's always bothered me that it took almost seven years to replace a guy who spent most of his time on the golf course and hardly showed up to work.

 

FF 154 was part reprint, with a 6-page framing sequence by Len Wein and Bob Brown around a Thing/Torch Strange Tales story.

I was just getting into Marvels during this era, so the reprints were all stories I hadn't seen before. I can see how it would bother a long-time fan, though.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/24/2023 at 11:23 AM, shadroch said:

Marvel sales must have suffered during this period because the editors couldn't meet deadlines.  Almost every Marvel book had an issue with a reprint as the new story wasn't done in time.   After thirty-plus years of not missing deadlines, Marvel suddenly had a severe problem with that.  I'm sure it was just a coincidence this happened right after Stan stepped down. 

Stan certainly made the trains run on time. It surely helped that he had workhorses like Kirby, Colan, and John Buscema who routinely did three books a month. It's hard to get too far behind if your best artists can turn out a book in a week and a half. That's the difference between having experienced professionals instead of talented newbies running the operation.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
experienced professionals

[shadroch]

On 9/24/2023 at 1:32 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Stan certainly made the trains run on time. It surely helped that he had workhorses like Kirby, Colan, and John Buscema who routinely did three books a month. It's hard to get too far behind if your best artists can turn out a book in a week and a half. That's the difference between having experienced professionals instead of talented newbies running the operation.

Stans hand-picked team, but I'm sure that was just another coincidence.  The further Marvel got from the original Marvel Method, the more problems popped up.

[shadroch]

Sometimes, the inventory was unnoticed.  I think Spiderman 116-118 could have been regular issues, but occasionally they interrupted a storyline.  The Avengers were mixing it up with the Squadron Supreme for the first time when we got a two-issue fill-in about an assassin who kills heroes.  All the Avengers gathered for a gala 150th issue, where the government was to pick the new team.  The problem was the artist blew the deadline.