Tatooz and ASM 238, why is it different? 4 4

[Lazyboy]

On 10/22/2023 at 5:18 PM, Ixthinon said:

This is in regards with the Tatooz inclusion was for some of the Marvel titles released in March 1983, which included ASM 238. I have looked into titles that could have the tatooz and noticed that CGC awards them a blue label with or without the Tatooz. Like Say UXM 167 some of these books have the Tatooz, while some do not - both blue label. Why is ASM 238 different in this regard to whether it gets a blue or green label? Some of the ASM 238's surely did not even come with them in the first place, just as the other Marvel issues from March 1983.  

The answer is very, very simple:

Some copies of other issues may have the insert, but those are manufacturing errors.

[davidpg]

On 10/23/2023 at 8:52 AM, Randall Dowling said:

I forget every other issue that had them.  But pretty sure I've seen the insert in these others:

• Iron Man 168
• Marvel Tales 149
• X-men 167
• Captain America 279
• Thor 329
• Avengers 229
• Conan 144

Probably other issues, as well.  I don't think these had the insert in every issue printed.  May have been regional or similar to Mark Jewelers?  I don't know.

Let me throw wrench into the works now.  I bought 4 of the books you listed above off the racks (and I still have them!).  I'm up in Canuckistan and thet are all CPVs...and I have NEVER seen any Tattooz inserts in any of those books.  Has there really ever been a confirmed CPV instance of an insert (an OO copy, one that for sure hadn't been married)?

[Tom789]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:32 PM, Lightning55 said:

I'm still trying to figure out how CGC can tell if an insert has been married into a different book than where it originated (e.g. pulled from FF 252 and inserted into ASM 238).  Any theories???

Sometimes they can, sometimes they can't.  A certain presser on YouTube married an insert into an ASM 238 and it came back from CGC as married.  He then married a different insert into the same book, and it came back from CGC with a blue label.

[grendelbo]

I hate the missing Tattoos flaw deduction. Whatever. Probably more than anything else regarding grading comic books.  

[sledgehammer]

On 10/24/2023 at 12:12 AM, grendelbo said:

I hate the missing Tattoos flaw deduction. Whatever. Probably more than anything else regarding grading comic books.  

CGC didn't create this stupidity.

In 1994, the book had a value of $70 with tattooz, and $30 without.

Complete, utter, nonsense.

[Randall Dowling]

On 10/24/2023 at 12:12 AM, grendelbo said:

I hate the missing Tattoos flaw deduction. Whatever. Probably more than anything else regarding grading comic books.  

 

On 10/24/2023 at 6:15 AM, sledgehammer said:

CGC didn't create this stupidity.

In 1994, the book had a value of $70 with tattooz, and $30 without.

Complete, utter, nonsense.

I think particularly because it seems very inconsistent for inclusion at time of production.  My guess is that many copies of ASM 238 and FF 252 never had the insert included when printed and, as @Lazyboy said, the other titles (Iron Man, X-men, etc.) that had the insert sporadically, are production errors. 

While I have always thought it was pretty dumb, it doesn't really matter.  Collectors will always value the books with everything included over books that don't.

[VintageComics]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:18 PM, Ixthinon said:

This is in regards with the Tatooz inclusion was for some of the Marvel titles released in March 1983, which included ASM 238. I have looked into titles that could have the tatooz and noticed that CGC awards them a blue label with or without the Tatooz. Like Say UXM 167 some of these books have the Tatooz, while some do not - both blue label. Why is ASM 238 different in this regard to whether it gets a blue or green label? Some of the ASM 238's surely did not even come with them in the first place, just as the other Marvel issues from March 1983.  

For the same reason CGC grades vary from book to book. They don't use objective standards. They use subjective standards. 

 

[Ixthinon]

On 10/22/2023 at 9:32 PM, Lightning55 said:

That 18 year old thread has some information, but outdated, in that price guides are back to differentiating prices for issues missing the tattooz insert, or the tattooz missing from the insert.

I'm still trying to figure out how CGC can tell if an insert has been married into a different book than where it originated (e.g. pulled from FF 252 and inserted into ASM 238).  Any theories???

Is there some type of identifier on the inserts that tip off where it was originally used?  Or do they look for staple holes that don't match up perfectly, like extra staple holes? The wrong positioning on the page, doesn't line up exactly to the top of the page or some other marker?  Different tattooz assigned to each comic title, so they can tell it has the wrong one?  Can they even see the tattooz in the insert? Seems like it would be difficult to tell if original or replacement. Maybe @The Lions Den knows from his past experiences.

I also wonder if there are any instances where a legit 238 gets a qualified label for a married insert because it looks a bit off?  You send in what you know is a legit 238, CGC grader gives it the slant eye, calls it married, gets encapsulated, game over. 

You can't even recheck it yourself when you get it back, without cracking it out and wasting your grading money.  Probably crack it anyway and take your chances on try #2, hoping to miss that same grader.

It is my understanding they can tell by 2 big factors:

The first is if the staples have been pulled up by metal tools they strip some of the metal - the striped areas are usually easy enough to detect as its shiny metal.

The second is the top staple is used to hold the inserts. If there are tears around that staple it is a good indicator they once had tatooz and were removed. 

 

[Ixthinon]

On 10/23/2023 at 2:35 PM, Lazyboy said:

The answer is very, very simple:

Some copies of other issues may have the insert, but those are manufacturing errors.

Yes but some of the ASM 238's also must have not come with the Tatooz in the first place, by virtue of the same manufacturing errors. I have heard many times that people have bought these books and havent touched them until recently and they appeared to not even had come with them when they bought them way back when. It seems plausible that CGC has been green labeling ASM 238's despite evidence these books never came with them. I do not also see any manufacturing error effecting the grades of the other books with or without the tatooz also. A UXM 167 isnt dinged for having or missing them.

[Ixthinon]

Books that may or may not include the Tattooz besides ASM 238 and Fantastic Four 252:

Uncanny X-men 167

Avengers 229

Daredevil 192

Iron Man 168

Captain America 279

Incredible Hulk 281

Spectacular Spider-Man 76

Conan the Barbarian 144

Marvel 2 in 1 97

ROM 40

(Maybe more)

[Lazyboy]

On 10/24/2023 at 6:15 PM, Ixthinon said:

Yes but some of the ASM 238's also must have not come with the Tatooz in the first place, by virtue of the same manufacturing errors.

Of course, but ASM 238 and FF 252 plainly state on the cover that they come with Tattooz, so they are missing something they are supposed to have, regardless of the reason.

On 10/24/2023 at 6:15 PM, Ixthinon said:

I do not also see any manufacturing error effecting the grades of the other books with or without the tatooz also. A UXM 167 isnt dinged for having or missing them.

Why do you keep ignoring the fact that two, and only two, issues are meant to have the insert, which means they are incomplete without it? Having something extra, like an insert that wasn't meant for all copies or an extra page, doesn't and shouldn't affect the grade.

[Hamlet]

On 10/23/2023 at 7:52 AM, Randall Dowling said:

I forget every other issue that had them.  But pretty sure I've seen the insert in these others:

• Iron Man 168
• Marvel Tales 149
• X-men 167
• Captain America 279
• Thor 329
• Avengers 229
• Conan 144

Probably other issues, as well.  I don't think these had the insert in every issue printed.  May have been regional or similar to Mark Jewelers?  I don't know.

My suspicion is that Marvel had extra Tatooz after putting them in ASM 238 and FF 252, and just thru the rest into these other books to use them up.  So ASM 238 and FF 252 were all supposed to have Tatooz ( although as you mentioned, many of them may not have actually gotten them ), and these other books had a small number of copies with the extras.

I have no proof of this, but it seems likely to me.