What do you consider to be Science Fiction? 6 6

[bc]

I like the "proto sci-fi" label for Frankenstein. Almost akin to the Platinum Age for comics.

Even though the technology involved is pretty simplistic (stitch together a bunch of boy parts and shock the  out of it with lightning) - it was futuristic then.

Even later works by Wells & Verne didn't really get into any detail about the futuristic technology, just the effects on mankind. Sort of like the Golden Age.

I'd say later sci-fi seemed to try and explain the technology in much more detail (and cosmic) using the parlance of the times. Silver Age material.

-bc

[VintageComics]

On 11/27/2023 at 5:41 PM, Microchip said:

She was hanging out with Lord Byron at the time, and their circle of aristocrat friends were holidaying in Europe, challenging each other to come up with unique and innovative stories.

She was in the right place, with the right people around her, and the masterpiece was born.

 

 

You so smart. 

[Hulksdaddy1]

While Frankenstein has scifi elements to it, it just doesn't "feel" like SciFi. I actually think that a lot about much of what is considered SciFi these days.

[Microchip]

On 11/28/2023 at 10:09 AM, VintageComics said:

You so smart. 

Smart friends.

A friend sent the link's on the lectures from Hillside College as great way to consume 30 hours of my life in fulfilling self improvement.  

I got through the first hour, then bailed on it 

 

[Microchip]

On 11/28/2023 at 10:23 AM, Hulksdaddy1 said:

While Frankenstein has scifi elements to it, it just doesn't "feel" like SciFi. I actually think that a lot about much of what is considered SciFi these days.

For my money, Asimov, and Frank Herbert are more aligned to what we understand as science Fiction.   Mary came at it with a strong horror element firstly.   The sci-fi component was almost just the setting in which the story unfolded.   But the sci-fi setting was entirely integral to her story, and it's success with audiences.

[mrc]

Science fiction can be found in the remote past. Among the earliest examples is the 2nd century, Syrian-born Greek satirist Lucian, who in Trips to the Moon describes sailing to the Moon. Such flights of fancy, or fantastic tales, provided a popular format in which to satirize government, society, and religion while evading libel suits, censorship, and persecution.

The clearest forerunner of the genre however, was the 17th century swashbuckler Cyrano de Bergerac, who wrote of a voyager to the Moon finding a utopian society of men free from war, disease, and hunger. The voyager eats fruit from the biblical tree of knowledge and joins lunar society as a philosopher, until he is expelled from the Moon for blasphemy. Following a short return to Earth, he travels to the Sun, where a society of birds puts him on trial for humanity’s crimes. In creating his diversion, Cyrano took it as his mission to make impossible things seem plausible.

[mysterymachine]

If Frankenstein is Sci-Fi, movies like Re-Animator, From Beyond, and Return of the Living Dead would also be Sci-Fi.

Even though it is technically sci fi, you can find a movie horrifying to watch. If the movie horrifies you, then it should classify as horror, right?

[MattTheDuck]

On 11/27/2023 at 3:54 PM, mrc said:

Science fiction can be found in the remote past. Among the earliest examples is the 2nd century, Syrian-born Greek satirist Lucian, who in Trips to the Moon describes sailing to the Moon. Such flights of fancy, or fantastic tales, provided a popular format in which to satirize government, society, and religion while evading libel suits, censorship, and persecution.

The clearest forerunner of the genre however, was the 17th century swashbuckler Cyrano de Bergerac, who wrote of a voyager to the Moon finding a utopian society of men free from war, disease, and hunger. The voyager eats fruit from the biblical tree of knowledge and joins lunar society as a philosopher, until he is expelled from the Moon for blasphemy. Following a short return to Earth, he travels to the Sun, where a society of birds puts him on trial for humanity’s crimes. In creating his diversion, Cyrano took it as his mission to make impossible things seem plausible.

I am quite sure, were we to able to travel there and understand the language, we would find numerous fantastical tales told around the campfires of antiquity that we would easily recognize as "science fiction."  Ancient alien researchers and theorists find much evidence in ancient writings such as the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Sanxingdui documents.

[Microchip]

On 11/28/2023 at 12:02 PM, MattTheDuck said:

I am quite sure, were we to able to travel there and understand the language, we would find numerous fantastical tales told around the campfires of antiquity that we would easily recognize as "science fiction."  Ancient alien researchers and theorists find much evidence in ancient writings such as the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Sanxingdui documents.

Ancient sci-fi, or past civilisations long since gone, and reduced to oral histories past along?

There is something of an order to sci-fi that we recognise as "genuine" when we see it, or read it.  

The plausibility of something fantastical quite quickly feels 'right' more often than not.  We don't all the have the bewilderment of a pigmy tribe living on the banks of the Amazon.    Things in sci-fi resonate with us, again and again.  Why is that?

[Mr Sneeze]

Certainly sci-fi for me. There is nothing in the story that boarders on fantasy or magic. Great sci-fi and horror are not mutually exclusive.

[VintageComics]

On 11/27/2023 at 8:30 PM, Microchip said:

The plausibility of something fantastical quite quickly feels 'right' more often than not.  We don't all the have the bewilderment of a pigmy tribe living on the banks of the Amazon.    Things in sci-fi resonate with us, again and again.  Why is that?

That's a great question.

I believe that the 'truth' has a 'ring' or resonance to it. Even if you disagree with it because it goes against your beliefs, or refuse to believe it, deep down you know it's true. 

And I believe this resonance is recognized by all humans. Some just choose not to listen to it. 

So when something has an element of truth to it, humans find it...I'm not sure what the word is I'm looking for...they find it "grounding" or anchoring to something within them. 

This is what great writers and artists find in people with their work pr art. They find that resonance and then 'play' on it, only in a good way. They 'play' with that resonance and build an experience around it, whether visual, auditory or both. 

I think this is why I have trouble with pure magic (magick ? ), because it isn't rooted or has any basis in any reality. I actually find things not rooted in reality abhorrent and a turn off. 

Sci Fi has a resonance to it that rings true to us, as though it's something that is coming, or something that has already gone before. Not something that will never be. 

I literally just winged that last sentence and never thought about it that way before just now, but it rings true to me...and so that actually disqualifies Frankenstein from Science Fiction for the very reason that I believe we will NEVER be able to create a human life from scratch, or from the dead. Ever.

Once you introduce things like magic, non-reality, and mind-bending things that are not possible, you start to crossover into other realms or genres.

For example, like Event Horizon with San Neill. Technically, it starts as a Science Fiction movie, but that movie starts to leave reality and it becomes a Horror movie. I'd never classify the 2nd part of that movie Sci Fi. It kind of blends the genres and is part Sci Fi and part Horror. 

So, Sci Fi needs a component of truth to it as it's basis for the story.

That seems to hold true to me. Does anyone disagree?

[VintageComics]

On 11/27/2023 at 8:44 PM, Mr Sneeze said:

Great sci-fi and horror are not mutually exclusive.

I just disagreed in my post, and explained why at exactly the same time you posted this.

 

[Mr Sneeze]

Just saying that great stories have many elements and in Frankenstien in particular, the means is sci-fi - especially of the day - and the ends, or the outcome is the horror.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Mr Sneeze
changed 'end' to 'ends'

[Sauce Dog]

On 11/27/2023 at 8:44 PM, VintageComics said:

I literally just winged that last sentence and never thought about it that way before just now, but it rings true to me...and so that actually disqualifies Frankenstein from Science Fiction for the very reason that I believe we will NEVER be able to create a human life from scratch, or from the dead. Ever.

Once you introduce things like magic, non-reality, and mind-bending things that are not possible, you start to crossover into other realms or genres.

For example, like Event Horizon with San Neill. Technically, it starts as a Science Fiction movie, but that movie starts to leave reality and it becomes a Horror movie. I'd never classify the 2nd part of that movie Sci Fi. It kind of blends the genres and is part Sci Fi and part Horror. 

So, Sci Fi needs a component of truth to it as it's basis for the story.

That seems to hold true to me. Does anyone disagree?

Nah, what you are describing basically sounds like getting into the debate on the differences between soft-scifi and hard-scifi. I don't find 'truth' value a meaningful distinction, as every story genre has a component of truth (be it literal or metaphorical) for the basis of the story.

I personally don't see any reason why we won't eventually create human life from scratch (though that word needs to be defined, as it is very vague on exactly what you mean. Are you talking about scratch as in, Carl Sagan's apple pie from scratch?). I find the idea of creating life from the dead even more probably, as we are already working with a system of materials that we know for a fact can house life. If I believed mankind would never develop a faster-than-light travel should that disqualify Star Trek from being sci-fi? 

[KCOComics]

I was a literature minor in College. I'll share one of my favorite professors thoughts on this. 

He claimed that Edgar Allen Poe was the father of Science Fiction.  He also said Poe was the founder of detective stories.   

Keep in mind,  I'm passing on someone's opinion. This isn't researched,  but it is something I always thought about. 

[VintageComics]

On 11/27/2023 at 8:02 PM, MattTheDuck said:

I am quite sure, were we to able to travel there and understand the language, we would find numerous fantastical tales told around the campfires of antiquity that we would easily recognize as "science fiction."  Ancient alien researchers and theorists find much evidence in ancient writings such as the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Sanxingdui documents.

There are MANY credible people who believe that previously existing races of humans were much more capable of tech than we give them credit for, and some even believe they were FAR more advanced than we were. 

Stuff like the pyramids around the world and other structures defy logic and reality as we understand it unless you accept that they could do things we couldn't do.

Aliens? Maybe.

Or just an ancient race that found alien material? Maybe.

On an interesting side note in this vein, some people believe that the only reason aliens are being discussed in the public sphere is because it's yet another fabricated public distraction to take eyes off of other things. One theory purports that the authorities have actually captured ancient tech and harnessed it and are putting out the alien story as a distraction. 

There are CERTAINLY things that Ancients can do that we still haven't figured out to do. That is without question. Again, the ancient pyramids defy all logic and reality unless they knew something we didn't. And that point is pretty much irrefutable. 

[musicmeta]

On 11/27/2023 at 3:35 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Frankenstein is science fiction to me, and it doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with outer space.

I feel the same way. 

[VintageComics]

On 11/27/2023 at 8:56 PM, Sauce Dog said:

I personally don't see any reason why we won't eventually create human life from scratch (though that word needs to be defined, as it is very vague on exactly what you mean. Are you talking about scratch as in, Carl Sagan's apple pie from scratch?). I find the idea of creating life from the dead even more probably, as we are already working with a system of materials that we know for a fact can house life. If I believed mankind would never develop a faster-than-light travel should that disqualify Star Trek from being sci-fi? 

I don't think anyone will ever be able to bring back the dead to life, and I don't mean using CPR on a stopped heart. 

I mean once someone passes a certain point, you're never bringing them back. 

If that happens, I'll obviously eat my words and my shorts, but based on everything I know (which I will concede doesn't even fill a thimble) and understand about life in general, never going to happen. 

On 11/27/2023 at 8:56 PM, Sauce Dog said:

Nah, what you are describing basically sounds like getting into the debate on the differences between soft-scifi and hard-scifi. I don't find 'truth' value a meaningful distinction, as every story genre has a component of truth (be it literal or metaphorical) for the basis of the story.

I think truth is absolute and can't be recreated. It either is, or it isn't. 

Many will disagree, but that's a philosophical and religious discussion. 

Truth is not a relative thing in my world. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by VintageComics

[namisgr]

On 11/27/2023 at 8:02 PM, MattTheDuck said:

I am quite sure, were we to able to travel there and understand the language, we would find numerous fantastical tales told around the campfires of antiquity that we would easily recognize as "science fiction."  Ancient alien researchers and theorists find much evidence in ancient writings such as the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Sanxingdui documents.

I think that would fall under the category of myth rather than science fiction.  But mythology and science fiction do have overlap.

For me, Frankenstein is better characterized as a horror story.

Edited November 28, 2023 by namisgr

[Sauce Dog]

On 11/27/2023 at 9:03 PM, VintageComics said:

I don't think anyone will ever be able to bring back the dead to life, and I don't mean using CPR on a stopped heart. 

I mean once someone passes a certain point, you're never bringing them back. 

If that happens, I'll obviously eat my words and my shorts, but based on everything I know (which I will concede doesn't even fill a thimble) and understand about life in general, never going to happen. 

I think truth is absolute and can't be recreated. It either is, or it isn't. 

Many will disagree, but that's a philosophical and religious discussion. 

Truth is not a relative thing in my world. 

Medical science has progressed well beyond what once was deemed impossible, so no reason to say it would be impossible to reach a point that we can counteract the brain death that occurs (which is the main reason we cannot resuscitate people after a certain point). The issue I'm raising is you are confidently saying NEVER, how did you reach that absolute conclusion? 

Your line "truth is absolute and can't be recreated" ...what does that mean, exactly? Of course things are a binary in the sense of logical absolutes. Something is or it isn't as per the law of identity, but 'can't be recreated' seems nonsensical to me, sorry. Not sure what that has to do with you saying the sci-fi genre can be identified because it contains a truth (which I contest as all genres contain 'truth' and so doesn't help to separate sci-fi from them in a unique way)

oh and Frankenstein is soft sci-fi (Frankenhooker however is camp horror)

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Sauce Dog