ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[wiparker824]

On 1/5/2024 at 5:12 AM, Sigur Ros said:

He can't forge, because then the inner well would be open/missing  (please tell me CGC would catch that 🙏).

Maybe he's not doing anything, or maybe he's swapping out for lesser grade or green label SS.

This is why I think these SS books being on this list are the most problematic for CGC. If they are fraudulent I don’t see a way this doesn’t involve an insider at CGC to help, at least in a way to be profitable enough to make it worth it. But even having these books on the list causes a problem for CGC, you’re basically saying you can’t verify they were witnessed sigs now, so if someone bought one of these and sends it back to CGC they can’t possibly retain the yellow label, which is different than those sending back blue labels on this book that could come back exactly as they were sent, same grade and label with a new cert. The yellow labels are automatically going to the pile of compensation. And if let’s say this person sold this AF15 off privately for example whoever has it isn’t going to just easily be able to replace it even if you compensate with FMV. There are only 3 in SS at 6.5, 5 in SS graded higher. You may be waiting years to see another one in yellow label that high of grade come to market.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/5/2024 at 9:32 AM, wiparker824 said:

so if someone bought one of these and sends it back to CGC they can’t possibly retain the yellow label

Why wouldn’t the AF 15 retain its yellow label?  I believe the only reason it’s on the list is because it was reholdered.

[EastEnd1]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:27 PM, Ccccccccccccc said:

I registered so I could ignore some people in this thread 🙏

I've actually doubled my people on "ignore" with this thread.  Was a great evidence based thread until some silly people showed up more recently.

[EastEnd1]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:34 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

No, actually its just how some people hear think.

In their minds CGC market values are down now, but only till they want to sell their own books.

Tell that story to all the dealers still trying to get pandemic pricing...

[sledgehammer]

On 1/5/2024 at 8:29 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What’s the cost of getting a reholder with a custom label?

A lot less than the cost for all of the actual 9.8s he sent in to get new grades.

[wiparker824]

On 1/5/2024 at 7:36 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Why wouldn’t the AF 15 retain its yellow label?  I believe the only reason it’s on the list is because it was reholdered.

Because you’re admitting this individual was capable of swapping out reholdered. And unlike the blue labels where you just have to verify grade is actually correct to verify the book wasn’t swapped out with a yellow label you have to verify the signature too. Which CGC has never verified signatures, they’ve only ever given yellow labels to books they witnessed. 

[sledgehammer]

On 1/5/2024 at 8:39 AM, wiparker824 said:

On 1/5/2024 at 8:36 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Why wouldn’t the AF 15 retain its yellow label?  I believe the only reason it’s on the list is because it was reholdered.

Because you’re admitting this individual was capable of swapping out reholdered. And unlike the blue labels where you just have to verify grade is actually correct to verify the book wasn’t swapped out with a yellow label you have to verify the signature too. Which CGC has never verified signatures, they’ve only ever given yellow labels to books they witnessed. 

The AF 15 is unique. We've now seen nothing changed between the old yellow, and custom label yellow versions.

If he can convince CGC that a holder was not opened, even yellow would be susceptible.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/5/2024 at 9:39 AM, wiparker824 said:

Because you’re admitting this individual was capable of swapping out reholdered. And unlike the blue labels where you just have to verify grade is actually correct to verify the book wasn’t swapped out with a yellow label you have to verify the signature too. Which CGC has never verified signatures, they’ve only ever given yellow labels to books they witnessed. 

But you can see from the front cover that it’s the same book that was reholdered.

[wiparker824]

On 1/5/2024 at 7:42 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

But you can see from the front cover that it’s the same book that was reholdered.

Then it shouldn’t be on the list at all. My point is if you’re asking someone that potentially bought it to send it back to you to verify what exactly are they verifying? Because if you’re verifying grade then you are implying that it might have been swapped and then you have to verify signature. This isn’t just the case for this book, this is the case for all yellow labels on this list. This book may be removed from the list for the reason you mentioned, but as long as it’s up there it’s problematic.

[MAR1979]

On 1/5/2024 at 9:36 AM, EastEnd1 said:

I've actually doubled my people on "ignore" with this thread. 

Same 4 me

[sledgehammer]

On 1/5/2024 at 8:46 AM, wiparker824 said:

Then it shouldn’t be on the list at all. My point is if you’re asking someone that potentially bought it to send it back to you to verify what exactly are they verifying? Because if you’re verifying grade then you are implying that it might have been swapped and then you have to verify signature. This isn’t just the case for this book, this is the case for all yellow labels on this list. This book may be removed from the list for the reason you mentioned, but as long as it’s up there it’s problematic.

If I owned the AF 15, and I wasn't scamboy, I would call CGC and ask them "Hey, what is it that you need to review about my $80,000 comic??.

If it's scamboy, SOOL.

 

[EastEnd1]

On 1/5/2024 at 1:04 AM, drotto said:

I agree 100%, when you finally get around to saying it.  

The likely realities of the current CGC and comic book market

1. There may be a short term hit on values of comic books related to this. Especially with the seemingly highly manipulated books.  But, the market will correct and recover at some point.

2. Grading in collectables is a modern day reality.  It is in comics, coins, video game, cards, money, stamps, even Funco Pops.  It is not going away since the collecting comminutes as a whole has deemed the service valuable.  Like it or not.

3. CGC graded books, may get a short term hit in value, but will continue to sell for more then raw comics. There are too many dealers that pin their lively hood on selling slabbed books, and there are too many auction houses that depend on it. This is especially true for high value key books. While most books are still raw overall, the majority of high value books have been slabbed. How many raw AF15's do you see any more.  Raw X-Men #1.  You get my point.  They are out there, but getting ever harder to find. 

4.  No matter how much people complain about the slabs, raise your hand if you think there is a new mass cracking of books going on, because of this scandal. I just do not see it happening.  Most people will not crack their books out, if they were not the collectors that were doing this before the scandal. When those books are eventually sold, they will therefor still be in slabs. 

5. This is unlikely to be the end of CGC. Weakened in the short term. In need of getting consumer confidence back, but this will pass. There is also no strong competitor waiting to pounce. 

6. Most comic collectors are either not aware this is going on or only somewhat aware. Those of us posting here, obsessing over the details, and acting like the sky is falling, are the minority.  Now, it is great we are here, because those same obsessive people are the ones that actual protect the hobby. 

 

If this upsets some people, I am sorry. I am trying to be a realist with all of this. 

 

I mostly agree with this, UNLESS further scandals happen in succession because the old holders are too easy to open and reseal without a noticeable defect.  Transparency into that issue is still muted.  

[wiparker824]

On 1/5/2024 at 7:49 AM, sledgehammer said:

If I owned the AF 15, and I wasn't scamboy, I would call CGC and ask them "Hey, what is it that you need to review about my $80,000 comic??.

If it's scamboy, SOOL.

 

Yep, and it’s most likely still with the scammer. We don’t see a public online sale for it and we know the channels he used online to sell. So if it was sold at all, and probably was not, it was privately. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/5/2024 at 9:49 AM, sledgehammer said:

If I owned the AF 15, and I wasn't scamboy, I would call CGC and ask them "Hey, what is it that you need to review about my $80,000 comic??.

If it's scamboy, SOOL.

 

I think the scammer still owns it.

[drotto]

Another reason just dawned on me why the custom labels?  It is because he needs to turn around those multiple submission 9.8.  It may raise a red flag, if they were reporting all books in a submission were damaged and need reholdering. With the costume label, the scammer can justify it by saying, so sorry, I forgot about the costum label, can I send the submission, I just got back in to get that label. Then the reholdering would not raise a red flags. 

[drotto]

On 1/5/2024 at 9:53 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I think the scammer still owns it.

We are not going to see that AF15 unless law enforcement takes it.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/5/2024 at 9:59 AM, drotto said:

Another reason just dawned on me why the custom labels?  It is because he needs to turn around those multiple submission 9.8.  It may raise a red flag, if they were reporting all books in a submission were damaged and need reholdering. With the costume label, the scammer can justify it by saying, so sorry, I forgot about the costum label, can I send the submission, I just got back in to get that label. Then the reholdering would not raise a red flags. 

The custom labels definitely make all the reholdering less suspicious.

I doubt this scam would be possible without them

Edited January 5 by THE_BEYONDER

[MAR1979]

On 1/5/2024 at 10:00 AM, drotto said:

We are not going to see that AF15 unless law enforcement takes it.

Due to the prestige of the book, and media attention it could garner,  its the only book on list, some fed prosecutor seeking to make a bone might consider taking on. Short of that there will be no Fed investigation.

If  scammer still has the book the only intelligent move is to incinerate it ASAP.

Edited January 5 by MAR1979

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/5/2024 at 10:05 AM, MAR1979 said:

Due to the prestige of the book, and media attention it could garner,  its the only book on list, some fed prosecutor seeking to make a bone might consider taking on. Short of that there will be no Fed investigation.

If  scammer still has the book the only intelligent move is to incinerate it ASAP.

What does this particular book prove to law enforcement? There was no swap.  It was just a reholder.

[MAR1979]

On 1/5/2024 at 10:09 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What does this particular book prove to law enforcement? There was no swap.  It was just a reholder.

MAINSTREAM MEDIA attention! The Feds will then craft the narrative. Specifics go out the window