A discussion about using AI to grade comic books. 3 3

[Prince Namor]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:38 AM, VintageComics said:

That's not what the discussion is about.

Almost everyone agrees it can or will be able to do SOME of the grading chores. 

This discussion is about whether it can do ALL of the grading chores and if it's feasible (cost efficient / profitable / accurate / quick enough).

No. That WASN'T what it was about. That was what you shifted the goalposts to.

[Buzzetta]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:38 PM, VintageComics said:

That's not what the discussion is about.

Almost everyone agrees it can or will be able to do SOME of the grading chores. 

This discussion is about whether it can do ALL of the grading chores and if it's feasible (cost efficient / profitable / accurate / quick enough).

Now you are dictating terms how exactly a discussion goes.  Got it. 

Anyway

It will eventually.  The tech will catch up. 

As far as economic feasibility, the tech will catch up.  The one interesting aspect of technology is that even as it progresses it often becomes cheaper over time. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Buzzetta

[Buzzetta]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:39 PM, FlyingDonut said:

Grading cards using AI is probably coming because the hardware problems would go away.

Already here.  The question is whether or not it can break the stranglehold that PSA or Beckett have on the market.   I could easily see one of the big two or CGC buying a company like this to gain the use of their tech and implement on a broader scale towards their own card grading, or in the case of CGC cards and eventually comics. 

https://agscard.com/

https://agscard.com/about

[FlyingDonut]

On 12/25/2023 at 11:26 AM, Buzzetta said:

Already here.  The question is whether or not it can break the stranglehold that PSA or Beckett have on the market.   I could easily see one of the big two or CGC buying a company like this to gain the use of their tech and implement on a broader scale towards their own card grading, or in the case of CGC cards and eventually comics. 

https://agscard.com/

https://agscard.com/about

I would imagine that is in AGS cards' business model. Note that the automated grading part of what they're doing is easy as they appear to have solved the hardware issue.

[namisgr]

On 12/25/2023 at 12:12 AM, CAHokie said:

If we can map a brain we map some comic book pages.

 

I'd paraphrase you that since we can map brain function, we can map comic book grading.

As Donut has pointed out already, the robotics and image capturing are not examples of artificial intelligence.  Also, requisite technologies already exist for handling and imaging comics.

The part that CAHokie's post addresses is the role for machine learning.  Neuroscience has already successfully done the following with it: by implanting an ~300 microelectrode array on a part of the neocortex that oversees facial muscle movements that are required for speech, and using a machine learning algorithm to translate the ensemble of nerve cell activities recorded as a person thinks of speaking a syllable, a computer can be 'taught' to make speech for a person suffering facial muscle paralysis who has lost the ability to speak.  

Brain-reading devices allow paralysed people to talk using their thoughts

By contrast, it would be much, much easier to use machine learning and series of digitized images to develop a grading algorithm that could closely align with the comic book numerical grades assigned by a team of CGC graders.  Such a system would need development, and it may be awhile before the approach could be cost effective (i.e., cheaper per comic book than the cost per comic from a panel of graders).  But it's probably not decades away.

Edited December 25, 2023 by namisgr

[FlyingDonut]

On 12/25/2023 at 2:25 PM, namisgr said:

I'd paraphrase you that since we can map brain function, we can map comic book grading.

As Donut has pointed out already, the robotics and image capturing are not examples of artificial intelligence.  Also, requisite technologies already exist for handling and imaging comics.

The part that CAHokie's post addresses is the role for machine learning.  Neuroscience has already successfully done the following with it: by implanting an ~300 microelectrode array on a part of the neocortex that oversees facial muscle movements that are required for speech, and using a machine learning algorithm to translate the ensemble of nerve cell activities recorded as a person thinks of speaking a syllable, a computer can be 'taught' to make speech for a person suffering facial muscle paralysis who has lost the ability to speak.  

Brain-reading devices allow paralysed people to talk using their thoughts

By contrast, it would be much, much easier to use machine learning and series of digitized images to develop a grading algorithm that could closely align with the comic book numerical grades assigned by a team of CGC graders.  Such a system would need development, and it may be awhile before the approach could be cost effective (i.e., cheaper per comic book than the cost per comic from a panel of graders).  But it's probably not decades away.

Decades? If someone wanted to and the economics were there you could do it within 12 months, based on the advances in the technology now.

[namisgr]

On 12/25/2023 at 2:46 PM, FlyingDonut said:

Decades? If someone wanted to and the economics were there you could do it within 12 months, based on the advances in the technology now.

I think it'll be roughly a decade for the economics to be favorable.  The example from Neuroscience that's orders of magnitude greater in complexity than comic book grading would made clear the AI capabilities already exist for it.

[VintageComics]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:39 PM, FlyingDonut said:

On 12/24/2023 at 10:41 PM, VintageComics said:

Question 1) How do you capture head on images of pages unless you open the book 30-60 times at a 45 degree angle or greater?

Question 2) Who or what will do the opening?

Question 3) You'd need another 30-60 images of each page at an angle then?

Question 4) How much time do you foresee this taking just for one book?

These are not AI problems, they're hardware problems, but ones that could be initially handled through an human operator opening everything and imaging them. Imaging items in a high resolution and high-quality environment is not difficult. Google has been doing it for years and their systems are getting better and better.

None of the things you have talked about in this thread (or the other one) are AI issues.

I'm aware of the difference between hardware and software problems, but the hardware problem makes it an IMPLEMENTATION problem and that's really what's being discussed. 

On it's face, alone, AI can likely grade a cover quite easily but the complexity comes from multiple pages and the learning curve of facing new problems. 

I don't think the average collector realizes some of the complexities in grading. It's not NASA level complexity, but it is a new twist and if you're grading a lot of comics each day, that means EACH DAY new combinations or types of defects are found and graders need to rethink things. 

These sorts of things are usually talked through in seconds among graders and learned from.

For an AI program it would stop the assembly line until you can teach it a new way to deal with it. 

On 12/24/2023 at 11:39 PM, FlyingDonut said:

its just learning and continual examples teaching the system how it works. Grading cards using AI is probably coming because the hardware problems would go away.

Correct, and that's where @JC25427N was actively discussing the software and learning issues in the quotes that I copied over from the other thread. 

Grading cards is apparently already here on a small scale. 

The hardware issue is the problem. 

On 12/25/2023 at 12:12 AM, CAHokie said:

If we can map a brain we map some comic book pages. It would learn the more it does. I believe the image capturing would be able to grab everything it needs from normal speed turning of pages.

 

I'm not so sure, but that's why we're having this discussion. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 12/25/2023 at 11:20 AM, Buzzetta said:

Now you are dictating terms how exactly a discussion goes.  Got it. 

Well, it IS my thread, right?  

But more specifically, the discussion came out of the scam in the #252 thread and it was ALWAYS about using AI to grade comics to prevent scams and improve consistency, so yeah, the discussion was about the grading process and not just one aspect of grading, like PQ, which I have already agreed multiple times, including in that thread, that AI was already capable of doing. 

Besides, CGC has already started using AI in some aspects. Why would be be debating that when it's already begun?

On 12/25/2023 at 11:20 AM, Buzzetta said:

It will eventually.  The tech will catch up. 

As far as economic feasibility, the tech will catch up.  The one interesting aspect of technology is that even as it progresses it often becomes cheaper over time. 

Of course. The question is when?

Edited December 25, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 12/25/2023 at 2:48 PM, namisgr said:

On 12/25/2023 at 2:46 PM, FlyingDonut said:

Decades? If someone wanted to and the economics were there you could do it within 12 months, based on the advances in the technology now.

I think it'll be roughly a decade for the economics to be favorable.  The example from Neuroscience that's orders of magnitude greater in complexity than comic book grading would made clear the AI capabilities already exist for it.

It sounds like you're saying that it like will be economically feasible once bio-digital convergence becomes a regular thing, which is what I'd already stated. 

A decade sounds far more realistic to me than the people who think it can be done feasibly today. 

 

[Cat]

On 12/26/2023 at 6:41 AM, VintageComics said:

 

Edited for CAHokie, in the spirit of Boxing Day.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Cat

[CAHokie]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:23 PM, Cat said:

A thread belongs to the community, so quit being your usual overbearing self and dictating the flow of conversation under the auspices of 'it's my toy waaah'. 

Grow up and lose your ego. It's not endearing. 

I think he was parroting a comment aimed at him before but otherwise, yes, the community and moderators decide.
 

Can you guys not go at each other even on Christmas? The stuff written different places from both sides are ridiculous. Aren’t all of you over 55 already?  Why not just block him and enjoy the peace? 

[Cat]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:37 AM, CAHokie said:

I think he was parroting a comment aimed at him before but otherwise, yes, the community and moderators decide.
 

Can you guys not go at each other even on Christmas? The stuff written different places from both sides are ridiculous. Aren’t all of you over 55 already?  Why not just block him and enjoy the peace? 

I've edited mine for your sake, for the spirit of Boxing Day, whatever that may be? And nope, I'm nowhere near 55.

[CAHokie]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:23 PM, Cat said:

Edited for CAHokie, in the spirit of Boxing Day.

What does that even mean? You don’t need to edit it for my sake, I just thought it looked ridiculous.

Generally, if I think someone is a nut or has issues, I don’t spend message after message engaging them and letting them know they are a nut. I just let them go to their happy place and ramble to themselves. 

[Cat]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:31 PM, CAHokie said:

What does that even mean? You don’t need to edit it for my sake, I just thought it looked ridiculous.

Generally, if I think someone is a nut or has issues, I don’t spend message after message engaging them and letting them know they are a nut. I just let them go to their happy place and ramble to themselves. 

It doesn't mean anything other than I agreed with you and edited my post. 

[namisgr]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:31 PM, CAHokie said:

Generally, if I think someone is a nut or has issues, I don’t spend message after message engaging them and letting them know they are a nut. I just let them go to their happy place and ramble to themselves. 

What do you advise when it's a nut with issues that's done the 'engagement'?

[lizards2]

On 12/26/2023 at 4:55 AM, namisgr said:

What do you advise when it's a nut with issues that's done the 'engagement'?

"Plenty more where they came from."

- Cockroach General

[namisgr]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:29 AM, lizards2 said:

"Plenty more where they came from."

- Cockroach General

Gilbert Shelton!  

[namisgr]

Found it:

[VintageComics]

On 12/26/2023 at 7:55 AM, namisgr said:

On 12/25/2023 at 9:31 PM, CAHokie said:

Generally, if I think someone is a nut or has issues, I don’t spend message after message engaging them and letting them know they are a nut. I just let them go to their happy place and ramble to themselves. 

What do you advise when it's a nut with issues that's done the 'engagement'?

Cat has attacked me numerous times on these forums, as have others. They attack because they disagree, but they can't play fair or engage without producing worthwhile discussion points, so they hit below the belt to shame me or try to get my discussion shut down by moderation much like you did for over 2 years. 

I am doing my best to not engage with the attacks. I'm not perfect, but I certainly never instigate. 

This post of yours is just another clear instigation. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by VintageComics